Episode 03 Transcript
Martin O'Toole 00:30
Hi, Chris.
Chris Siracuse 00:31
Hello, Martin.
Martin O'Toole 00:32
How you
Chris Siracuse 00:35
you know I'm doing well with as well as could be expected
Martin O'Toole 00:41
I thought you're gonna expand on
Chris Siracuse 00:44
well yes
Martin O'Toole 00:45
Why are you doing well? How are you doing? Well how Why? Why? Why are you doing well?
Chris Siracuse 00:49
I don't know I think I would attribute some of that feeling to doing the podcast. It's been enjoyable You make me laugh.
Martin O'Toole 00:56
This is these are two good things.
Chris Siracuse 00:58
Yeah. You're a ball-ache.
Martin O'Toole 01:00
Oh,
Chris Siracuse 01:00
From time to time
Martin O'Toole 01:01
Ouch!
Chris Siracuse 01:01
You're also a lovable, charming, hilarious, brilliant ball ache. So I, I tolerate you,
Martin O'Toole 01:08
you, sir, are very kind.
Chris Siracuse 01:11
Well, no, but in all honesty and sincerity. I think that I am feeling better because we've been doing this. We've had a few wonderful guests. We've had a couple really fun chin Wags, we've also touched on some deep stuff. So yeah, it's it's been fun. So do you want to?
Martin O'Toole 01:29
That's cool. Yeah, I'm pleased about that. Because I think I said somewhere. If this podcast only helps one person, then it's worth doing. Little did I realise that one person would be just you
Chris Siracuse 01:46
like, well, I guess we can pack it up.
Martin O'Toole 01:48
Hopefully we have a hopefully we have an audience. somewhere.
Chris Siracuse 01:53
Yeah, maybe you shouldn't put that out there. If I only helped one person.
Martin O'Toole 01:56
That's it.
Chris Siracuse 01:57
The universe, you've done it.
Martin O'Toole 01:59
Well done
Chris Siracuse 02:00
move on to
Martin O'Toole 02:01
write a book.
Chris Siracuse 02:02
Yeah. Okay. Well, for the sake of helping more than just me.
Martin O'Toole 02:08
Yes,
Chris Siracuse 02:08
I would hope that we can stick around. And thank you to everyone that's listening for, for listening right now. And for hopefully following sharing, subscribing, liking all the things,
Martin O'Toole 02:18
all of the things that helped the algo. And if you don't know we've, we've been deleted from Instagram for no apparent reason. So any help you can give us to promote our existence?
Chris Siracuse 02:28
Yes,
Martin O'Toole 02:29
would be much appreciated,
Chris Siracuse 02:31
very much appreciated. We say that we don't know. And we that is true that we don't know the the reason, but we suspect that it's because we were talking about death, at least in part. That's what that's what I suspect.
Martin O'Toole 02:43
Yeah. Because we weren't Well, we weren't warned. And you are supposed to be warned. It was just deleted. So yeah, quite possibly. I don't know.
Chris Siracuse 02:51
It's possible. Well,
Martin O'Toole 02:53
totally blows, man,
Chris Siracuse 02:54
it does. Totally blow. So what are we talking about this week? Well, Why don't you transition for us
Martin O'Toole 03:03
We're talking about the the serious territory of suicide, and death, and grief and loss. So a small warning for anyone listening this, we're going to dive into this into these subjects. And there is really no way you can dive into these subjects without discussing some some fairly hefty stuff, so please do bear with us. So I'll just
Chris Siracuse 03:34
Or not if you were if you're sensitive to hearing about suicide,
Martin O'Toole 03:38
true, but then I would counter if you are sensitive to it, please just try and actually just bear with us and listen to this because
Chris Siracuse 03:48
True, true true
Martin O'Toole 03:49
the whole episode, the whole episode is is loaded with with wonderful stories and practical utility.
Chris Siracuse 03:56
Yes. indeed
Martin O'Toole 03:57
we'll get onto that, let me just share this
Russell Brand 03:59
suicide, I suppose, along with homicide is mental illnesses, most severe conclusion, irreversible.
Martin O'Toole 04:13
Russell Brand talking about suicide with a lot of reverence there, but but I liked the way he he explained it as the most severe conclusion to mental illness. It is. And I did some googling and some research for an article I was writing for elephant journal last year, all about suicide. And here's a shocking statistic. So just in one month alone, over 92,000 people use this specific Google search term, "how to commit suicide".
Chris Siracuse 04:49
92,000 people
Martin O'Toole 04:51
92,000 people were proactively interested in how to commit suicide. Obviously, you You can't read it read into that any further than that. But ultimately, it's it's a fairly, it's a fairly telling phrase that people are searching for.
Chris Siracuse 05:11
I mean, it's certainly an indicator.
Martin O'Toole 05:13
Very much so. And on top of that, according to the World Health Organisation, around 800,000 people take their own lives every year, which is one suicide every 40 seconds. Not only that, but they reckon that for every suicide obviously reported there are several not reported, notwithstanding that there are also all of the attempts. So they suspect it's more like four times that people trying to trying to take their own lives
Chris Siracuse 05:46
four times that official number.
Martin O'Toole 05:48
Yeah, but but obviously failing. All this to say we've got a problem. We've got a huge, huge societal problem, mental illness on a on a rising scale exponentially. And I think the biggest worry from my perspective is now that suicide is the fourth leading cause of death in 15 to 19 years. So the kids are onto it. And I can't, I can't I mean, I, I had my fair share of depression. But I can't imagine what it's like to be a young teenager thinking that's the only way out. And so,
Chris Siracuse 06:31
yeah, another really, I think telling indicator, when you're saying those kind of numbers in that age group
Martin O'Toole 06:38
Very much so. So anyway, sorry for the sombre beginning, everyone. But the whole point of this show is that we tackle this stuff and we tackle it head on. The thread in the whole show is the common deathbed regrets. We're talking about death as much as we're talking about life. So. So with that in mind, we had a wonderful session with a, frankly, a supremely impressive woman, didn't we, Rebecca? Jax?
Chris Siracuse 07:08
Very, very impressive. Yeah. So do we want to give a little preview of Rebecca's story?
Martin O'Toole 07:13
Yeah. Do you want to talk about that?
Chris Siracuse 07:15
Yeah, I think I could talk about it. Yeah. So just to give people an introduction to Rebecca. So three years ago, or three and a half years ago, her younger brother committed suicide, and she found him. And I mean, just saying that and really letting that sink in. It certainly makes me me feel something very profound and very, very painful. I can only imagine how she felt. So she's managed to take that and turn it around and become a counsellor therapist. Would you describe what she does?
Martin O'Toole 07:53
Well, she would, I think she would call herself a grief and loss mentor,
Chris Siracuse 07:58
and grief and loss mentor. Okay.
Martin O'Toole 08:00
But yeah, as you say, she, there are, there are a couple of ways you could deal with that, right? notwithstanding the fact that her brother killed himself. That's bad enough, but to find him. And they were, they were the they were living together at the time, they were in Australia, so the rest of the family was in on the other side of the world. So she had an awful lot to cope with there. And I dare say, the lion's share of us could quite easily crumble and never rebuild after something like that.
Chris Siracuse 08:30
Yeah, absolutely.
Martin O'Toole 08:31
But that's why she's so incredibly impressive.
Chris Siracuse 08:34
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 08:34
Because what does she do?
Chris Siracuse 08:36
She's taking it as an opportunity to to help other people and help avoid that same kind of pain, or at least deal with that, that pain
Martin O'Toole 08:45
and take herself through the healing process. And I think that's that was probably the most impressive thing for me. You know, when we talk about this, probably off microphone more than on it, but you know, everyone's a fucking life coach, right?
Chris Siracuse 09:02
Everyone's a fucking life coach and Bali.
Martin O'Toole 09:05
Yeah, well, not just in Bali
Chris Siracuse 09:06
Yeah but it's a thing in here.
Martin O'Toole 09:07
We've got a lot of life coaches, and I and I'm trying to say that without judgement, and an equally with all due deference to the wonderful life coaches out there, but there are many people coaching people in things they are not qualified to do or not qualified to talk about, in my opinion. And one thing that is you could safely say is that if anyone had the the God given right to counsel anyone on suicide, grief and loss, it's this woman.
Chris Siracuse 09:15
Definitely.
Martin O'Toole 09:31
And she's, she's got such a wonderful perspective on the whole thing now, and she's she's got a real beautiful energy about her. So yeah, we talked What did we talk about?
Chris Siracuse 09:59
Well, we talked About her story.
Martin O'Toole 10:01
Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yup.
Chris Siracuse 10:01
and her experience, we talked about how she initially handled that. And that path that she took, we talked about her experience here in Bali. And that transition that happened for her and then we started to get more into what I would say the the metaphysical physics and spirituality. Something I appreciated very much about Rebecca in a theme that we're starting to see with our guests is her ability to, to acknowledge the fact that some of this stuff may seem a little bit far out when you're talking about energy and you're talking about some of these spiritual concepts. But informing it and and giving it some credibility with with science. Yeah, and I think that's really really important when you're trying to do what she's trying to do and what we're trying to do, which is bridge that gap between people that may not be so open to these things, and people that are very open to these things sometimes too open. So I really appreciated that about her.
Martin O'Toole 11:00
Yeah, she's a supremely impressive woman and and what she's done for herself and the gift she's given to herself is fantastic. And of course off the back of her brother jack committing suicide she's taken a completely new direction and that direction is in service of others so she's applying that whole healing process and methodologies to to helping other people so I suppose we could just dive straight in and
Chris Siracuse 11:33
I think so.
Martin O'Toole 11:34
So this is Chris and I talking to Becky Jax. Rebecca Hi.
Rebecca Jax 11:44
Hello. How are you?
Martin O'Toole 11:45
I'm very well how are you?
Rebecca Jax 11:47
I'm very well thank you.
Martin O'Toole 11:50
Such a formal beginning to our podcast. It's an absolute pleasure to have you. So what what do you get up to on a typical weekend in the cat— the Catalan capital of Barcelona?
Rebecca Jax 12:05
Well, I've had to switch up my hobbies from staffing and running on the beach to longboarding a skateboard riding my bicycle around the city and running. Typically, I'm okay with doing doing stuff.
Martin O'Toole 12:24
Because you moved there recently Didn't you from Bali?
Rebecca Jax 12:28
I did, yes, I left Bali and I went home for about six weeks and big mistake trying to integrate back into the UK after 15 years. And then I came over to Barcelona for six months before heading back to Bali.
Martin O'Toole 12:43
So an international woman of mystery.
Rebecca Jax 12:47
Yeah, let's be make good actually. Like I haven't lived in in Europe ever. So I've always kind of felt like I missed out on that whole city lifestyle.
Martin O'Toole 12:56
I've never been to Barcelona actually. I lived in a place called Lugano, which is a Swiss cities around a lake sort of Swiss Italian border. You've been to Barcelona?
Chris Siracuse 13:07
I haven't never been to Spain I've been to the Basque Country and France near Biarritz, but never to Spain so what do you what are you missing most about Bali? Rebecca?
Rebecca Jax 13:18
I'm missing my puppy I'm missing staffing and I'm missing the happy people every day that's why it has this way doesn't it like I get like piles like I'm like almost as if I can imagine what going cold turkey would be like like I'm really missing Bali.
Martin O'Toole 13:35
Like smile cold turkey.
Rebecca Jax 13:38
Just the cul— Yeah, the culture of people to even start even the traffic like I'm starting to miss the things that you you don't really particularly like after living there for a while. Even though even the smells and missed everything about it.
Martin O'Toole 13:54
I can relate. I was here for 18 months I moved from London to Bali and I lived the hermit's life for a good 18 months because I had to do a lot of work inner work and and then I went to Turkey for a while wow that was such a huge cultural shift and of course I went from being in on the east coast of you know nowhere in Bali to Istanbul which was mad and of course it was full on sort of just post lockdown everyone wearing masks in a lot of very weird energy around the place so yeah, it's nice to come back. I have to say it's a it's a special place like that is Bali.
Rebecca Jax 14:40
Yeah, and you can't really explain Unless Unless you you just feeling isn't it it's not for you can't really put it into language what it what it feels like but I think that the time in between. Bali has been good for me as well from going out that inner work phase to going into doing and then it Integrating both of those back into moving back. So I've had some new insights living away, that's for sure.
Martin O'Toole 15:06
It's interesting, you should, you should say that cuz we were talking about that the other day, the idea that you can be monk-like, if you like, take yourself off to the middle of nowhere to do the inner work. And that's great. But actually, It's only until you then reintegrate or reintroduce more people, more madness, for want of a better word, challenges mindfulness challenges before you can really start to integrate it and see if it's working. Same thing, what do you think? Does it feel? Does that resonate?
Rebecca Jax 15:36
Yeah, like when I got home, I really had to use my tools so much more in Barcelona. Not so much the energy here is different. But when I was back in the UK, I was really being asked to put everything into practice so much more I everything that I've done is embodied like it's, it's who I am, what I do anymore. But in England, that shook me up, I was like, wow, I have to be, like, exclude myself so much more, and then do that deep inner work, trying to get your vibration so much higher. And trying to do it rather than it just being like, that was strange.
Martin O'Toole 16:12
That's interesting. Well, it's just a different way of life and a different way of living in England, I think, Well, sorry, what were you gonna say?
Rebecca Jax 16:21
I was worried. I was like, Oh, my God, like, I'm worried I'm going to do that, like all of this work. I've done everything that I've been practising. What if it all just goes away? You know, and I just kind of nipped it in the bud and left as soon as I could.
Martin O'Toole 16:38
I've had exactly the same concerns. But I think that's part of the journey, isn't it? I think that's part of this. One of the things I'm realising is and I think knowing not just intellectually knowing but now feeling that, that we are, we're all teachers and we're all learners. And this this, this journey of awareness, or unlearning, or healing, or awakening, whatever you whatever people want to call it is, it's ongoing, and it's never-ending. And I think one of the things I had this idea that I was gonna be this, you know, Zen monk, like, unfettered by any disturbance whatsoever, but the reality is, when you when you get back in, amongst it knee deep amongst other people who are not in that space, is it's challenging this, but then, really, that's the I think that's the point, isn't it, that we can learn to do this for ourselves and for others, but then put ourselves back in, I'm gonna say, the real world, but define the real world and still be able to maintain mindfulness practice.
Rebecca Jax 17:46
Yeah, that's, that's when I really started to understand like paradise listening sight, you know, living on an island, having in Paradise, having the energy of Bali hold you is great, but then actually practising all of those things somewhere, that you're not necessarily externally happy, then do you really have to find that happiness or that paradise within. And I'm glad that I learned that when I got back as well, you know, because it did make me realise them. That we are very lucky in Bali being held in that environment.
Martin O'Toole 18:19
Yeah, absolutely. No doubt about that. Well, we've had some fantastic guests on the podcast so far. And this is Episode Three, right. But I have to say, well, with these guests we've we've been talking to so far, we've been talking about the art of living very much about the art of living. So I've been really looking forward to this discussion with you because it it it gets to the heart of what How To Die Happy is about and that is the relationship between the art of living and the art of dying well. So, super grateful that you've made time to to have a chat with us. I suppose there's no easy way to to start a conversation with you along the lines of what we want to talk about. But so I'm just going to dive right in and perhaps invite you to tell us a little bit more. So a couple of years ago, your brother jack ended his life. Could you start to tell us a story of the circumstances surrounding that event?
Rebecca Jax 19:23
Yeah, for sure. So three and a half years ago, my brother jack he had been suffering with chronic back pain that he needed surgery on and he did have two surgeries, but during that time of his pain, getting worse and worse. He was on a whole cocktail of psychiatric medications, opiate based medications. And a lot of these medications then had other side effects and symptoms. He struggled a lot then with his environment of obviously being able to work girlfriend, friends, money, finances. The whole pyramid kind of all came crashing down because he was in so much pain, he couldn't work and sustain his normal lifestyle mounting pressures from being really behind in university because he couldn't concentrate because of the medications and also then become a very addicted on the medications, too to no longer suffering with back pain anymore after two successful operations, and then deciding to come up with his medications and going into psychosis, because they're so dangerous, they just come off a lot of his he would say that his brain was on fire. And it was really painful to see him become a slave to those medications, because he, you know, depended on them, so that he could function in everyday life. And ultimately, you know, like, he got extremely tired, and how was helplessness and powerlessness? And, you know, he would speak very openly about his mental health, and how he was hoping he would always do his best with exercise, food, nutrition, like, outdoors, everything, hobbies. And so yeah, it came at the most unexpected time for a while we were worried, obviously, when he would go into psychosis, of course. But then, at the time, when he was, he was no longer in pain anymore from the operations and so on and so forth. He was on the way up. And I think that I've had to obviously go over this a million times in my head. But I think that feeling of going back on the way up was such fast expectations from actually being someone who's been in so much pain and so addicted for such a long time to then all of a sudden, just be like, okay, you're fine. Now you can go back to work and having having all those things that you've been dependent on from society taken away from you. And it's just what how your mind has tried to heal around that time. It wasn't enough time it wasn't integration. And yes, sadly, I hate took his life. And I found him three and a half years ago.
Martin O'Toole 22:14
So if it wasn't bad enough, you you found him as well.
Rebecca Jax 22:19
Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 22:19
I understand that you also felt responsible. At the time or for some time after How did such an unspeakably hefty weight affect you and your own mindfulness?
Rebecca Jax 22:33
Um, my brother and I moved to Australia, and my, my family, obviously, were in the UK. So it was just Jeff and I in Australia. And when things were tough, like I was like, Jack's mom, dad, sister, best friend, you know, I was his only only family member there. And so there were times that we didn't have support from mom. And I would be like a communicator, you know, I would always speak for jack and kind of just be the mother, I suppose. And so yeah, at times, it would get quite tiring for me. Because it was really hard work at times. And I think that when he took his life I didn't have anyone out. No one else was the only one to kind of feel to blame for that. I blamed myself for a really really long time.
Martin O'Toole 23:30
Man, I can't even imagine I suppose. You can't plan for we can't plan for someone taking their own life. And I I know from firsthand experience, having known someone who took their own life and obviously lost people in my life, but we often feel that death their deaths happened to us Don't we.
Rebecca Jax 23:55
Yeah
Martin O'Toole 23:56
If that makes sense.
Rebecca Jax 23:58
Yeah, I think it was suicide as well it dos. It does really feel like there was no choice like you didn't get you didn't get an opportunity to say anything, ask any questions, say goodbye, you didn't have an opportunity to be to make it right. So you'll never you'll never know like you're in the dark for such a long time. You have to do so much work on yourself. And spiritually speaking, there's a lot of answers there because you start receiving answers. And you know that just by language, but a lot of people don't realise that and so to even get onto that path is like this is like a lifesaver. It's a miracle, really. But yeah, it does feel like it happens to you if it was like the biggest, like two fingers that like in your face like and I know it's not that but it can feel like that was suicide for sure.
Martin O'Toole 24:47
Yeah. Yeah, I would imagine it is certainly feels like suicide compared to any other kind of death. I I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross's work Around grief, no doubt, and she of course developed the five stages of grief. I wonder if it's the same what's what else? denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance?
Rebecca Jax 25:17
Yeah, actually, she's retracted that since then.
Martin O'Toole 25:22
Ah... Do tell,
Rebecca Jax 25:23
because it wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't the model that she meant to go by apparently, for people that have passed over, I think, if I'm correct, it was about people that were passing over. So yeah, like anticipatory grief. So when someone was poorly, but then it was this model. And it still is the model that so many grief counsellors go off with today. And that was the first model that I was introduced to. And I learned very fast like that, how ridiculous that was. And also, because so many people with suicide loss don't actually seek out help because of the shame and the stigma attached to it. And so what I also noticed in the early days was that I was almost like a guinea pig or a test subject for so many therapists that they were learning of me. And it was really strange dynamic going to a therapist, and then you kind of helping them
Martin O'Toole 26:21
and providing some sort of data for them. So So, so can you describe your grieving process, as opposed to this textbook version that's been misinterpreted?
Rebecca Jax 26:34
Yeah, I mean, at first, it's so unbelievable and so shocking that you're looking for them. And the only way that you can possibly get to them is by you not being here. And so death for me was the only options for a while when jack first passed away. It dumbfounded me that my dad wouldn't agree with me that we should go and we should take our lives and go and be with my brother. And yeah, I was just perplexed like how are we still alive? This is crazy. And so much anguish like physical pain, like real deep physical pain in your bones and trying to live was extremely difficult. Spiritually speaking, I knew that instinctively that jack was in nature I was looking for him in nature, you know, I could feel him around and things started to escalate in that sense so that gave me a lot of hope actually, not really sure of course what would have happened with me in those early days if I didn't feel him and see him and experienced that because the guilt was so intense that I wanted to leave and it didn't scare me to leave it was it was just the most obvious thing to do and it's not that I wanted to die It just felt like a conscious responsibility like someone you know has been in so much pain and made such a sad decision and they're on their own and so I'm feeling like they're still in pain. Of course you want to go to them and if that's the only way you can go to them then it's kind of feels like a sacrifice like yeah sacrificial love
Martin O'Toole 28:13
a worthwhile one. So you by the sounds of it, you'd already done you you'd already done more work and learning to to have a broader perspective on death. And the afterlife did what what did jack believe where was where was his head on in terms of otherworldly concepts?
Rebecca Jax 28:44
Um not as far as as me I mean, like he would often speak of our Nan who passed away and he would always say he dreamt of her I guess like as a family we're very open minded and my dad always believed that there was more my dad's done a lot of spiritual healing work and energy work. But not hugely like a philosophical or spiritual family so I think jack would have had a huge wake up call when he passed over that's actually that's all my dad's and I could hear was jack saying what's the F word? Am I allowed to say that
Martin O'Toole 29:21
Yeah, you can say what you like!
Rebecca Jax 29:25
all my dad and I could hear like on repetition like what the fuck What the fuck What the fuck have I done?! and i can you imagine you can't find them there's no like, you can't sustain that feeling. You can't take the person that's buried which is haunting. It's like constantly playing around in your mind and there's nothing you can do to help
Martin O'Toole 29:47
it must have been terrible for you. So how so on because by the sounds of it, you're you're two conflicting emotions here then on the one hand you wanted to you needed to to get yourself Through the grieving process as shocking as that must have been, but then at the same time you had this inherent need to to help him still, which is course admirable. How did you get to the point where you you realised you needed to do do something for yourself for your own sanity in this process?
Rebecca Jax 30:25
I went and got a spiritual counsellor after a while, and I was begging her, please, can you help me please? Can you help me? And she said, No, I can't help you. What do you mean, you can't help me, I can't keep going to these grief therapists anymore. And so we spent six weeks together like three times a week reading energy, feeling my brother's energy, learning how to communicate with him crystal healing, lots of things like this. And then that was kind of like this boot camp of Hogwarts, basically. So I really learned a lot in that time with her. And so what I started to realise that the only way I was able to communicate with my brother was when I transcended the pain and move through trauma, because my energy had to be so high. So it was kind of like, there's no game with no pain. And so I put myself through the wringer of trauma work quite early, because of the basis that I would be able to get that relationship out with my brother. And so my two options were I might get out of here, or I will learn how to communicate with him. And so that's, that's all I did, I studied, and I practice, and I learn every day to communicate in his language, the invisible language of spirit and the universe. And then I gave up nearly a few times, but eventually, I started to get more and more and more, and then it was nice, you know, I could live in this world and his world and get the best of both.
Martin O'Toole 31:50
Wowsers. Okay, so for just unpacking that for for our audience members who I don't want to say closed off probably who
Chris Siracuse 32:01
Maybe on the fence.
Martin O'Toole 32:02
Yeah,
Chris Siracuse 32:03
Or a little sceptical of alternative ways of healing are alternative forms of spirituality.
Martin O'Toole 32:10
Yeah. And, and I suppose the very concept of of metaphysics, things, we things we can't see or hear. How do you? How do you explain that to, to people on the fence or people who are actually cynical about it, because this is a very real story?
Rebecca Jax 32:33
Yeah, I mean, for most people, and at some stage, you know, they're looking for signs and receiving signs and things like that. And it's really important to me, you can extend that you can really go further than the feather that's been placed on your bed, or you're in your car seat or the doorstep, like they are reaching out or communicating. And I think that the Trust has to be that obviously, like anything, once you trust, once you believe more of it comes you open yourself up. But very she's speaking left that or energetically speaking, their frequency is so high, and they don't have their physical bodies anymore in this realm. And so with us, especially having our bodies having this matter that we're carrying around, and also having this trauma, which is also 10 times heavier, a tonne of bricks, it's really hard for our frequency to match. So the the metaphysics side of it is that we are multi dimensional beings. And so we have our body, our mind and our spirit. But so many of us believe that we're just our bodies. And even our bodies, as you know, aren't physical. So it really is learning how to work with energy. And having that one thing you know, some people do get quite scared, what that means if they're opening themselves up to I mean, I hear all sorts of things, but they're worried they're going to open themselves up to aliens, and all this sort of stuff. But that love that you feel and that joy and that bliss through your body. When you first connect, you get hooked, like you're hooked on, and you really just want to communicate with them more and more. And it just it, it just buys you this, this, this life ahead of you can be so treacherous. And as soon as you kind of go down that path, you can make peace with just living here and now and enjoying what you have. Because you know, your eyes have seen that you know that you're with them and you're— you are going to see them again.
Martin O'Toole 34:19
Yeah, that makes sense. So when you when you first put yourself on on this, this healing journey, how did you how did you break it out? And what did you did you try a number of practices, presumably you saw therapists but traditional therapists but did you also sort of go through a smorgasbord of alternative healing options or did you already have a good idea of who you want to talk to and what you wanted to do?
Rebecca Jax 34:48
No, no, so it was kind of like it was all serendipitous and at the synchronicities just were on fire. I mean, I what they always say don't they wants to teach when the student is Ready the teacher appears and so yes, it started off in a little cabin in the woods in Oxford in England with my teacher. And then that took me to NLP Reishi crystal healing. And then I spent time with shamans and with plant medicines and actually that was probably the catalyst of growth after that, because that that just had my eyes wide open to what I already knew, but it catapulted me ahead. And then from there, I started working really closely, I moved to body and then I started working really closely with lots of hypnotherapist and healers. Yeah, shamans, dance movement, everything, Trump and lots of my own meditation practice and trance mediumship as well, and lots of things started to kind of evolve quite quickly. Yeah, once I kind of got on that path, but lots of alternative healers, and I haven't even scratched the surface. I mean, there's so many more I wanted to, Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 36:02
me too. I, I, my I lost my I lost my mom in 2014. And that was the that was the catalyst from for me to begin my journey. Although my journey was longer in as much as I kind of started with traditional therapy, which was awesome. But I lived in the UK, and I was still an alcoholic and drug addict at the time. So I had a lot of a lot more sel-suffering to take myself through before I woke up. But I, I did a lot of work when I got here. One of it. So one of the I'm thinking one of the consistent themes, though, in all of this healing is is energy. And we've talked about energy in a couple of shows, haven't we now. Or to not talk about? Well? Well, it is. And of course from from my perspective, it that's what we should be talking about. But again, I'm really keen to for the for the audience out there who aren't really fully on board with what we're talking about here. I do want to just talk about the energy, the prana, the CI, the life force, or as the judaize would call it, the forecast, you want to talk about that a little bit from your perspective in the, in the context of healing.
Rebecca Jax 37:21
Yeah, of course, like, we all have that, that, at first, first points very being that absolutely everything is energy with our thoughts, our beliefs, and then creating those vibrational shifts and so I'm thinking of everything as energy and then the universal laws or the principles and then how you can really transcend that suffering gracefully when you start to walk that path of suffering, that spirituality kind of comes hand in hand whether you've asked you know, that's your intention or not really because the world's kind of desperate to uncover lots of truth and everything like that, but using energy so the most powerful energy healing I've done or I do by myself is like holotropic breathwork or rebirthing breathwork or conscious connect with breathwork just purely using your own oxygen and the the, the healing that that creates is just insane. And when you start to really transcend a lot of this energy and it goes higher and your energy field becomes much more expansive, you become very magnetic and you also become very wise as well like from your own experiences and knowledge and then obviously the wisdom then inherently spirits that through your heart all the way up to your crown and third eye that third eye and crown chakra. So then your connectedness to the universe to really having those universal laws and principles makes you that kind of like magnetic co creator so it's it's kind of strange like delving in and out of that like five D reality and the back in your 3d self forgetting that actually the reason why you're here right now is because it's everything that you've created. And so working with energy as well as like so much of this painful energy is living within the body, it's not so much living within the mind mental influence with heartache who would have run you through all of this in your other podcast as well. So actually moving through that energy within the body is where the magic happens and this is where that pain is living. So you know we can we can I'm studying with Peter Levine at the moment and he's like an amazing trauma specialists and yesterday we had a lecture and it was like, you know, you can talk but you're not going to fundamentally make much many changes to that energy within the body just by speaking alone. So we really do need to look to that. That energy within the body and and transcending and expanding it.
Martin O'Toole 39:49
This a wonderful quote by a chap called Jamie Anderson and he said, grief is just love with nowhere to go. I wrote wrote an article on the elephant journal website added a year ago, year and a half ago. And I used as a title because I'd realised through my own process, that it was energy, that my grief was was energy and I had to, I had to open my heart and let that energy flow through and out of me. And ultimately, when I finally managed to do that, and I understood that I could send love to my mom, my dad, mom didn't really matter whether or not there was a teak beam in front of me, or a wall, or a house or a mountain, or a planet or a universe or a dimension. I had, I had this inherent understanding that she would feel it. And I did holotropic breathwork. I was doing it very, very regularly when I first got to Bali, and I had a, a profound experience where my mum appeared to me. And we had a conversation about the fact that I'd started to write and I was writing about my experiences to try and help other people with mental health issues. And, but I had to stop and I said, but I'm really, I've just realised I'm writing about you. And I'm writing about your alcoholism. And you know, the life that we had the dysfunctional family life that we had. And my mom just said, don't worry about that at all, just tell the truth that must be told. And it was at that point, I just, I exploded into into a sobbing mess. As people often doing holotropic breathwork sessions. But, but she smiled, and you know, she just like faded away. And from that moment, on onwards, I had this completely different feeling inside and out about, about her death. And whatever doubts I might have had about metaphysics were, or put it another way, what I thought I knew intellectually was then suddenly reinforced on a on a whole other level of understanding. So yeah, the idea that grief is just love with nowhere to go, puts us in this interesting place where where is this stuck? And I suppose that's perhaps one of the questions that you you tackle with your clients.
Rebecca Jax 42:30
Yeah, I mean, like, with the grief, you think of like the avenues that that can go down as well when grief hasn't been expressed from love. And when it when when grief stays and stagnates and lots and traps within holding patterns in the body. And that and that grief can bring you down that tends that, you know, let's for example, that can turn into alcoholism and coping mechanisms and avoidance strategies. Relationship breaks down. So once you kind of go down that slippery slope, it's really easy to just keep diving fatter and fatter down when you start to actually yeah, express that through last through understanding and wisdom. That's when, you know, my whole life completely changed through career study country that I live in, fight what I do now for work. That was never an intentional thing that was down on an unconscious level, yes, it would have been what I would have liked to have done. But I didn't believe I was never going to be able to do that. But as soon as I started to move through that grief, and love, then there's so many people that I even worked with, that ended up also changing their careers, and they find their mission statement, they find their purpose, although our purpose is just to be here, but in terms of like how we serve others and things like that, like, so much purpose, and everything starts to uncover. And yeah, I would say there's like 50% of my clients alone, pick up, pick up a course they start studying and then they, they, they start communicating from that higher vantage point, being able to help other people, which is just what it's all about. But if you told someone that in the very early days when you know, it's just brief, they're never gonna believe you. But when you start healing, then they say, Hey, I understand that.
Martin O'Toole 44:13
Yeah, but it's a process just as just just as everything else. Well as you as you know, we have a slot or a segment on the show. From brought to us by a manku priest, the chap called ketut. So we are we always ask a question relevant to the theme of the show. So what did we ask Ketut?
Chris Siracuse 44:37
So we asked him what would you say to someone who's just just lost someone they love and the theme we gave him was tragedy loss and moving forward. Okay, let's hear from ketut.
Mangku Ketut 44:53
poach from Qatar. You have to be true. You have To be honest, don't follow what the people said. But you need to be true. Like it this thing, salty live, if you say salty is sweet, you, you do wrong, I mean, you need to be true to yourself. So first of all is a be with that feeling without judgement. And now let it flow, let it happen in you. And now if you can, don't react it to it, just keep a room and space to that feeling to happening in you. Because also is a time to go in and they will go. But again, the grid medicine is the time you cannot push that away so quickly, because you're going hiding in you, you're going to come back again one day, when you know, this, like that didn't make you surprising you. But if you feel it and give a space and a lead come and let it go. It's a pain. Yes, Ben cos come on. How to make salty, sweet, salty, salty, bitter, it's bitter, spicy, spicy, it's alive. It's a flavour of life.
Rebecca Jax 46:18
I love that.
Martin O'Toole 46:19
And then with the, the the unique style of a Balinese Mangku priest. So something he said, Well, lots of things that he said that were interesting there, but so he was talking about, you know, bitter, being bitter, salty, being salty, sweet, being sweet, that's life, you can't get away from it. And it made me think of something you said a little while ago that when you were ready, you had to really sit with it, you know, put yourself in the middle of the process. And I suppose my own understanding of, of getting over already, or are beginning any awareness process when it comes to acceptance is, is sitting in the searing pain of whatever that thing is, did that resonate for you?
Rebecca Jax 47:09
Yea h, because we can naturally like unless we've been raised in a soul supportive environment, a lot of us are quite wounded kids walking around in adult bodies. And I believe like now a lot of the chain breakers around our kind of age, you know, as we as, as our consciousness goes, but we advise this very, but we kind of a lot of us can have this tendency before we've done this work to deny look away from repressed, suppress, and to anything to avoid feeling that pain. But all of that is just sitting in the shadow side of self. So for as long as that's sitting there, and it's influencing us, it's not within our wholeness. And so yeah, better is better. And salt is salt, and sweet, sweet, but they're all a part of the same hole. So until we get uncomfortable with sitting there feeling that bitterness and understanding and communicating with it, it's just going to grow over time, and then some will call it fate. And it's not fate, it's just because it's the, you know, shining the light on the unconscious. So making everything that's sitting in that darker part of your hole. And that's where there's liberation as well. Because not only do you learn about yourself and your inner landscape, and you're turning yourself upside down, inside out, but you become that person that is everything, you know, we are we can be everything we can be evil, good, hateful, loving, in under the right conditions, we can we can be all of that. And so if you're going to deny that once pain has cracked you open, then that pain is just going to sit there and keep rearing its head influencing us. And then we might start calling it a chronic personality disorder as we go down the line and we completely lost ourselves. But actually, it's an invitation to really find yourself right?
Martin O'Toole 49:03
Yeah, I absolutely couldn't agree more. I was just wondering when you were speaking then how often do you find yourself treating someone who's grieving who thinks or says to you, hi, Becky, I need healing. Can you hear me please? Can you hear me? Can you hear my grief, but then you find yourselves on this journey where you essentially crack open a can of worms and actually help them on a on a far deeper, deeper level.
Rebecca Jax 49:37
So the capacity in which I work with people is through a five week journey to start. So the way that I've created what I do goes beyond the proof itself. So the way that I kind of describe it as like, the grief that happened is the thing that's cracked open everything else. A lot of people that I work with are asking questions about their childhood and their shadows. sight that ancestral trauma there's so much that goes into it and I've walked that path so it's my experience so everything that we do together is for the sake that that box of worms is going to open that Pandora's box is going to spill out. And so if we just touched on the grief, what are they going to do about all that little child inside and that's hurting and all of the trauma that they're integrational trauma that they've picked up on and also you know, assisting them through that process of where they're going forward now because they are changing so much spiritually speaking as well like it's a huge knock on effect when you lose your belief system you know, some people that I work with are really religious and scientific and there's so many things that start to open to them it can feel like a bit of an identity crisis so we go way deeper than grief
Martin O'Toole 50:50
Well, yeah, I suppose it occurred to me that whilst you'll have people who have specific religious beliefs you'll have people who have certain scientific narratives that they stick to but at the same time I'm assuming you have people come along to see you have no spiritual concepts or understanding at all perhaps they don't even believe in the afterlife or or do you tend to find it's the other way around?
Rebecca Jax 51:21
I have worked with people that that aren't sure that on the fence I mean there's not people that I don't think I've ever worked with anyone yet that has said I absolutely do not believe it most people that would navigate towards me anyway are looking for something more they already have their souls calling out for something or they already know that yes, so there's definitely people that just like me, I need to be ready break it down like what what exactly is his energy mean and separating science and spirituality together is one of my favourite things to do as well because you when they're in so much pain, and then they're going through all of the course material, and our sessions where it's they they truly are learning that they are just energy and so on and so forth. And spiritual tax and everything. Yeah, they lucked out, they attend to a new lease of life.
Martin O'Toole 52:16
They're like give me the science, give me the science. But there is so much more science around this now around this whole field of metaphysics and we find ourselves discussing this every week when we're talking about the Institute of noetic Sciences of noetic science which we were talking to caretaker about the other day actually. Which the interview will be down the line by the way for those of you who are wondering, wondering who Kartika is so do you do you get the impression then that we that we have this rising collective consciousness where it seems to be easier to to draw comparisons and adopt a dot between shall we say spirituality and science Do you feel like that Do you feel like something's cracking open here like a veil is being lifted?
Rebecca Jax 53:12
I think naturally enough for everyone in the world right now. even outside of grief even though most people are experiencing some level of grief right now I feel like this purge that we're all going through and purging out this darkness and you know that collective energy that's going on 100% that people are starting to see through the cracks and manipulation and lies and for something more and for anyone who's going through that wake up you know it can be quite uncomfortable because you start questioning everything about your past but there's so we're so lucky how much is out there now with modern day science and ancient spirituality that we really we could be reading books till the till the day we passed over we will Yeah, and I think as well like people are being called into Yeah, like seeking refuge within a lot more a lot more meditation and things like that. So yeah, I think that the most I've been very surprised by a lot of people I think this was for trending which is you know, have things kind of jump on that bandwagon and that trend but I think a lot of people now the first thing they ask you is like, what's your moon rising?
Martin O'Toole 54:25
Okay, so as you know, we also have a weekly segment called Be my guest, which is where we invite our audience members to ask you a couple of questions, essentially. So your guests albeit for a short time. Okey dokey. Question number one from a chap called Richie
Caller #1 55:01
hi Rebecca, how can you heal the trauma of a pair of passing and leaving children behind?
Rebecca Jax 55:07
Um how can you heal the trauma of losing a parent leaving young children behind? Um, I guess in terms of that, again, it's coming back to really understanding where the trauma live. So you can do a really short exercise here, when you think about that passing when you think about your loss. And when you think about the pain that you're experiencing, and then even perhaps, for the kids as well, what they must be going through is where does that live inside your body, like what parts of your body response. And so I mean, typically, in the beginning, that might be everywhere, it might be kind of located anywhere within your body, that is the signal of where that trauma is living within your body. Now, when there's younger children in the family, obviously, they're mirroring and they're learning from the people that have guided them. guardians and parents and things like that. So when you begin to actually heal and transcend that pain, and that grief from the body, it's like a missing link between talk therapy and healing through trauma. And knowing that the children are also learning and mirroring through that as well. And also when kids are so young, because this energy work just kind of uncovered more like spiritual values, principles, and a lot of them modalities kind of do introduce you to that, that the kids naturally are going to be exposed a lot younger than many of us were in our life. So they're really going to be able to learn and evolve and grow quite young. But typically speaking, yes, the trauma is there living within the body. So I would suggest finding someone who likes them cymatics. And you can there's lots of different healing modalities for somatic healing, and then perhaps incorporating that into your talk therapy if you are going down that path. And thank you for your question. And tI'm terribly sorry for your loss.
Martin O'Toole 57:03
Great advice. There we have another question, which is along the same lines, but with a with a different flavour to it. So I still wanted to include it because I thought this was quite an interesting question to throw your way. It's quite a lengthy question. So just bear with us.
Caller #2 57:23
Hello, this is Brian Edmunds from Aberdeen, Scotland, just moved to Bali six months ago from Norway, where I lived and worked for four years, and now working for the same company online from Bali. So it's quite unique and feeling very blessed. But um, yeah, it's an honour to be included in this podcast. Thank you, Martin. And the question I have is, from my own family experience is my one of my younger brothers. The second oldest, I'm the oldest of six, passed away with cancer back in Aberdeen 12 years ago. And so it was lung cancer. And when he discovered the tumour, it was like the size of a fist, and the cancer was in his lymph nodes. And we were told by the doctors that he had less than a year to live. And so it was very, very hard news. And especially for our parents, knowing that one of the rules is going to pass away. Before they do. It was really, really challenging, especially for my mom. And she's still heartbroken. We all are, but especially my mother. She's still heartbroken from from that time. And so my question to you cancer is how you deal with something like that, knowing that someone very dear to your brother, or your own child is going to pass away within a given time period, is really, really, really tough to handle. So yeah, how do you how do you deal with that? That's my question. Thanks.
Martin O'Toole 58:57
Thank you, Brian. Thanks for sharing. So Brian's coming at this from a different perspective. And this is the as much as it's tragic still, at least having the ability to work together as a family or as friends in preparation for someone's death.
Rebecca Jax 59:18
Yeah, that's a really good question. And I personally experienced this in discussions with my dad. In terms of again Yeah, cats that kind of loops into this podcast like How To Die Happy. But in terms of this, again, is also quite left field but asking for those signs for numbers for Yeah, numerology or asking for certain songs and things like that. So you can open up those lines of communication for the next phase. And so when they transition over onto the other side, that You're not having to wonder and learn and look for those signs. And I'm having to learn that invisible language, but you kind of already set the stage and having that, and then how you can flow into communicating with them once they've passed over. And I think perhaps dealing with somebody in that space is an opportunity for everyone to learn about. about what's what's happening next, like, what's that door that they're going to walk through is there, you know, they, my brother had to face a lot of lessons on the other side for quite some time, he was kind of in that Limbo phase for about a year. And it wasn't until I understood that when I start communicating with him on all these things that he had to work through that and I often wonder, perhaps, like, how beautiful that would have been to have had that, that opportunity before, to really discuss, like, you know, what, what do you regret? Like, what are you proud of? Like, what all about karma ties and contracts and things like that? So I think again, my my answer is probably perhaps a little different. to anything that might be standard in terms of just showing lots of love and healing. Yeah, that next that next phase, like my dad, and I have a lot of this all planned out ourselves.
Martin O'Toole 1:01:28
Yeah. Well, I suppose I would add to thanks, thanks for sharing that, by the way, because I think everything you said was probably, for many people, new things to consider. I would add, part and parcel of the of the show idea How To Die Happy is the thread that holds it all together is the 10 common deathbed regrets. And so we endeavour, in the ongoing discussions that we have, through the show, we endeavour to, to try to help people to avoid if at all possible, some of those deathbed regrets. So I suppose if we have the opportunity, and as I say, I'm aware, it's still a tragic opportunity. But if we have the opportunity to spend time with someone as they are dying, then perhaps we also have the opportunity to, to help them in some way, deal with some of their regrets, or, I don't know, maybe even a bucket list. A good friend of mine died when he was 32 of lung cancer, never smoked a cigarette, two babies. second child was only a few months old. And at the time, I had a lot more money than sense and and I, he expressed, he was terminally ill he knew he was going and the cancer had sort of spread through his body and into his brain. But I just asked him, I said, Look, if you could have a few things, what would they be in the wanting to jump out of an aeroplane. So we tried to organise that and he wanted to go to a comedy show, but he was so sick, he couldn't go to a comedy show. So my brother and I arranged for the entire comedy club in London to wait to come to my house. And we did a surprise night where we invited some of his friends and you know, had this like, wonderful comedy night, and it blew him away. And it's and it was just little things like that. I'm not suggesting you have to, we have to be that magnanimous. But I think in those experiences, certainly, from my experience, anyway, when you are with someone who's facing the end, they they genuinely are facing it, I think when you get to spend some really beautiful time with them, where you're not actually all sitting around going, Oh, this sucks, you're going to die. Actually, you get some beautiful, beautiful times and some beautiful experiences. And I think they get to show a bit more of themselves, and you get to show a bit more of yourself. So a lengthy response.
Rebecca Jax 1:04:08
Yeah, I think I took that as well, if you don't mind that, I think that one thing that I really felt deeply was the truth. Like really, really understanding the truth and seeing people for who they are like, when when someone's Sorry, excuse me, when somebody passed over, that had a cold, when somebody passed over. You just yearn to be as closer connected to them as possible. So, I mean, I think that now just being far more open about who you are, what you think your personality or the weird bits about you everything, just put it all out on the table because that's the closest that you can get to someone and really, when they pass over in the vessel that matters, you know, that you truly truly truly felt the who they were like in your bones rather than then guessing because sometimes it's quite Same for when you when when someone passes over and you didn't know.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:05
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And this, this whole plays to the, to the idea behind what we're wanting to do here and that is to, to just invite people to imagine if you have five minutes left to live, what would be on your list of deathbed regrets now. And if you write that down, and then just have a little think about where I'm going a minute, I've got more than five minutes hopefully. What can you do to tackle those things we put off death with death is death is the enemy. Thanks, thanks to religion, thanks to societal programming, thanks to Western medicine, death is the enemy, we are absolutely terrified of it. And I for one, I'm a huge proponent of having conversations with anyone who will listen to say, it's time to stop trying to fight death, we must embrace death as an unequivocal partner of life just as there's night and day, black and white. Good and evil. If you believe in such concepts, there is life and death. So with that in mind, I'm super, super grateful that you took the time to come and talk to us about such a difficult subject to some Becky, although it's not for you is it and that's, that's a wonderful thing. And I'd love if we could give people some sort of hope, or some practical utilities to end this conversation. What could you throw in to say, look, you know, some really bad stuff happened to my family, and to me, or rather, there were some terrible events. But here I am now, and this is what I'm doing.
Rebecca Jax 1:06:59
Yeah, that our pain is our biggest teacher. And I truly believe that we all came here to learn to grow to evolve. And the world the universe was our biggest teacher and I went through yet like absolute hell only to find out that this isn't home like this is some kind of stage where we're all playing a character for the next while but it means everything what we do with this time, you know, to not waste it and really start looking within like we have come so disconnected from ourselves and from, from the planet and from who we truly are, and all of the answers are lying there within the biggest thing I can say is find a supportive environment, the right people to just guide you through those early stages of learning and then you're on your way you know, like there's a multitude of things out there that are going to help you heal and that each of us can walk through suffering with grace and like that's where why every religious texts and everything talks about suffering and spirituality is because it's true and we don't need to be monks and spiritual masters and teachers to this is is here for every single one of us like I am you as you are me, we're both the same, just experiencing different versions of this of this life. So yeah, don't let it end you like, let it let it become you like grow and evolve and heal.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:30
Each of us can walk through suffering with grace, what a wonderful idea. Well, as balmy as it sounds, I could talk to you for hours about death, and all of this stuff. I hope any listeners who are in a bit of a tricky place can see that the humour in this because we must be able to see the humour in all of this as as, as Becky says, it's this a story. They're all stories inside story. Well, I said story, but I'm paraphrasing what you've essentially said. And that is it's a stage so and we're living stories inside stories inside a bigger story, and so on and so forth. So context is super important. Well, thank you. I'm super super grateful for for your time and for your energy. Becky, and I hope we can get you back on. Is there anything you'd like to say to to end
Rebecca Jax 1:09:43
To summarise?
Martin O'Toole 1:09:45
You don't have to.
Rebecca Jax 1:09:48
I mean, I'm trying to think of stony like a face that kind of one-liners
Martin O'Toole 1:09:55
Hit them up with some wisdom.
Rebecca Jax 1:09:58
Yeah, I just I truly think that believes and I know that just on the other side of this pain that you're going through, through through loss when it's just so unbelievable when you really feel like there's just no mentor at all that that is and so all of that lies inside of your body. Like that inner landscape is more expansive than anything you can see as far as your eyes as far as your eyes can see that there's, there's so much in just learning, you know, the world isn't happening to you, it's happening for you in the craziest way. Say that when you look to healing after loss, because there is this is going to happen to all of us.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:43
Yeah, many times in some cases. So I think that's a wonderful way to leave it. It's instead if we can have saying, Why is this happening to me, we might just for a moment, be able to stop and ask what is this teaching me?
Rebecca Jax 1:11:01
Yeah, what is teaching me. What do I need to know?
Martin O'Toole 1:11:06
Awesome stuff. Becky Jax, thank you very much.
