Episode 02 Transcript
Martin O'Toole 00:31
Thank you, Duane.
Chris Siracuse 00:33
Thank you, Duane. We really should let you sing that.
Martin O'Toole 00:36
We shouldn't wait. Maybe next week,
Chris Siracuse 00:38
maybe next week, but we just enjoy it so much.
Martin O'Toole 00:40
It's a lovely song. It's beautiful. Ding ding round two Christopher
Chris Siracuse 00:44
round to welcome.
Martin O'Toole 00:46
Welcome indeed. Welcome to everyone to the How To Die Happy podcast. Episode Two
Chris Siracuse 00:54
Episode Two. It's like we haven't left this room.
Martin O'Toole 00:57
Well, we haven't. We have. We have spent a lot of time here
Chris Siracuse 01:04
we have.
Martin O'Toole 01:05
We one thing we need to do is get some more comfortable. So yeah, definitely needs some more comfortable chairs.
Chris Siracuse 01:11
Yeah. So we have spent a lot of time here. And thank you for your precious time. We certainly appreciate you supporting independent media because it is just Martin and i doing all of this.
Martin O'Toole 01:23
It is literally just as literally just as
Chris Siracuse 01:25
Oh, and the two dogs Ati and Mudah.
Martin O'Toole 01:26
Yeah, but there is there's no production team. There are no production assistants. There's no marketing team. There's no social media team. It is Chris and I so we are super grateful to to everybody for your attention. And likely your patience.
Chris Siracuse 01:45
Most certainly your patients,
Martin O'Toole 01:47
we might require a little patience through the airing of the second episode, there are a couple of technical hitches that that happened upon us in in our live recorded interview.
Chris Siracuse 01:57
There are
Martin O'Toole 01:58
so thank you in advance
Chris Siracuse 02:00
thank you in advance indeed. It's it's been quite the week,
Martin O'Toole 02:03
It has
Chris Siracuse 02:04
just to make some excuses for why I messed up technically in the second episode,
Martin O'Toole 02:10
was it the added pressure of a submarine taking out the main internet line into the land of Bali?
Chris Siracuse 02:19
That was certainly part of it.
Martin O'Toole 02:20
Or was it the fact that I threw in a whole other idea. And we had to then record something else on top of this. And as it transpired, we recorded way too close to the second interview,
Chris Siracuse 02:35
that could also be part of it.
Martin O'Toole 02:37
It could have been a lot of things. We're just making this up as we go along.
Chris Siracuse 02:40
We are we are
Martin O'Toole 02:41
So thank you. Thank you for your patience.
Chris Siracuse 02:43
Thank you for your patience. And we've been so lucky to have so many wonderful guests. Really kind of take a little bit of a leap of faith and join us and this week who do we have Martin?
Martin O'Toole 02:54
This week, we have the international best selling author, Carl Honore, who is the unofficial godfather of a growing cultural shift towards slowing down according to the Huffington Post.
Chris Siracuse 03:09
Okay, so Carl's books they include in praise of slow bolder and 30 days to slow under pressure, the power of slow and slow fix. So you'll notice a theme there.
Martin O'Toole 03:22
Oh, what—what theme?
Chris Siracuse 03:27
of slowness.
Martin O'Toole 03:28
Ah.
Chris Siracuse 03:28
Now. Now.Give us more. Go ahead, Martin.
Martin O'Toole 03:35
Sorry.
Chris Siracuse 03:35
Give us some more, some more about
Martin O'Toole 03:37
sorry.
Chris Siracuse 03:37
You just had to take it didn't ya.
Martin O'Toole 03:39
Not content with being published in 35 countries that Ted talker, Carl now travels around the world championing the slow movements a car's been. He's been the guru of slowness, hasn't he for around 15 years. And I have to say, I really, really enjoyed talking to Carl,
Chris Siracuse 03:56
he is so good.
Martin O'Toole 03:58
A true Pro.
Chris Siracuse 03:59
He really is he he just he embodies a lot of the the traits and the characteristics of people that I want to be around. And that he has, he has a certain understanding of rhythm, obviously since he's an advocate for the slow movement in this incredibly fast moving culture and context too so I think that I it was it was a treat for me to talk to him. I think he dropped a bunch of little pearls of wisdom.
Martin O'Toole 04:29
He did and he also has some wonderful turns of phrase and he does use an expression. The hurry virus hurry of the virus virus.
Chris Siracuse 04:40
The virus of hurry. That's right. I love virus of hurry.
Martin O'Toole 04:43
Very, very charming man and super witty. And obviously he taught us that we both have a lot to learn about presenting podcasts.
Chris Siracuse 04:54
And he was incredibly patient if you're listening to this. Thank you, Carl.
Martin O'Toole 04:58
Yeah, thank you, Carl. And speaking of patience, thank you to you guys for fully accepting Ati and Mudah, the two barley dogs outside who are currently chasing around yapping at each other we don't have a studio
Chris Siracuse 05:12
we don't
Martin O'Toole 05:12
we have a spare bedroom
Chris Siracuse 05:13
We have a spare bedroom. Qe actually had to change the framing of the camera to not have the bed in the background we don't want there to be any misunderstanding about Martin and I's relationship
Martin O'Toole 05:25
well I'm I'm fine with that I think I was more concerned that people to think we were like Burton Ernie. "Hey Bert!" or we literally don't need this room. From bed to studio from bed bed studio. Yeah, ordering coconuts right in amidst all of that so well I guess we could probably just get going do
Chris Siracuse 05:47
you want to jump into it?
Martin O'Toole 05:48
I reckon we jump in and we listened to to our second ever episode and a really fun conversation with Carl Honore.
Chris Siracuse 05:57
Episode two of the How To Die Happy podcast enjoy.
Martin O'Toole 06:08
Carl... What's your opinion on sloths?
Carl Honoré 06:18
I I'm a big fan of sloths. Yeah, I mean I I wouldn't say that I'm on Team sloth. But a lot of time for them. I don't want them. I don't want them cancelled. I don't, I don't wear sloth merchandise, or have a sloth t shirts. Mostly if someone speaks. If someone speaks fondly of Softs of sloths, then I'm I'm okay, I'm okay with that. I have never I don't have ever tweeted about sloths or shared a meme. But there's the first time there's the first time I think in the great scheme of things, you know, if you imagine a big Venn diagram of ideas and philosophies of life, if there's a bubble or circle for sloths, then I'm sure there's a little bit of overlap between that bubble and my bubble of you know, okay, so maybe
Martin O'Toole 07:15
Maybe I'm gonna be controversial now them because I, I really struggle with loss. And I spent the last few years really getting around the concept of judgement. to the, to the point where I think I'm a pretty accepting guy these days of all manner of stuff, but honestly, every time I see a sloth, and we don't have sloths, in Bali, by the way, I'm talking about photography or memes or videos. They freak me out. What Any opinion?
Chris Siracuse 07:44
They're, they're weird. They're definitely weird. They have this rhythm? They are.
Carl Honoré 07:51
They are because if you think about the whole kind of animal menagerie that is Disney, there is no sloths. There's no Disney sloth.
Martin O'Toole 07:59
No, well that's there's a good reason for that is because they're absolutely terrifying. I mean, how do you make a slot look friendly?
Carl Honoré 08:05
There's something slightly creepy about them. I agree. I'm not as a general rule, a huge fan of small furry animals, you know, just across the board. But if I had to put them in a league table, like definitely sloths would not be just for aesthetic reasons maybe more than anything else would not be in my top five. There's they also suffer from a branding problem, right? I mean, there's a praetor
Martin O'Toole 08:28
It's one of the seven deadly sins. It's one of the seven deadly sins it doesn't stack up does it doesn't stack up for th e sloth.
Carl Honoré 08:35
no, there it's the cards are stacked against them linguistically. So I, I have five sympathy for sloths. And I, I think that they're that you know, as it happens, weirdly, I say that I don't pay much attention to them. But a couple of weeks ago, I found myself listening to a short podcast about sloths
Martin O'Toole 08:47
People are making podcasts about sloths?!
Carl Honoré 08:55
it wasn't all about sloths, I think was it was, you know, one item in a larger podcast and I didn't skip through it. I did listen to it because it was somebody who had a walk. It was a female scientist. What's her name? She's a bit of a sloth. She's like the slot whisperer, right? She's the person who has put she put sloths on the map. Apparently, I can't remember her name. She's English. Thinking. After hearing her I'm ever thinking you know what? Maybe I need to give sloths a second look, you know, maybe maybe I've been I've written them off to too quickly, right? Maybe I should slow down and give them a little bit more. More time a day.
Martin O'Toole 09:29
You just made me think of john lennon. I can hear john lennon singing a modified version of All, we saying is give sloths a chance.
Chris Siracuse 09:41
Well, and for the sake of your work and your message, Carl. I wonder is it the slowness that makes sloths creepy? Is it that because we'll go ahead. Yeah.
Carl Honoré 09:59
Yeah. I think it's the extreme slowness of sloths that they there's a question of degree here because we don't necessarily find all slow things creepy i don't i mean i think we find many of them glorious you can find moments of a ballet when things move down to a very gentle pace can be extraordinary uplifting and and magical right? I don't think we necessarily automatically recoil from all things slow I clearly don't think that otherwise I would have dedicated my life to helping people slipped out because that would have been worse than a sticky wicket right but I think there's something about the slot that is so slow right? It's almost it moves so slowly that it's movement is almost imperceptible. I think we maybe find that a little alarming that maybe if we're digging right down into what it is about sloths unnerves us it may be the extremes. Yeah, it could be that
Martin O'Toole 10:55
that's that's a fair point i you've now got me questioning my inner self is our is one of the things that upsets me about Sloss. The fact that it takes them just so long to do anything. I don't know now I think it's the claws is definitely the claws that I don't get that. It's like a nightmare on elm street with a furry creature.
Chris Siracuse 11:16
It is it is
Martin O'Toole 11:17
but but you you have dedicated your life's work to the slowness movement. So how's How is that going? Because you've, every time I look you bringing out a new book, new best selling book. You do. Ted Talks, you You're all over the world chatting about this stuff. You don't seem to have much of a slow life of it. If you don't mind me saying,
Carl Honoré 11:42
well, you're not the first person to say that. And I understand why people come to that conclusion. But it's it's just to arrive on that is to misunderstand what slow is right? That slow with a capital S the whole kind of slow movement is not about you know, doing nothing lazing around on the sofa, throwing away your iPhone, be coming soon, super soft light. I mean, it's it's much more sensible and reasonable that it's about doing things. I mean, it's a really simple idea. At its core, it's about doing things at the right speed. So musicians talk about the tempo giusto, right, the correct tempo for each piece of music. And that kind of gets at the heart of what this slow culture quake is about. It's about doing things at the right speed. So sometimes Sure, you've got to be fast. So sometimes, yeah, I will hop on the plane and fly somewhere. Sometimes I might play fast sports, I play hockey, I play squash, sometimes you got to run very fast to get the ball right. But not always, that's the key that faster isn't always better. There are times to slow things down as well. So in a way, I think slow is bigger than just what's the velocity here. It's it's a mindset. It's a chip, right? It's arriving at each moment thinking, How can I get through this moment not as fast as possible, but as well as possible, right? So that implies being present, being in the moment doing one thing at a time. I mean, you remember when we used to do that? It's quality before quantity, right? It's ultimately a really simple idea. It's just do things as well as possible instead of as fast as possible. And then obviously, once you take that slow chip, slot it in and arrive at each moment with that spirit, total game changer, right? Because instead of racing through your life, you're actually living it. And then at that point, each person designs their own version of slow so my life to me feels immensely slow. I never feel rushed. Don't feel stressed. I'm not watching the clock I used to do all the time, I was the person who was counting every millisecond and racing from one thing to the next. I get a lot done and I have a lot of fun, and I will die happy, right? Because I'm getting good good. Like, I don't ever feel rushed. Yeah. And that's the that's the tectonic seismic shift that you can bring about in your life, right is moving away from feeling that every moment is a race against the clock, to a place where you're moving through your day. unencumbered by time right unworried by the passage of time, you're just there doing it, getting the most out of it, and moving on to the next thing. And that That, to me is what slow is all about. So, just to circle back to your original question, you know, some people will look and say, well, that you know, to me that's, that's not very slow. But what really matters is what I'm feeling on the inside and if I feel it's slow, then it's slow, right? Because what's slow to me might not be slow to you and what's you know, very fast you might seem to be okay and or it might seem too fast or suit, you know, so it's about finding the right recipe and balance and tempo for each person and each moment.
Martin O'Toole 14:42
Nice. I love what you said there about this is what matters is how it feels to you inside because I think that's so important, isn't it? We're we're often misjudged like a book cover in that regard. I have people occasionally say to me You don't seem all that calm and peaceful despite discussing calm and calmness and peace on a regular basis and talking about sort of learning about Zen. And you know, the Tao de Ching and the greatness of nothing. Yet even my learned colleague might say, what did you describe me as in a trailer earlier on? Tasmanian devil?
Chris Siracuse 15:23
Well, well, as far as rhythm and as far as energy the the cartoon the Tasmanian devil. Yeah. So because yeah, and there is a certain I wouldn't say a contradiction, but a an interesting contrast, I would say, in Martin, and that way, but yeah, it speaks to exactly what you're saying, though, Carl, which is its relative. And this is some I'm so happy to hear you describe it in that way. Because it's something I've been thinking a lot about the past few weeks working with Martin and seeing how Martin works, that it doesn't insane how we've been working together, that even though we've been getting a lot done, it doesn't like you said it doesn't feel rushed. We're not racing against the clock, and we don't, we're moving and maybe a fast pace of if it was objective we measured, but to us it's the right rhythm.
Martin O'Toole 15:30
Yeah, remember that? Yeah. And I think also... What's that expression Time flies when you're having fun. So I think when you are really in the zone in the moment of something and you're really enjoying it, time and space ceased to exist the same way as they do for for those poor people who are counting the minutes and the hours. So in that regard, I don't know I in that regard, I think there is a methodical rhythm and beat into how we go about doing it. But I was interested, I'm sure you've been asked this question a million times Carl, what was it that first inspired you to, to start or to become an ambassador for slowness?
Carl Honoré 16:52
Well, I think that when we get stuck in fast forward or Road Runner mode, it always takes some kind of shock to the system or a wake up call to make you realise that you've forgotten how to put on the brakes. And that this is doing you real harm and for a lot of people that wake up call comes in the form of an illness right? It's the body who one day just says no, I can't do this. No, I can't take the pace anymore and I don't really have a burnout or you can't get out of bed One morning I had a very different wake up call thankfully. Mine came when I started reading bedtime stories to my son and back in those days I really just couldn't slow down but I'd go in his room at the end of the day. Sit on his bed with one foot on the floor and speed read Snow White yeah
Martin O'Toole 17:38
What, there were just two dwarfs?
Carl Honoré 17:40
Yeah, well Exactly. I became an expert in what I thought of it as the multiple page turn techniques. It's like you sneak three four pages, but it never works because the kids you know, he knew the stories back to front so yeah, so why are there only three doors? What happened a grumpy and it's wrong, right? But that I just couldn't I just couldn't stop and then I had the wake up call when I found myself flirting with buying a book I'd read about in a newspaper It was called a one minute bedtime story. So Snow White in 60 seconds. I remember thinking I lose. I need that now. Amazon drone delivery but then you know the light bulb went off in my head. Now what is this is ridiculous. Am I really prepared to fall off my little boy with a soundbite said the story at the end of the day and that was one of those moments like an out of body experience you know when you suddenly see yourself in sharp relief from the side and I just that what I see her is just ugly it's unedifying, and it's totally wrong right and if I die now I'm not gonna die happy right you're just gonna be happy so I you know that was that was for me that was hitting rock bottom and that's why wow pause and started changing everything so I didn't go down the burnout route right The other way is to have a burnout or have a heart attack I didn't it was yeah I'm sorry A much healthier epiphany, right?
Martin O'Toole 18:57
Very much. And I didn't have a heart attack but I certainly had a burnout rule it was so yeah, I think you you gave yourself a gift there without without popping your brain first. But so so once you had that realisation, what do you do? What was your journey, did you so obviously your speed reading books, but are you are you life hacking everything at this point? Are you speeding around? Are you not in the present moment? Are you not? Do you have no mindfulness techniques? was it was it was this like a, a moment of clarity that that made you realise, hang on a minute, this this kid's book is the pinnacle of the iceberg? I actually need to do a lot of work here.
Carl Honoré 19:41
Yeah, it's it's the ladder. I think one of the ironies today is that people are in such a rush that they want to slow down fast. They will have an epiphany like a health meltdown or a bedtime story, wake up moment, and then suddenly they'll think Well, okay, I need to slow down and reconnect with my inner tortoise. So they sign up for yoga. And then they run across the street to do some meditation, then they rush home to, you know, have cook a slow meal, you know, fast version of slow, and then they get to work right? Because slowing down is a process it takes time. These are deep changes in behaviour habit. Feeling spirit, you don't just download an app and tomorrow morning it's all fine. You know, you don't you know go to on a workshop and a week later, you've got the intercom and the Dalai Lama. It doesn't happen that way. Right? It's a long process, slowing down is slow. It takes time, right? If you're going to do it, right. And you do you play around you do. trial and error you test you use that phrase life hacks. I mean, you try techniques, I always feel like the even the phrase itself life hacking to me sounds that feels like fast culture with a capital F, it sounds like yeah, there's a little thing on it. Now one of my phone, boom, I've sorted this out, I will move on to the next thing. So I feel like languages language is important, right? And I so I tend to stay away from saying things like life hacks, I know that you know that those those words land well with certain demographics. And it's, you know, it's so I'm not calling off your language, I'm just saying, as part of my answer to your question, it's important to frame your deceleration. As a journey, right? It's something that's going to take time it's not something you just hack and it's done. Right, and it's never over, it's a little bit like being I think a little bit like being an alcoholic, right? That you're, even if you stop drinking, and you're you there's also danger, you'll fall off the waggon, right, so if you've been a speedo Holic, as I definitely was, somebody who just every moment of my day was, was a dash to the finish line. When you move away from that over time, you've always got to be alert to the fact that the temptation is there to fall back, you know, you might just a little bit, you know, it's like having a little whiff of vodka or something little whiff of speed, you know, you might see Rob, it's got to be sort of vigilant that you don't fall back into the old ways, or tumble off the waggon again, but just to finish up there, you know, there are loads of things that over time I worked out, in my own context, my own life that worked for me, as techniques, or habits or rituals, or hacks, if you want to use the word hack, you know, things like so I do things like meditation, I do yoga, I have very strict use of mobile phone time, you know, screen time, I make sure I don't read I try not to read on screens. As I you know, I read books in paper form, because I've done all the research looking at how that's a different experience of reading a deeper, slower, more soothing one. So there, there are lots of things that one can do. And there's a, you know, I've put together slow tips that I think I'm up to sort of 65 of them. So there are many, many things people can do. But the trouble is, I just I guess, let me just round it off this by saying this, that if, if you want to slow down, the way to do it is not to pick six really good tips, and then go for those right, it's got to be part of a bigger, deeper shift. And then the tips and the techniques come into play and are super important. I'm not diminishing their importance. But the tips come later, right? There's a I think there's deeper, wider existential homework and housekeeping needs to go on first, if the tips are going to land and make any kind of meaningful shift and change in your life.
Martin O'Toole 23:26
Hmm, so actually, the first step is awareness.
Carl Honoré 23:31
Yeah, the first step is awareness. The first step is and then once you get awareness then a lot of long nights of the soul a lot of talking with yourself a lot of letting the mind wander a lot of talking with the people around you just you don't I just caution people not to get the slow bit between their teeth and run with it right? Just go do it slow, slow down slowly, right? That's the way it will stick and work out what's what's right for you. Yeah, there's a lot of thinking that goes on I think before you work out what is the right recipe of rituals and techniques and so on, that's gonna, that's going to light you up. To do that, do that do that thinking homework first, that deep reflection, right? Because this is a society obsessed with speed infected in every corner by the virus of hurry. And that means we're a society built on reaction rather than reflection. And when people do have that slow down wake up moment, very often our responses to react so I got to do something right. You know, get out there do something about the fact that I'm too fast. When if you know the old expression, don't just sit there do something, right? Well, actually, the wisest approach is very often to flip that around and say don't just do something sit there, right. Mumford with the, the the anxiety, the worry of it, and first you break through it with taking time to think to see the big picture to join the dots to get to know yourself again, because when you get stuck and fast forward, you get disconnected from yourself from your body, for your mind from your spirit, you lose sense of who you are. And you don't bring that back by snapping your fingers. With 10 seconds of awareness that takes time. But it's the best investment of time you'll ever make, right? But take the time, please slow down first, upfront, take the time, get the big picture filled out, and then put in the details with the hack here, the tip there, the technique there, the ritual over there, and then build on your own picture of slow,
Martin O'Toole 25:26
I thi I think that's great advice for anyone who's looking for a place to start on their slowness journey. There's a wonderful book, I don't know if you guys have read it, it's, it's by a guy called Benjamin Hoff. And it's the Tao of Pooh. And it's so you know that, you know, the Tao, the Tao of poo, but I'll explain in a second, because it is a bit of a weird title, you know, the Tao de ching ching. So obviously, Confucianism, these guys are always talking about the great nothing, right? So essentially, it's an alternate version of what Carl's talking about i.e. actually that there's a lot to be found, well, there's everything, or at least something to be found in doing nothing. But you have to slow down to a place where you do nothing in the first place. So what Benjamin Hoff did— wonderful—and I recommend anybody read this book, after you've read all Carl's books, and the wonderful thing he does in this book is he talks about, so it's, it's a, it's a conversation between Pooh Bear and Christopher Robin, and Poor Bear's friends. Because actually, what Hoff's identified is that poohbear is the epitome of the Tao Te Ching, that, you know, he's, he's very slow, he's very calm, very wise. And he embraces the concept of nothing to the world, arguably, to an existential degree. But it's a really, really charming book. And I recommend anybody read the book, when you were talking just made me think about, actually, when we think about doing nothing, and I think you highlighted this earlier, it's got a negative connotation, in today's society, and, and we've got it wrong. We've totally got it wrong anyway, without a doubt and certainly my own experience when I finally slowed down after my third nervous breakdown, and you were talking about alcoholics, I was an alcoholic and a drug addict. When I finally did that, that work, which actually wound up being the most important work I've ever done in my life, I spent 18 months you know, comparatively doing nothing and it was just going inward. We have a section or a segment on on How To Die Happy Carlm and it's, it's brought to us by a Mangku Priest hadn't even been to Bali, but we have a type of priest here. The monk who priest is kinda like the light Bringer, the leader. We have a friend of the show he's called ketut. So what did what did we ask it took this week, I can't remember what it was. We asked Ketut if he were to give advice to someone who was having a hard time slowing down their brain? What would What advice would he give? So I guess I'll play what he said. And let's let's discuss him
Chris Siracuse 28:25
and the theme. Sorry, the, the theme that we gave Qatar was the rhythm of life inspired by you, Carl.
Mangku Ketut 28:43
If the asking you know, I mean there's nothing wrong with the past and then slower because he's the band. If you love it, if you happy with that rhythm, you know, you can enjoy it, that's the more important if the fast you cannot enjoy, then you need to slow down. The first thing is, again, a back to your body again, that's even more important. Because when you fast and then you cannot controlling know, when you back again, you are like riding the horse. You know, it's all in the hands of you. You know, if you want to slow down, you had that. You have that control in you. You have the choice. If you can that mean like you're not alive. And now you're in you in control the horse controlling you not you are riding the horse.
Chris Siracuse 29:34
You hear that? Okay, Carl?
Carl Honoré 29:36
I did hear that. Yes. And that very much resonates with me, I'll pluck out two words. He said their control and choice. I mean, I love the metaphor of the horse. Whether you're bucking along in the back of the horse, or whether you're actually controlling the horse, I mean, so often we have the choice to pick the tempo that works for us, but we allow ourselves either just to be shunted along by other people's tempo or we assume that we don't have that autonomy. But I think I think of the phrase temporal autonomy, right? having control over your time is at the core of what slow is all about that choosing how to use your time, and at what speed or rhythm to live each moment. And yeah, I couldn't I couldn't agree more with what was I didn't catch his name.
Martin O'Toole 30:20
Ketut.
Carl Honoré 30:21
Right? Yeah. Yeah. So one other thing, man. As I was listening to him, I was thinking something as well. That if you think of sports, right, especially elite sports, the top the top athletes and it's a football or something or hockey or anything, the one thing that the like say Lionel Messi, say, or someone like that, right? For the top players, the one thing they all have in common, is that they're never rushed. They always have enough time. And, you know, someone like Messi can, in the right moment. Absolutely eviscerate you with superhuman speed. But he's not running like a headless chicken constantly, he'll stop Sometimes he'll stop and put his foot on the ball, right and slow things down, and then move forward. So it's about that kind of that art of shifting gears of choosing the right speed. And at the same time on the inside, you know, he plays with joy, right? He's happy. He's at his the right tempo for him on the inside. So he doesn't feel rushed. And that's what separates all the men from the boys, I suppose the elite from the water carriers, and every sport is the top players are never rushed. They always seem to have enough time, even if they're moving at really, really high speeds, right?
Martin O'Toole 31:30
Yeah, no doubt about that. And do you think? So? Since you adopted this, when was it? When was it you first adopted your your main slowness practices?
Carl Honoré 31:42
Oh, we're talking a long time ago now. Good, 15 odd years.
Martin O'Toole 31:48
And so in after that, after that, that pivotal moment in last 15 years, if you noticed, physical benefits. And as well as, I guess, also mental benefits, if you seen an ongoing improvement in your own mental and physical health as a result of becoming slower,
Carl Honoré 32:10
I think, definitely, that's one of the so those are some of the main benefits of slowing down is getting your physical and mental house in order, right, you know, because you're sleeping better you're resting and recharging, which is absolutely vital. For mind and body, you're eating better. You're just you're less stressed. We know that stress takes all kinds of toll on the body physically, emotionally, and so on. So you you've just forced a whole new equation for yourself as you're moving through life and an ageing as well. So I yeah, I mean, you one could never do a control experiment, right? So I can't compare Road Runner Carl at my age, you know, to Carl now but, you know, I've physically and mentally feel, you know, a lot of ways top of my game.
Chris Siracuse 32:56
You know, there's there's this great mix of ancient wisdom that you seem to be tapped into Carl, with this modern knowledge, I would say, yeah, since moving here, I feel like what's the best way to describe it? I mean, as Martin said, there are a lot of people that come to Bali for, for healing, so to speak, you know it as they call it, the island of the gods. And there's the first thing I recognise when I got here. Well, first time I was here in 2016. Was that something about the rhythm and the Balinese people they have, they have this innate understanding of, of cycles think this is probably related to Hinduism. And they understand. Yeah, they're they seem to understand and be aware of where they are in a given cycle. Which, which, to me, I see that and they just always seem like they're on time. And I don't mean on time, in the sense
Martin O'Toole 33:53
They're never on time.
Chris Siracuse 33:54
Yeah, well, they're actually never on time. But, but that time they are on their time. First thing you notice about being involved is that nothing is on time on time in the western sense, but on but like you said, Carl has this idea of temporal autonomy. I love that I think that's so brilliant. You get the sense that the Balinese really own that concept of temporal autonomy.
Martin O'Toole 34:18
Yeah.
Chris Siracuse 34:18
And
Martin O'Toole 34:19
like, they got their own dimension,
Chris Siracuse 34:21
they do have their own dimension, and you are kind of forced in a nice loving way to to to get onto that time, and it's almost hard to
Martin O'Toole 34:30
Or get out!
Chris Siracuse 34:31
or get out because you really don't have a choice. It's It's almost as if they recognise that people coming from the west that that we do operate at a speed that is unnatural, and that is
Martin O'Toole 34:42
truth.
Chris Siracuse 34:43
And they they seem to have a certain empathy for us and compassion. Because of that.
Martin O'Toole 34:49
It's funny, so we most of us ride motorbikes.
Chris Siracuse 34:52
Yeah, I think so
Martin O'Toole 34:54
most of us ride motorbikes around Bali, primarily because it's it's a lot easier to get around. Right, because all the roads are so narrow, and you tend to you find yourself observing people on bikes all the time. And of course, you will, more often than not when you hear RAAAAA, you know, that is a foreigner foreign visitor, chugging their bike around. But actually we were having this conversation with a Balinese person the other day who said, I think you the the foreigners are now influencing the locals, because people, local people seem to be speeding around a lot more. And it didn't ever used to do that. And you know, I don't know if you've been behind a Balinese person on a scooter. I'm sure you have a slow one, particularly. And they're just, they're in no rush. Yeah, I'm taking my time to get past me you overtake me. But it would appear that Western I'm saying Western, in a sweep— with a sweeping generalisation. But it would appear that Western culture is now affecting Balinese Indonesian culture, and not necessarily in a positive way. I don't know if you've come across any studies along those lines Carl, but we are apparently speeding up the Balinese?
Carl Honoré 36:11
Yeah, no, that's not surprising to me at all. This conversation is reminding me of a wonderful phrase that are saying that, supposedly, during the colonial era, when the British went out to Africa, the Africans would say to the British, you have the clocks, we have the time. And Chris, you were talking about that it is cyclical, we in the West have flattened everything out, we've turned everything, we've made everything digital, we've made it all times arrow flying remorselessly from A to B, right? There's constant sense of time rushing away from us. Whereas in more traditional societies, they do think of time as being cyclical. So it's always flowing away from you. But then at the same time renewing itself, which right away, think of that image, and it's, it's soothing, right? It takes away that awful FOMO pressure pressure that we feel in the West just to be racing and squeezing more and more into less and less time to be productive, because time is money, right? And that's pretty much the western ethos. But I think in those traditional societies, a lot of that com comes from a different, just a different geometrical conception of time, right? That is sort of cyclical, and things are moving and renewing, and so on. So that, but then, to pick up your point, Martin, it's so true that the West has because of our hegemony, you know, we've sort of pushed our way onto the rest of the world and we've infected them with a virus of hers. I remember a few years ago, I lived in South America for a long time and all the things you're talking about Bali there. Many of them are familiar to me, especially in more rural areas, people being, you know, not rushed, and just doing things in their in their own time. Yeah. A few years ago, Ecuador, Ecuador, I think it was launched a national punctuality campaign, it became a bit of a laughing stock, I think. And I I haven't I personally haven't been back to Ecuador since then. But I've spoken to friends who say that it you know, Ecuador, Ecuador, have different conception of you know, they're not they're not as punctual as the British, let's say, obsessively.
Martin O'Toole 38:08
It wasn't an effective campaign. And by the sounds of it, that's a shame. Do they still celebrate it annually?
Carl Honoré 38:15
The the campaign? No, I think it was, I think it was just a six month or you know, I don't think it was a national national punctuality day or anything as drastic as it was just like I think someone probably someone in the the, you know, the Ministry of Finance decided that too many Ecuadorians, returning up to too many. It's too late, right and just got a noise, and managed to get a bit of money down the back of the sofa for national campaign. But yeah, it just, it's just a sort of metaphor for that conflict, right between the two different ways of thinking about time, the mechanistic, functional, flat view of time that's tied up with productivity and taylorism and factories, and clocking in and clocking out all that stuff, that Western stuff versus the deeper, slower, more circular view of time that's much more in harmony with nature. Yeah, I mean, nature is the perfect example Is it right? That's why we find nature and we are creatures of nature even though we've been living in cities for hundreds of years now. We still we go into I mean, all the science is very clear on this, we go into nature, green spaces have a real effect on us physically, we feel calmer, we're sort of relaxed with less stress and so on, we slow down. And that's because nature I mean, nature's you cannot speed up nature, right? You simply can't nature has. Nature has her own tempo. giusto right. And it served her pretty well. Yeah. And look at the mess we get into when we do try to speed up nature. We start paying a pretty high price for it and nature herself suffers too, and we suffer more and you know, whatever happens in the future, nature is not going anywhere. Right? It's we're the ones who are running the risk of extinction But Mother Nature, she will wait us out right because Mother Nature has time. We've got the clock
Martin O'Toole 39:59
Interesting point you may I, I was a, I was from the countryside in North Yorkshire and then I went to live in London for three and a half years before I moved to Bali. And as you would expect, I was I spent my whole career travelling in and out of London so I wasn't new to the city, nor was I new to cities. And I lived in Switzerland as well prior to that in a city but, but I used to talk to people regularly who got to the point where they saw a weekend trip to the Surrey Hills, for example, for anyone, anywhere, anywhere else in the world listening to this, this is just a really hilly piece of countryside and sort of outside of London, but they would see it as this impossible treat you know, it's like it was it was something that they never got. And and of course, I never got that when I lived in London I did actually I used to go to Surrey Hills, but but not as often as I would like and then since moving to Bali, and now you know my footwear is flip flops and has been for two years. And I'm surrounded by nature, I realise what I taken for granted, we can reconnect with nature. And of course with the Schumann residence resonance, don't we I don't even know anything about the Schumann resonance. But it's the it's the resonant use I think you said the the heartbeat of nature, there is a literal heartbeat, there's a resonance, there's a frequency, which derives from 432 hertz, I believe, but it's obviously a lot lower. And it's essentially the heartbeat of earth. And they can you can is measured, it's called the Schumann resonance. And we are intrinsically connected to that as we are intrinsically connected to everything on this planet, including one another. But when you spend enough time in the nature, you reset your own resonance, so as you say, I suppose I guess it's a different it's adding to the perspective you just shared. Where we do slow down, we literally slow down. And just by putting our hands and feet in on the earth without any rubber in the way we're actually allowing that resonance to, to beat through us.
Carl Honoré 42:07
nature allows us to reset our metronome to something far more healthy, yes, playful and natural. And nature is the perfect antidote to speed. In fact, that I think has been one of the great lessons of the pandemic, hasn't it if you think too, I mean, I lived through the pandemic in London. And one of the things that everybody noticed and cherished was that nature came back, you know, there was just less traffic, there weren't planes he suddenly could hear birdsong. Yeah, people were people were getting back out into the garden, they're planting things they were going out of once they could move, they were leaving this and people are now leaving the city to move out and carry on doing their jobs. We do them remotely from the countryside. And I think it was a moment of reset a moment to reboot our relationship with ourselves and the natural world. And for many people that's translating into some pretty seismic shifts in the way they live their lives, you know, where they live from the kind of work they do, how much time they spend in nature. And nature, I think, for everyone has moved up the wish list, right, as a result of the pandemic. Worse, the pandemic is a sign of nature, you know, where I've sync with nature, right? When there's a pandemic, it's another. So there are many different ways of unpacking it. But I think it all leads to the same conclusion, which is that we are just living way too fast, right? We are bumping up against the limits of what human beings can take and what the planet can take. And the time has come to, to slow things down. And that's why the delicious irony is that the slow movement is growing fast. You know, I'm noticing it just in my own work and the kind of new initiatives that people are coming up with off the back of the pandemic, whether it's redesigning cities and having way more space for pedestrians, and bicycles and so many rethinks that were going on before the pandemic, but now have been strengthened and accelerated so that we come out of the pandemic, with people embracing this idea of slowly been more vigorously than than before.
Martin O'Toole 43:57
Little did you realise you were ahead of your time in that regard. And I suspect obviously, the pandemics had some fairly hideous negative effects on on mankind, or humankind. But I suspect On the flip side, you're right, it certainly feels to me, we're rather divorced out here. Because we're already in a in a different pace of life. We already chose to be checked out. Some of us checked out in advance not even knowing what was gonna happen. But obviously we see what's happening in the world and we're connected to other people but but it seems to me that has the the whole pandemic issue has been a huge catalyst for people to really rethink what they're doing with their lives, how they're doing, what they're doing, at what pace they are doing it and also the environment in which the working living the people around them, I seem to be getting an awful lot of really positive noises like this from people, especially in cities in the UK in the US people is not going you know what, I had some I had a light a moment of clarity as a result of this nonsense. And actually, it's reframed how I'm going to do stuff, which is awesome, because it's what you've been talking about writing about, and it's what this show is all about. But you, obviously, you said it's speeding up, have you seen this sudden exponential growth in the slow movement and and more people wanting to talk to you about it?
Carl Honoré 45:28
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It was on the radar before, but it's now I think it's close to being front and centre. Now as people rethink so many things about their lives. And the statistics are, are all pointing that same direction that you know, if you look at the new Google searches, what people are looking for, it's sort of it's yoga, it's working fewer hours, it's spending more time with their family, all these things that are at the top of the shopping list for the slow movement have been pushed right to the top of everybody else's agenda. Because, I mean, yeah, total nightmare, the pandemic, right. But at the same time, at force, it created this whole global workshop and slow, right, it forced us to slow down, you couldn't have FOMO, because there was nothing to miss out on right. So people are forced, forced to spend time, you know, just doing nothing, right? Because there's nothing to adventure, you can only watch so many Netflix series. And so I think people found themselves doing something which they had needed to do before but hadn't done, which was they just stopped. They push pause, and they they had time to reflect, to do all that stuff I was talking about earlier, you know, look at the big picture, ponder big questions, such as, who am I? What's, you know, what's my purpose here? What kind of life? Do I want to live? What kind of world why don't want to live leave behind to my children? Or my grandchildren? You know, or that question that runs through your podcast, you know, how do I die happy, right? What is what? How do I grapple with these big questions, the pandemic gave people through a horrifying way, but it gave people in many people the space and the time to, to dive into those questions. And I think it's been hugely salutary for so many people, which is why you find so many people coming out of the pandemic, now saying, you know, what, I had some time to reflect, and I'm looking back in the life I lived before, I'm not going back to that, right, I'm going to change careers, or I'm going to carry the same career forward, but do it differently. I'm going to spend more time with people who matter to me, I'm going to listen more, I'm gonna spend more time in nature, I'm gonna leave the city and move to the country or having to leave the country, move to city, I'm going to start cycling. And so I'm going to grow my own food, I'm going to spend more, you know, all these things that are, can be tied up in a bow under the word slow. So many people have come to that conclusion through the pandemic. So, you know, we're still in it. It's not over. It's still an ordeal in so many ways. Right. But I think we will look back in a couple of years, when things are looking a little rosier. And think, Wow, we learned a lot of useful lessons. There were some serious breakthroughs that we made individually and collectively during this really trying time.
Martin O'Toole 48:00
Yeah, I think it's, I think, as you say, when pe— when we look back, people are gonna go, Wow, that was pivotal. And we have a slot on the show every week, where we invite guests to record a message for the show via our website. So they record a message for our guests. It's called Be my guest. So I have a question for you from an audience member car.
Julia (Sussex) 48:25
Hi, Carl.
Carl Honoré 48:26
Wow.
Julia (Sussex) 48:26
I feel like I'm stuck in a loop of commute, work, Eat Drink, sleep repeats? How can I introduce some slowness into my hectic life without needing it out of shape?
Carl Honoré 48:42
Jules from Sussex? Thank you, Jules. What you go? Well, there are two ways to think about this. I mean, without knowing the exact circumstances of Jules' life, I mean, she may be in a kind of career that is just not right for her. So that's a whole other piece, but I won't go there because I don't know enough to opine on that. But whatever the job is, and whether it's the right thing and so on for her at this time, I would always recommend just making starting with very small moments, small steps, little injections of slow here and there. So however busy your day is, you can always always carve out, I don't know, a minute or two to do something slow. So whether you whether it means getting up five minutes earlier in the morning, just to create a kind of slow vibe to start your day instead of you know, wolfing down an energy bar, you know, and rushing off with your code half on out the door. You just get up five minutes earlier and I know some people and I've been there myself thinking I can't get up five minutes early. I'm exhausted, isn't it right? You know, actually, that five minutes will turn out to be a pretty glorious investment because that five minutes will allow you to set the tone for the rest of your day you start, you can actually sit down have a coffee, you can make a cup of tea or whatever, you can have some cereal, you can make some tea, you know and it just gets you into kind of slower group so you don't come out of the you know get your bed and hit the ground running already in Roadrunner mode. So start there was say five minutes more in the morning and then just all the way through the day look at your look at that crazy treadmill that you're on at the moment and just try and carve out little pivot points little minute here you know in a minute could be doing a breathing exercises or it could be getting up from your desk at lunchtime and going for a little walk to a local park right or, or a comment or some some green space, just having little things. I think the danger is that people often think, well, I want to slow down I really need to slow down. But that what does that look like it means hours of meditation an hour, no, it can be just very small little moments of slowness that can then bleed out into the rest of your day. And infuse it with a kind of calm. So I would recommend that. Look at your schedule, pick out little moments and just in drop them in little slow rituals and whatever it is works for you. I like to sketch right like get a sketchbook go sketch something for five minutes, sometime, you know, just those things will all inoculate you against the virus of hurry. So that would be my bus coming, just circling back to the bigger picture advice. Maybe the jewels is just doing too much, right? And we can find ourselves caught up in this do more things, say yes to everything. You know, my book, my first book is called in praise of slow, he could easily have been called in praise of no yeah. So start using using that no words, right. So just have take, you know, next weekend, you'll sit down, look at all the things you're trying to cram into your schedule in the coming week, and pick one thing each day, that's the least important and drop it, you will find things you can drop because we're all chronically squeezing way too much into our schedules. And keep that that thing you've dropped on, I think of it as a not to do list. So you got a to do list. But keep a not to do list, put it on the not to do list, keep those in a drawer and come back to them, you know, six weeks from now and look at them. And you'll realise that the thing that you thought six weeks ago, you thought Oh, I can't say no to this, my life will come to an end, my social circle will unravel, I lose my job. Actually, six weeks later, you can't even remember that thing because it wasn't that important. So many of the things that we put into our schedules. So many of the things that we devote time to are not important. They just feel urgent in the moment because we're panicked, we're stressed we're just following the herd, that if you actually stop, take some time to you know, think things through you'll realise that very, very few things that we do in a week are actually that important. So try to streamline winnow down to get to the really crucial things for you and let everything else go and that will allow oxygen into your schedule and that will help things slow down and feel less stressed and you know, overwrought as well. So a lot of advice there and not specially good order but hopefully you could pull something out of that will be helpful.
Martin O'Toole 52:54
That was a wonderful introduction to some practical utilities for people and they listen to you talk and you reminded me of I think it's a Chinese proverb or perhaps perhaps it's a Tibetan proverb There's a monk talking to another an old monk talking to a young monk in the old monk says it is recommended that you I'm paraphrasing, it is recommended that you meditate at least 20 minutes a day. And young monk sort of pulls the face in the old monk says if you cannot meditate for if you are too busy or unable to meditate for 20 minutes a day then you should recommend it you should meditate for two hours a day I balls ed that up,b ut you get the idea essentially what he's trying to say is if you haven't got 20 minutes for your own mindfulness then we got problems and actually need to be spending two hours
Chris Siracuse 53:47
yeah priorities for sure. I mean I think that's what it comes down to is priorities I really enjoying what you're what you're saying here Carl because I've been struggling with this another thing that you'll find in Bali is that there is a lot to do and I find myself like you said saying yes to too many things. And I like what you said about your book had been it's called in praise of slow but it could be for people that emphasise it now in praise of no yeah I'm learning to embrace that
Carl Honoré 54:15
it's so it's so countercultural to say no, we're always encouraged to you know, put ourselves out there cast the net wide you know, the whole world is a smorgasbord of experiences and products and things we want to and the natural human instinct is to want to have it all but having it all is just a recipe for for hurting at all. But it is difficult because the culture is you know, no is just a negative word right? Nobody wants to be I mean remember the you know the the villain in that doctor in what said the James Bond movie, right? It's Dr No, right? It's not Dr. Yes, right? To know is associated with bad things, right? It's a pejorative word. And yet it's an immensely powerful and enriching word. It's a key It's a it's a key, right? It's a key that opens the door to doing fewer things, but doing those things really well and enjoying them more. Because less is more. Right, the old, you know, endless. You actually could you mentioned earlier ancient wisdoms. And I love that idea, that phrase because I always feel that the things that I'm saying, I'm not saying anything new, right? You can find everything in the slow philosophy you'll find in, you know, Greek philosophy. You'll find it in ancient teachings of the Mayans, and Incas, I mean, these are all ancient truths, right? that human beings are not human doings, right? That we need just to be, we need to do nothing. Sometimes we need to live at the right speed, we need to do what's important, not what's urgent. Yeah. And then you on top of that, you build your own language superstructure, you come up with your own verbiage, your own words to get that idea across. But these ideas are ancient, they're universal, they're here forever. And slow is just another way of coming to the party and saying, look, here's some old truths, they still hold true today. And if slow, is the language that works for you, pick up this baton and run with it, rumble it slowly, but obviously, you know, run with it. But you know, if you don't, like slow and it's a word that nerves you, and it makes you feel, you know, that whole slow thing we talked about at the outset, then, you know, get you can get into the same place that I'm, you know, where I am, and I'm helping steer people towards, through, you know, religions or through Buddhism, or, you know, lots of different ways in, I just find that slow. It just works for for me is a, you know, it's a pithy, fun, modern, universal word. Everybody in every language knows what slow means. And it just feels it's got a kind of modern twang to it, the whole kind of slow culture of doing things, the right tempo and stuff. But, you know, if you want to get to the same place using other language or other thinking traditions or other religions, that's that's, that's all good, too.
Martin O'Toole 56:53
You have you've made modern sorry, you've made ancient teachings. And as you say, lots of different philosophies and even religious philosophies, you boil that down into something really simple for people to get their head around. So and that's actually one of the reasons why we want to get you on this show. Because I think you've done a wonderful job, in your books and your TED talks in all of these, these practices in this messaging that you're trying to share with the world. You've just nailed it on the head for people to make it super, super simple for people just to get their head around looking after themselves better. Certainly, personally speaking. I, you know, I lost it. I was I was trying to do way too much. And I absolutely burnt out. And I'm sure what you said today is going to really resonate with a lot of our guests.
Chris Siracuse 57:41
Yeah, yeah.
Martin O'Toole 57:42
Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the on the How To Die Happy podcast Carl.
Carl Honoré 57:48
It's been fun.
Martin O'Toole 57:50
Super fun. I honestly Wish I could talk to you about this for another few hours. So yeah. So perhaps
Carl Honoré 57:56
you could even keep going if someone else has the clock. We all have the time. But then actually, you guys are producing. We've got the clock as well, right?
Martin O'Toole 58:06
Well, I just I suspect as long as you've enjoyed yourself, we'd love to get you back.
Chris Siracuse 58:11
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 58:12
So we need to have to the problem with the problem with having these wonderful conversations with people like you is you've got so much to say. And definitely not enough to fit into one podcast, I suspect. So. Yeah, we'll be we'll be on your heels to get you back. And meanwhile, thank you so much for taking the time. Pardon the terrible pun.
Chris Siracuse 58:36
I mean, yes, thank you for making us at least in a small way a priority in your day car. We very much appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. It's really a pleasure hearing you you talk and like Martin said distilling, and maybe reframing some of this ancient wisdom for people.
Carl Honoré 58:52
Let me just finish with a quote from Mae West. anything worth doing is worth doing slowly. On that note, bring in the jingle
