SUMMARY KEYWORDS
beautiful, bali, stories, book, meditation, sit, read, people, living, remember, day, wonderful, addiction, jake, sense, experience, waves, bike, energy, Drifter, India, adventure, travel
SPEAKERS
Jake Mackenzie, Julia Malcolmson, Martin O'Toole
Martin O'Toole 00:29
Hi, Julia.
Julia Malcolmson 00:30
Hi, Martin.
Martin O'Toole 00:34
You know what I was just sitting here, looking into your beautiful Icelandic blue pool eyes. Feeling very grateful
Julia Malcolmson 00:44
ah, when I eventually took off my sunglasses,
Martin O'Toole 00:46
when you eventually took off your sunglasses So for those of you who can't see Julie's eyes, for obvious reasons, because this is a podcast, she has got the loveliest blue eyes as we are. Thanks. Well, it's a week of gratitude. I think. I've been pondering since our interview with Jake, and my interview with Terry. Were going to talk about all that in a minute about gratitude. And about because of course, the two interviews are largely to do with addiction and recovery. And as some people will know, I'm nearly four years clean and sober. And yeah, listening to the interviews to do the edits. And having been involved with some Facebook communities around addiction recently, so I can talk about the podcast, I'm really, I'm feeling very, very grateful. And I'm grateful for you. Oh,
Julia Malcolmson 01:55
thank you very much. And gratitude. It's kind of one of the best things to feel, isn't it?
Martin O'Toole 02:00
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I should we discussed this. On the chinwag with with Terry and I, this week, we were talking about how, if people are struggling to find a meditation, perhaps gratitude is a really good, good place to start. Because if you can put yourself into a calm, stay and consider what you are grateful for, you can literally open your heart right there. And then can't you
Julia Malcolmson 02:33
Yeah, and just taking the time every day to perhaps write it down. You can use it in a journal practice, or just say out loud, like, you know, maybe when you wake up three things that you're grateful for. And then the end of the day when you're going to bed another three things that you're grateful for. And that's actually a really nice exercise to do together. So perhaps I might start asking you every night to, to tell me three things you're grateful for before you go to sleep.
Martin O'Toole 02:57
If I list both of your eyes. Does that count as two?
Julia Malcolmson 03:03
Can I do that one day? Okay, that's fine. That counts as two
Martin O'Toole 03:07
are created. Am I right? Create a longer list and rotate them. Yeah, and the other thing is was gonna add you that you can't laugh.
Julia Malcolmson 03:23
You can't edit it.
Martin O'Toole 03:24
Because? Well, I can. Okay, maybe I will edit it. I'll just be a really long quiet pause. Sorry, folks. The other thing I like to do is to regularly express gratitude to myself. Yeah. Not in a self congratulatory, aren't you? Brilliant, sort of way more in a thank you for bringing you to this place. Thanks for for the choices you made. Thanks for turning up. Thanks for working on awareness and observation, and trying to be a better person. Thanks for the mindfulness.
Julia Malcolmson 04:12
Yeah, that's a good one. And also another good one is to remember to thank your body. Know when I when I finished class, when I teach the end of every session, not every session, but when I you know, feel the need to. I always, always ask people to firstly, really thank themselves for showing up. But then also that reminded that we actually have to thank our bodies.
Martin O'Toole 04:33
Yeah, we absolutely do. And I think it's probably worth remembering also that words are spells. So, what we put out there, the energy that we put out, there really does count. And I think when you when you express his gratitude, either internally, quietly in your mind, or externally actually vocalise it, or as you say, write it down there These are really powerful manifestation tools.
Julia Malcolmson 05:05
Yeah, are you're grateful for our dogs and the many many lessons they teach you every day.
Martin O'Toole 05:16
Yeah, suppose I am. I'm grateful that they haven't yet yet. And they're not in this episode, although if I think on they are in this episode later on,
Julia Malcolmson 05:27
they have to make an appearance in each episode. It's kind of their their jam.
Martin O'Toole 05:30
Yeah, Ati and Muda are part of the how to die happy collective now really, aren't they? Although I'm not sure how insightful their input ever is on our episodes.
Julia Malcolmson 05:44
Oh, I don't know. Maybe it brings a little something to everybody. It's always nice to have a dog around
Martin O'Toole 05:50
a dog. We have to do. Yeah, I am grateful. I am grateful to those two dogs for the mindfulness lessons they've been serving up on 17 downtimes a day.
Julia Malcolmson 06:05
Patience levels.
Martin O'Toole 06:06
Well, I as as we've discussed before, I've I've had some fairly tempestuous weeks in recently, thanks to the detox which is six days away from closure. And I am feeling a bit happier and a little bit more. A little less emotional. It's been a roller coaster, hasn't it? Anyway, so who is on this week's how to die happy podcast.
Julia Malcolmson 06:42
On this week's podcast we have Jake Mackenzie.
Martin O'Toole 06:46
Jake Mackenzie cosmic wizard. So can you tell the folks at home a little bit about the incredible Jake McKenzie?
Julia Malcolmson 06:54
Yeah, of course Jake is a Waterman. He is a very very keen surfer and an adventurer. We first met him in his cafe, come shop in Bingin in Uluwatu. And we actually bumped into him in his library is their bookshop and got chatting and Vanna realised he was the owner and he is just created this incredible space that we very much call our second home we spent a lot of time in drifter eating their very very good food and buying a lot of books.
Martin O'Toole 07:29
Yeah, I mean shameless plug for Drifter, anyone finding themselves in Bali, not just aloha to if you are in Bali, and you want to go to a cool place, cool surf shop, great cafe, wonderful stuff, amazing food, and lots of cool stuff.
Julia Malcolmson 07:45
I mean, I kind of blame Drifter for the reason we're both on this detox because they do incrediblel vegan and non vegan but for us, we have sampled the vegan the vegan desserts. And we first got hooked on that vegan chocolate chip cookies. And then this just grew and grew until we were eating dessert every day.
Martin O'Toole 08:05
Yeah, chocolate mousse and their waggon wheel smashed up in the chocolate mousse. So shameless plug for drifter, surf, and cafe,
Julia Malcolmson 08:13
please a guy that's definitely lived his dreams and also got himself through addiction, starting off by cycling from Prague to Israel, as he was trying to get through through his habit. And this is very, very inspiring. And he's also a father. He's got three children and just seems to be living really living his dream life.
Martin O'Toole 08:39
Yeah. Yeah. Is whenever we get a guest on to the show, I always ask myself which of the the top 10 Common deathbed regrets kind of resonates theme wise with with this guest. And often it's more than one quite clearly. But with Jake It's, it's a load, it's a load of them because he's, he's 26 years clean and sober. And he is an incredible example of of what life can look like after addiction. And as he discusses in the episode, Jake had heroin addiction amongst other things, which is one of the more tricky drugs to kick and what he's done with his life after recovering is just, it's just phenomenal. You know, he's got this amazing life as you say, living his best life in on the the bucket peninsula of Bali and he he owns a surf shop. He's a crazy mad surfer. He's also a spear gun fisherman. They does free diving as well. And he likes to get out and about on boats and travels all around the Indonesian islands surfing and fishing. But I really, really enjoy Jake's take on life actually is a very, he's become a very grounded spiritualized person isn't as many, I think. But there's no pomp or pretence. They just you know, he's a dude with a T shirt and some swimmers on.
Julia Malcolmson 10:16
He's very, very genuine. Yeah. Then it's infectious actually has his zest for life. It's very, very infectious. It
Martin O'Toole 10:22
is and his energy. Wow, guys tell you listen to the whole episode, because I think at some point is during the Be my guest section, he answers a couple of questions. And so we just to give you an idea, we did a couple of interviews Jake included at this, outside this kind of Villa on this terrace, nestled into the cliff side of begin Beach, which is quite a steep cliff, in southern Valley. And the ocean was pounding against the rocks, and obviously the beach not not far at all from our terrorists. So you've got the sound of the sea through the entire interview. And Jake would just turn to these questions. He would just close his eyes, we all sat around a table are all sitting on the floor, outdoors, and he just closed his eyes to answer these questions. And it was a wonderful thing to witness. Yeah, man. Well, without giving it all away, should we just get on with it?
Julia Malcolmson 11:23
Yeah, let's let's listen to Jake.
Martin O'Toole 11:25
This is Jake Mackenzie.
11:26
Martin O'Toole 11:59
Well, you've done some stuff, Jake. But what's the wildest adventure you've ever been on?
Jake Mackenzie 12:10
To start with a question. The wildest adventure would have to be, you know, not mincing words, but the journey of recovery. But that's not really a short. Sprint is more of a marathon. If I was to isolate one wild journey, I'd have to say that riding a bicycle from Prague to Jerusalem, when I was 20 was a pretty wild journey.
Martin O'Toole 12:38
Walk me through that or ride me through it.
Jake Mackenzie 12:41
Sure, I'll pedal pedalling away. So I suppose I have to pre precursor, the actual writing by just saying that I was living in Prague, where I had found myself or woken one, one day, not from asleep, but from a stupor. And I was in a pretty dark place, physically, spiritually, mentally, and I was very much deep in the grips of addiction. Primarily, heroin, and everything
Martin O'Toole 13:24
more, more and more, more,
Jake Mackenzie 13:26
just pretty much just consuming without regard. And so you know, to set the scene I was there living in a squat with a few very questionable characters. Just like myself at that point. And you could do I like to say it was like a den of thieves or a den of vampires it pretty much we didn't, I certainly didn't rise during the day. It was all about nighttime prowling and everything that goes with that. And a series of events that culminated into a spiritual awakening of sorts, where I had a very much a breakdown, spiritually more than anything else, as well as mentally I was, I was pretty much out there. And just shortening that whole story, because that's a story in itself. The, the reasoning, the thought I had when I first kind of awoke, came out of the stupor was I need to get out of here. And I should buy a bicycle. I think I had a few few duckets to my name at that point. And I decided to spend it all on a bike, nice pedal, bike bicycle. And next thing I knew I was on this journey. And the first obstacle was that I had to get Out of the Czech Republic without a passport because I'd burned my passport somewhere along the line of Oh being
Martin O'Toole 15:06
rebelling against who knows what you decided you were a citizen of nowhere.
Jake Mackenzie 15:10
I had no identity, you know, can't explain the reason now, but I'm sure it was a very valid reason at the time. Maybe a little bit insane, thrown a little bit a little sprinkle a little bit of insanity. So I had to sneak out of the Czech Republic through the forest border of Austria, which formerly was, you know, Cold War border. So there was machine gun turrets and barbed wire, and I somehow managed to sneak out with a bicycle. What colour was the bicycle? It was a silver and yellow mongoose, so it kind of stood out. Yeah, clearly, like a wasp wasn't camouflage. Yeah, certainly wasn't a military spec bike. And I found myself driving or writing to Vienna, where there was an embassy that had the ability to reissue a passport. So that was the first port of call. And then I went, you know, I was following at that point, I was more living a more of an alternative lifestyle, you could say. And so I was following the rainbow gatherings. Okay, now familiar with the rainbow gatherings you are people listening. But they are or were they still are like a Burning Man without an electricity. And there was a lot of hippies and a lot of Earth worshipers, you could say and medicine, people and musicians and storytellers and all manner of folk. And every mid mid summer, for one full moon to the next. That was a European gathering. And they do it in the United States and other countries as well. And they still do it now. Yeah, I believe so I've been wanting in many years. Yeah, they're great, no electricity, you know, everything's based around fire. There's raw food kitchens, and, you know, healing areas and live music and most incredible music just around any fire on any given night there was like you could find the tableaus playing with a dead playing with a mandolin, beautiful singing, it was just, you know, that part of it was just beautiful, just so much creative energy, and people coming together to share. And the premise was no electricity, and no hard drugs, you know, one or two other rules, but it was pretty loose, and there was a talking stick that will go around. And that's how you make decisions and all the Wiser members of the rainbow community. So anyway, I was on my way to Slovenia, to a rainbow gathering in the forest of Slovenia, on a bike on the bike. So I had a purpose somewhat short term, one short term, and I had a didgeridoo attached to my bike and made a little rack for it. I had a drum that I'd made. So I was busking along the way. And I made it to Slovenia to the gathering, and spent a beautiful month there camped multiple different campsites, because I didn't really have much with me on the bike. I think I had, I think I had a hammock, a journal and like the clothes I was wearing one or two other possessions, you know what I mean? Like I said, a digital drum, and probably a hat. Because I definitely had a hat. Because at that point, actually, I wanted to be more like an elf. I had this dream to be, like, straight out a Tolkien was it? Was it a wizard hat? It kind of was a little bit point. I think it was a Peruvian knitted. Oh, yeah. Did hat.
Martin O'Toole 18:38
I like Peruvian hats. Well, could
Jake Mackenzie 18:39
it be the felt hat? I don't entirely remember. But I knew I had a hat. And I've won many different hats in this lifetime. So that's just one of many. So I had a beautiful month, camped in going around this beautiful Glade, TPS and kids and just good vibes, lots of love. And I met a crew from Israel, who were the rainbow crew from Israel, who invited me to the rainbow gathering in Israel, in the south of Israel in the Negev desert. And I was, why not? I have some family there. And I have kind of a genetic lineage that that stretches, stretches. So I thought, why not, you know? And so after the RAMBo gather when I started pedalling. furiously Forrest Gump story. Yeah. Great image in my mind interspersed with lots of colourful adventures. Yeah. You know, I you know, it's one of those things in life. You remember those very clear moments like I remember riding through a field of sunflowers in Slovenia, beautiful in the summertime, you know, and next to a river and just following this meandering this river and this old water mill, you know, just little flashes of them and I remember, you know, going down towards Croatia, you But the war was happening. So this was 92 or 93. Sorry. And getting out of there when I'm listening to you know, the rat that that machine gun fire and night, and going back through Slovenia into Italy, and I remember having the most delicious bowl of pasta interest. And my intention was to ride through Italy. But then I met this interesting group of they were Christian missionaries, who are on a mission to Albania to build an orphanage, and a church I think, you know, and I thought, you know, why not? They seem like nice enough people, you know, team up, I can build safe in numbers, right. Can't really build definitely, you know, I'm willing to learn how to build. So I followed them and then pretty pretty quick, sharp. I've realised how square they were. And I wasn't really interested in the whole vibe. Yeah, the package wasn't my package. Yeah. But you know, I had bid them farewell and I got on my way about that time I met a Spanish guy who's riding around the world on a bike and we kind of teamed up briefly. Did I mention that we took a boat to Albania? Okay, so we took a boat to Albania from chicest to tears or Tirana, a couple of Albanian Albanian never factored onto my radar ever wasn't a place that was late summer holidays and Albania, especially in 93 Right after the kind of the wall had come down and communism and evaporated not high on the list. No. But I I also had a the beginnings of a pretty bad staph infection. So I had this blood infection which was starting to materialise on my body as he's boiled excuse me so I just knew that it was a good idea to go to the ocean I just felt this great pool the ocean you know the healing quality of the salt and the sun and the you know the the breeze and you know what, what the ocean has like a health farm sorts you can say but you know the most natural one there is and I just knew that that was a positive for me like being on the bike sweating, you know and irritating this infection I had anyway, I don't want to bore you with details about an infection. But I wasn't healthy. You know, I was in a sense detoxing as well a lot of toxins were coming out I was kicking a habit and had you stopped using it I had I had cold turkey pretty much
Martin O'Toole 22:30
just been to all the while you're on the bike you're just going through cold turkey
Jake Mackenzie 22:33
I'm just pretty much just just Yeah, coming out the other side of a habit. So I ended up you know wasn't comfortable through our banner. It was a pretty fall on desolate country and my memory was like along the coast there was all these machine gun turrets from the Cold War days where they thought they were getting invaded and so I was like sleeping in this machine gun terrorists to stay out of the weather and kind of on Airbnb. They've probably done them up by now and figured out to find answer it. This is our real life used to be coming experience the 90s. So I couldn't actually wait to get out of Albania. To be honest, it was like a very foreign land with a very distinctly different language and not much food. There was like bread, which is boo. And I remember another word tongue. Yeah teta, which means hello and goodbye. My two words in Albanian. So long story short, I was able to ride through Albania through a series of pretty well that's I think I shared briefly about this experience I had this might be a little nice little segue where I was questioning what I was doing in Albania. You know why Albania? You know, and I was riding my bicycle this switchback trails up through the mountains because I decided to go towards the coast with the coast met the mountains anyway. And I've come to this beautifully abundant fig tree where I have pulled over and decided to just gorge myself on figs. And am I off topic you guys Are we all good?
Martin O'Toole 24:17
You carry on? I'm with you.
Jake Mackenzie 24:18
I'm with you in the figs. Okay, wonderful Europe figure fishing. So I've gorging on figs, and I'm in need of the nutrition and in need of the sustenance and was another one of those memories where I just had like thick juice just dripping down my face and I was just satiated. And I fell asleep. I fell asleep next to the fig tree next to my bike. without really any cares in the world. I was just content belly full, you know, relatively warm under a tree in the shade. overlooking this valley was a pretty idyllic little moment. Next thing I'm in lucid wake King's dream where I come out of this sleep state. And I'm like, awake and I'm looking around and I look at myself and I'm covered in armour. I've got like a tunic on and a leather breastplate and kind of leather, almost mini skirt is probably a technical name for that. If you're a Roman legionnaire, and I had a little short sword, and I had this plumed helmet on, and I'm looking at myself going, I look like a Roman, I am a Roman. And I had this very powerful waking experience of seeing myself as some kind of Roman soldier. And I remember looking into the valley and there was an old settlement wasn't old, my dream was there was a settlement, there seemed to be a market day seemed to be bustling. And there was action going on, and I'm just observing this and I realised, you know, I'm dreaming, or I had that realisation of snapping out of his dream, and I wake up and I'm not wearing leather tunic anymore, or armour. But I do see the valley and there's like, abandoned ruins is these ruins in the bottom of the valley. And it was very real for me. And I almost felt like the whole purpose of being in Albania on one level, other than, you know, having some adventures and experiences was to have this waking dream, who's to say, in any case, I was pretty much off on my way, then was able to get out of Albania and degrees. And grease was like coming back into the first world there were streetlights and straight roads and tarmac and, you know, people who spoke English and you know, more adventures along the way through the Greek islands where I My intention was to go to the island they filled the big blue one more gas, which beautiful movie stunning, wonderful cinematography and just that evokes the, the magic of, you know, last time and freediving and the simplicity of you know, the ocean and OCEAN, Ocean hermits and dwellers anyway, I got I got off on the wrong island. So I could see more gusts in the distance. But I was on this island called Nasir, where it was beautiful. It was just like a Mardi Gras, but different name. Except it didn't have a monastery up on the hills and it was nicer. And I stayed there for a month and heal myself of this staff. Pretty much just cleanse myself in the ocean. In the sun in the wind. I'd have like a few shekels with me or a few drachmas I think that morning grease and I was able to catch some fish. Somehow I got the spear going off these French guys, I don't exactly remember. And I was catching some fish swapping them for like stone fruit in the village and eating Greek salads and kind of starting to feel a little bit more whole a little bit more in my body. And the sea, the ocean was definitely a big part of that healing. You know, I found throughout my life when I've been away from the ocean. I've tended to be less, I wouldn't say balanced. But you know, I don't know what it is maybe less fulfilled, maybe something like that?
Martin O'Toole 28:10
Was this your first realisation of that on this adventure, your connection to the sea. Your healing connection to the zoo,
Jake Mackenzie 28:20
I definitely grew up as a youth we go to Hawaii, my father used to run the marathon and on Honolulu and at Christmas time. And I discovered the Hawaiian Pacific Ocean. And just beautiful over there, you know, on so many levels just there's a different energy in the ocean in Hawaii. And I think that's the first time I really connected with my love of the ocean. In a way I've always loved water in the ocean since I was very young kid. In fact, I used to oftentimes snorkel and have my flippers on in the bath. And then my mum would also say I would fall asleep in bed with a snorkelling mask on and flippers. So I seem to always have that affinity. But to answer your question, it definitely was an awakening, where I definitely did experience a different level of healing from the ocean. And just the knowing that that was what I needed. And just following that and following through with it.
Martin O'Toole 29:16
So how many miles do you think you did on this trip?
Jake Mackenzie 29:20
A lot. There's gonna be many.
Martin O'Toole 29:23
You've gone from Eastern Europe to Croatia to Italy, then back across
Jake Mackenzie 29:28
Albania, Albania, just north down to the border of Greece through Greece, through the islands. I got out at creating roads. And then like I said to Nasir knacks us, and from roads, went to Cyprus, and then Cyprus, Israel, and this is all without a passport. No, no, I hadn't got a passport at that point in Vienna, right. Yeah. They had an Australian Embassy. They didn't have one in Prague. Yeah, that makes a lot more less. I was, you know, I was into sneaking across the border under barbed wire fences for the pure by that adrenaline the adventure of it
Martin O'Toole 30:01
another adventure. So, so through that whole process, obviously, you're you're taking yourself through early stages of recovery. Yep. Did it get easier with this experience that you have in immersed in the nature on a bike not in a car, you know, taking in all the fresh air, the vitamin D, the like, but by the sounds of it, you weren't you didn't exactly have a nutritious diet. But was do you think your healing process in that regard was improved upon by by the environment?
Jake Mackenzie 30:36
Good question. being extracted, or being repositioned into a place that I didn't know. So the triggers weren't the same. And I wasn't around the same people that I was before who were also triggers in a sense, and, you know, previous party Deveny. And I was doing, definitely made it. I mean, easy is not the right word, but the easier to not struggle with wanting to get high. But I had before this fact, actually been to rehab before and been indoctrinated, in a sense by the recovery language. Yeah. And around the recovery people, and in essence, exposed to the 12 steps, right? It was a 12 Steps retreat. Yeah. Well, it was a 12 step rehab. Yep. And so I had experienced that, and I had experienced some level of recovery where I had changed. But the underlying reality for me as I hadn't given up, hadn't surrendered, and really had a, an awakening of sorts, where I really had no doubt that I was, you know, I had a problem. So in a sense, yeah, it was it gave me a buffer zone. It gave me time. And it gave me a positive physical habit, or a positive physical activity, obviously, being on a bicycle and pedalling every day. And, you know, like, they'd say, when you give up smoking take up a hobby, right? Well, in the sense that I replaced, I still had a mad brain or a mad head, you know, that hasn't changed. But I think as far as having a little bit of a buffer zone, yes, I think it was, was very beneficial.
Martin O'Toole 32:27
When I guess you in a way you replace using with adventuring, which is a pretty awesome thing to replace.
Jake Mackenzie 32:34
Absolutely. I go in one second to the next, literally,
Martin O'Toole 32:38
I when I think I'd been clean and sober a year, when I came to Bali, or just maybe a little bit over a year. But I have to say, actually having left London, moving to Bali, literally deleting my phone book pretty much. And starting again, that that really helped me the environmental change was was profoundly helpful, notwithstanding the fact that it was barley and valleys barley, yep, obviously, the home of healing, and so on and so forth. But it helped me not to be in the environment, the same environment, and with some of the same people who were enabling me. And of course, whom I was enabling not to shirk responsibility, we were all co responsible for what we were doing. So I suppose that does make it does make a huge change environment, and maybe sunshine as well.
Jake Mackenzie 33:31
I was ready. I think the, you know, the baseline experience for me, I proven to myself without a shadow of doubt that, you know, that was not my path. You know, I have I imbibe substances in a way that isn't beneficial for anyone, especially myself. And I have this, you could call it a sickness of sorts, where it's threefold, there's a physical allergy is a mental twist and obsession, and there's a spiritual disconnection. You can even take the word spiritual out of that, and put disconnection, you know. And the flip side of that, you know, when you look at the solution, it's like, fellowship in a way of being around like minded people, or being in an environment that's positive and healthy and healing, initially to start with, because I think once you go past those, that place, and you become one, you're able to help other people. It doesn't matter where you go. Yeah. And then also the, the physical aspect of it, of really not having any control of if you have one or 1000. You know, so it's like that the idea of craving. So, so yeah,
Martin O'Toole 34:48
I can relate. Yep.
Julia Malcolmson 34:50
How long did the I'm gonna get back to adventure a little bit here. How long did that take you to get all the way down to Israel?
Jake Mackenzie 34:55
proximately three months.
Julia Malcolmson 34:57
So I imagine there's a lot more stories
Jake Mackenzie 35:00
So many along that journey You know, just I was just thinking this morning about, you know how beautiful it is living in Bali. And in in in Indonesia as well on the whole that you have a lot of, you know this, these people have this idea that it is one of the biggest Muslim countries on the planet, if not the biggest, maybe most populated. And there's a lot in the West to consider that, you know, it's like we don't, you just don't. Islam is painted in a very specific brushstroke by many people. And it's there's a massive, generalisation made and what I've found to be the truth is we have some of the most incredibly friendly and giving people that I've experienced in Indonesia. And they tend to come from very poor backgrounds, and very humble people from humble beginnings who give you the shirt off their back. And so I experienced that in Albania at one point where I was, I cheated a little bit I got on a train. Sorry, man, but I felt like Jack my rank. I remember clearly I like her my mile feet dangling over the edge. I was like in a cattle car with the door open. Just just chugging along there. And there was this, this moment where this Albanian man, we started communicating, not talking because I didn't understand everything. He was saying you didn't understand anything. I was saying we were communicating using sign language. And I got his name, his name was castriota. I remember that. And castriota invited me back to his house to sleep in his house to eat. And I couldn't say no. And so you know, I went back to his house. And he lived in literally a hovel, like, you know, very, very basic favela type of environment. And he had like one little bed and his family, his whole family slept on the bed, and they offered me the bed, and they wouldn't take no as an answer. And I felt really uncomfortable. And they cooked. And I ate with them. And I just had this incredible experience of human connection. You know, and, you know, the beauty of it. So, yeah, many experience. And you know, when you when you look back and think about these adventures that I have, that we have that we all, you know, can talk about in our lives and pinpoint moments. You know, it's interesting what comes to mind, because I was just thinking about that this morning about the goodness of humans hearts, you know, and how we get tainted with some societies more than others by more, you know, and you know, disconnection
Martin O'Toole 37:39
and the pursuit of more. And the pursuit of things that arguably aren't really all that useful for us. I had a similar situation to that which you mentioned, I was in the Amazon, the Brazilian Amazon a couple of years ago, and I was a guest of the Naknek when tribe Ekaterina and they're down the all of the tribe, the tribe, then Dr. Quinn is kind of broken up over villages all the way up this huge road, you know, you had only been around that part of the world, but he's huge. And I went to stay with this. Cassie Kay, who's the chief and the pleasure Charmin we'd been doing some work with plant medicine up in Peru, in the Sacred Valley. And it was time for them to go home. My buddy, the shaman said, I'm going to take the guys back to the village you want to come? Yeah, why not hopped in a car and drove for, I don't know, two or three days eventually landed in this in this village. And they these days, the the Amazonian tribes are this particular tribe and they were they're not, they're not that backward, they've got wooden huts. Ironically, you know, still no showers and so on and so forth. Everyone's got a smartphone, which is kind of crazy. They have to go to a certain little tower, satellite tower thing, which all the villages use, so they can use Wi Fi is kind of a bizarre setup. But I remember specifically being invited by the Kasey Kay, to sleep in his house. So myself and my body are in two main bedrooms. And it only occurred to me halfway through this week, that these are only three bedrooms in this house, where is he sleeping, and I found out later on, he was actually sleeping on a porch, like at the end of the village, and he'd given up his bedroom for us. And same thing I couldn't understand a word these guys are saying that the connection we had was profound. And there's nothing wrong with more now with with you know, with consciousness in the sense of like, obviously, you know, we need to we I say we need to do our things and there's nothing wrong with having abundance. And at the same time, I think that's gotten in the way of that. It not, not always but it's gotten in the way of that connection. Yeah, with people you know, the simple sin We'll service of being of service or being of this in the service mentality on the mindset, you know, just look at our current state of affairs and see, you know, it's just like, people are benefiting from other people's misfortune misfortune, you know, and that's clear as day. Yeah. for all to see if you're willing to take a look at it. Yeah, I think that's probably the one of the most sad things. But it seems to be a reality of, of, of history. It's a relative of humankind. All that said, I genuinely feel as though we're turning a corner. And I genuinely feel as though our collective consciousness is very much shifting.
Jake Mackenzie 40:41
Interesting. To think the plan has backfired. Yeah. And some levels and other levels maybe it was preordained, and
Martin O'Toole 40:49
actually, loads of people woke up. So lots of people are doing their work.
Julia Malcolmson 40:55
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump forward to you coming to Bali, and you co founded Drifter, surf shop and cafe. Yes, is much more than a surf shop. I mean, it's, there's a Mecca to the surfing community. And to those of us that don't surf that would aspire to become a surfer, but currently are not there makes me
Martin O'Toole 41:14
one of us. Every time I walk into Jake's shop, I'm like, oh, man, look at these photos. So wonderful. Because it
Julia Malcolmson 41:21
is a creative and cultural immersion space. And to us it feels like home. And we've mentioned that team before and I think, you know, you kind of aspired to have that, that sense of home from home. And but obviously want to talk a little bit more about drifter in a moment. But what initially drew you to Bali
Jake Mackenzie 41:42
the waves
Julia Malcolmson 41:44
Yeah, of course,
Jake Mackenzie 41:45
I'm very superficial,
Martin O'Toole 41:47
was poetically.
Jake Mackenzie 41:48
But you know, I, I came here first time with my family in 1974. When I was just one, I just dated myself. And my mum and dad used to come here in the 60s. And so I think it was just in my psyche. And then I remember my sister on a year off from from school before University, she sent a postcard back in the day when we used to write postcards and letters. And she was in Bali, and she just talked about this magical mystical island with Puppet shows and magic. And it just, it just was very evocative and provocative for me and I just had this moment where I just almost had a knowing that I was going to live here. I just had this inner knowing. And so when I finally did come here and got off the plane at the airport as a as an adult, I just knew I was home. I just knew that this was the place for me. Maybe the smell of incense wafting, maybe the the hectic traffic situation may be the clove cigarettes and the barley coffee and maybe the waves, or probably the biggest thing is the people and the allure of this magical community magical island full of, you know, wonder much, much more that just scratches the surface, right?
Martin O'Toole 43:20
I've never been anywhere else in the world where people smile the way the Balinese I've been around, probably not as much as you've been fans of it, and certainly on a bike for the Balinese, I retired that bike sounds a bit you run it into the ground. It retired itself. But overall proportions, but I think I think the Balinese have a beautiful, beautiful energy about them. And it's so natural for them as well, isn't it? It's, there's no it's simple.
Jake Mackenzie 43:54
And just a wonderfully creative island on so many levels. I mean, you can look historically, and they say the Majapahit empire, migrated, Islam came through to Java and things started to change. A lot of the artists ends and the creatives and the you know, priestly classes migrated to Bali. And so that's it's underpinned, but I would say even prior to that this islands magic just has this incredible .
Martin O'Toole 44:23
Where's the energy, isn't it? It's, it's on global ley lines. Yeah. We were reading about this the other day where we the Yeah, that's one of the portals is energy portals around barley as one Nero's in a Gong is one down here it's all the temples have in your back garden. Really? Yep. was the other one there's another one maybe you would
Jake Mackenzie 44:46
think likely? I mean, feels like the whole island is activated on Yeah,
Julia Malcolmson 44:50
and most people tell you don't they that they were drawn to Bali like something told them come to Bali and you just you listen. Yeah, eventually.
Martin O'Toole 44:58
Well, everyone who everyone Who is drawn here has an amazing story to tell. Yeah.
Jake Mackenzie 45:05
And the clear like, like, like the creative capacity and ability to create is amplified here for me. And I think a lot of other people, we can feel the same way about that. So the incarnation of drifter on some levels is an expression of that creativity, a combination of lifestyle, passion, hobbies, sharing community was born out of that need to have a space like that, for me, and for a few others to, you know, like, I like to, I like to see myself as a lighthouse builder. You know, I'm not trying to blow a trumpet, but I like to see that as a way to just create more light in this world, or be a part of that movement. And so Drifter in a way as an offering, and at the same time, a viable business and a place to, you know, experiment and have fun.
Martin O'Toole 46:00
Well, of course, we saw we saw you last night, because we have become regular attendees at your cosmic whale event, which is also a Drifter. I wonder if you want to talk about that for a minute. Because I would love for, for people to listening at home, all around the world to to track some of these down because you see them doing
Jake Mackenzie 46:19
so we've, we've, we've been engaging with the cosmic wealth. Over the last six months or so. It's been a project in this time. And it is a storytelling event, which we invite storytellers to share. You know, True Tales, told Live, as we put it, and share stories of trials and tribulations, triumphs, and, you know, failures, you could even say and, and just life stories and sharing, and connecting, and inspiring, and maybe warning. And we've been having positive success with it. People have been loving it.
Martin O'Toole 47:02
They're brilliant. And there's a theme of course for for the whole thing.
Jake Mackenzie 47:06
Yes. So the theme, in essence is a point in your life, after which you would never the same, maybe almost what we're talking about today where, you know, you have these incredible revelations, or you have seemingly, you know, horrible thing happened that turns into a blessing. And, you know, everyone's got a story like that on some level. So in a way, it's, it's also sharing those stories and knowing how to time them and have a beginning, a middle and the end. It's very similar to the moth. Some people are familiar with the moth, which was a storytelling event started in New York, where they were they share exactly that, you know. So I was inspired. I've been inspired by many people, obviously, and by many different circumstances. But when I was in Prague, there was a English character who went and he was from I believe he was from Manchester, but I don't entirely remember and he was a barrister, one of those proper wig wearing barristers, who dress up in the black and whites and go to court. And he had a bit of a spiritual awakening to decided to chuck in the job as a barrister and become a bard. Nice Yeah, to become a BB and it's
Martin O'Toole 48:19
a difference in income. For show and clothing,
Jake Mackenzie 48:24
yeah, he basically chucked in the job, and border hop, and started learning, Bardic stories in the Bardic tradition. Love is a, you know, is an ancient Celtic tradition where these, these bots have to learn X amount of stories. And so almost like, you know, Joseph Campbell, about where the warrior where you're learning these archetypes or these stories are related to that, you know, the heroine and the girl and the dragon and the, you know, the king and the, you know, the Joker, and, you know, the love stories, these classic archetypal stories. And so this guy, his name was Dora J, or Thunderbolt. And he had this purple cloak, with stars and moons and other things kind of emblazoned on it, and a pointy hat, and a carpet. And he used to sit up on the bridge in Prague, cause bridge and roll out this carpet, and have a magic hat there just in case people wanted to donate. And he tells stories with his heart. And you'd sit on this carpet with them and just be transported into a different time and place and space. And it always struck me there was this barrister who became a bard on the bridge in Prague, telling stories about dragons and princesses and, and he was as content of a person as I've ever met. And I just really respected that as like an old tradition that in our society in many ways we've forgotten. Yeah, because we use these You know, these boxes could be, you know, television. And it's a very different type of programming. So the cosmic Well, in a sense is is definitely a sharing, and a community building experience, and much, much more, you know, a topic of discussion.
Martin O'Toole 50:20
Yeah, in the community. And I think that's another wonderful thing you've done is, I think he's so to say that drifter is very much at the centre of the Ottawa to community Anyway, you've been here for a long, long time, and you are a Mecca, you are that lighthouse, but, but I think, certainly, from what, what I've experienced, we've experienced going and talking to other people, it's a wonderful opportunity for us all to check out of our own stories, and just check into others. And I think the other lovely thing about it, is, it's a wonderful reminder that every one we see and meet is going through something, we don't know it, we have no idea we might have a fleeting introduction to that person might just be a smile, or it might just be a scowl. But actually, everyone's going through something. And what I love about the cosmic whale is you will stop and spend 25 minutes telling us some of those stories, one of those things that's driven them because stories are transformation. Awesome. So it's such a diverse group of people you've heard so far.
Jake Mackenzie 51:24
So we've got it on YouTube. unashamed, plug here. Drifter surf has a YouTube channel, do it, and the cosmic whale channel. So if you're interested in hearing some of the stories, you can plug in there.
Martin O'Toole 51:38
That is a worthwhile plug. And there is a link to the drifter website, also on how to die happy podcast.com forward slash on dash, the dash show and you will find a a very fetching photo of Jake with a knot but some swimmers and a giant surfboard use that picture. Click on that one. And you'll get to the website and where you can find him all over the internet. Am I wearing a wig? No. But we we wanted to make it portray and couldn't get the context of the surfboard in there, just like you were in the water with a wig and just perfect. Kind of didn't do the job. So here you are in Bali, living the good life. So I'm going to hit your with the big question. What does happiness mean to Jake?
Jake Mackenzie 52:32
Happiness? Yeah, that is a big question, isn't it? No, the interesting thing about this whole two year period, is how one evaluates our footprint on this planet, or, in a sense, I suppose doing medicine journeys, you you, you understand the the imprint that we're making on the planet, and how we're impacting everyone around us, and you know, the earth? And so to answer that question, I would have to say, I feel most happy when I'm helping other people. You know, I think, talking about spirituality, for lack of a better word, it's like, spirit. So lifting someone else's spirit. You know, and I think that, for me, recently, I've been engaged more and more with working with other people less fortunate than myself, and really feeling more purposeful, and that there's no ulterior motive other than it actually makes me feel really good. Yeah. And it's a natural high in a sense of, you know, really having a purpose. And I do that with other recovering people. So that, in a sense, if you talk about the 12 steps is the 12 step. And doesn't need to be it's the premise of many spiritual traditions of being of service of taking actions and not being attached to the results. Easier said than done. I'm not speaking from any high place here because I certainly am still very human and have my frailties and foibles, but when I do engage in service, and that can also mean doing the dishes. But, you know, I don't want to get caught in the weeds here. It's more along the lines of happiness for me equates to doing my best to be of service to those around me.
Martin O'Toole 54:33
And you've been cleaning sober. 26 years. Yeah, yes. So when did you when did you get to the 12 step and then begin regularly practising service to others.
Jake Mackenzie 54:46
You can get to the 12 step in the first few weeks your server? You know, there is no they do they do have him in a numbered sequence for a reason, but you can go from step one To step 12, you know, there's nothing that's stopping anyone from. By helping other people, you're helping yourself, essentially. But you can't give away something you don't have. So in a sense, it's like the experience of, you know, let's just say somebody struggling today with just not having a drink. And you happen to be okay today, because you've done a few things. And so therefore, the ability to practice, the 12 step is available. You know, I don't think there's, like, the beautiful thing about that particular programme is no one's on a pedestal, although we're humans, and we put people on pedestals, and anyone is available to be of service to anyone else who's a little bit less fortunate than, than them. So for me, straight away,
Martin O'Toole 55:43
I have to say when, when I first did some voluntary work at a rehab, that was because I, as you know, I didn't follow the 12 step process. My sobriety journey was an alternative one, it didn't involve therapy involve traditional therapy, although, ironically, we weren't discussing my alcoholism and addiction. At that point, we were discussing the roots, not the symptoms, which, as I realised, as I later realise was was exactly what I needed to hear what I needed to do. But for me, actually, plant medicine was and meditation and yoga, were and breath work were the sort of main things that helped me get through my final cravings and pangs and plant medicine, as you likely know, for some people can have a profound effect on addiction completely changes the way our brain works, and does some of that root work that fixes the broken psyche. But I did a I did a short stint working as a volunteer. And, man, you know, that's the rewarding stuff right there as you're grateful. That is the rewarding stuff. Just I remember. I remember I had done one session, and I came away and I was talking to my brother and he said, How was how was it? And I said, buddy, I've been working my nuts off for 25 years, I thought I was doing great legendary stuff. It's just all been obliterated in 45 minutes, and I've done the most worthwhile 45 minutes worth of work ever didn't know why. You write great grateful comes into it. Because we this was this was people on the first the first step into this into a 30 day 12 Step programme. So they were they were coming off planes drunk or high because they knew
Jake Mackenzie 57:44
anyone coming off a bicycle?
Martin O'Toole 57:46
I don't think so.
Jake Mackenzie 57:49
Thank you. I'm certainly not alone.
Martin O'Toole 57:51
I think you were alone in that regard. But I would say unique, not so not alone. But yeah, these people are absolutely in need of help. And and some didn't want help, either. It was they reluctantly turned up to, to the clinic, because of course, they were forced to by friends, family, or even employers. He was locked. You either go to the rehab, or we're having nothing to do with you anymore. So yeah, so all power to him. And it's
Jake Mackenzie 58:23
kind of like you mentioned it to I think that combination of prayer, meditation, yoga, whatever it is, is definitely recharging the batteries. And levelling out and then being of maximum service or maximum service is probably a big, big call, but more available, because at my meditation practice, I'm always going back to the present, mindfulness being here, being now in the body with the feelings, understanding that I'm not this mind, I'm not these thoughts. I'm not this body. I'm not this puppet. Yeah, this story, you know, transcending that and being really available and present enables me to be more of service,
Martin O'Toole 59:05
no doubt, because you've, you've got conscious awareness. And some people haven't achieved that yet. And it's a wonderful thing to be able to. That's one of the things we're trying to do with this podcast. Essentially, we are trying to give people, utilities, stories and practical utilities of how they might begin to do this work. Absolutely interesting. I was reading, rereading Gabor Martinez book in the realm of hungry ghosts, which I bought from your shelf. It's a terrible, it's a genuine tome that's massive, but he talks about Dr. Jeffery Schwartz and UCLA is research on the near created four steps. Remember all that was written a while but essentially, the treatment was actually developed. The four step programme was developed to treat OCD, but they recognised The the glaring similarities between OCD and addiction because of course you've got the obsessive behaviour. And it wasn't designed to replace the 12 steps. It's designed to complement it. But having read it, it feels quite like a good set of utilities. I'm not going to read through all of them, but the four steps are relabel, re attribute, refocus and revalue. I think you probably get a little weird as to where that's going. Actually. Marty then added his own fifth step, which was recreate which all due deference to Dr. Schwartz, he wanted to just talk about, okay, once you've done all of that work, what's next? And funnily enough, we just, we just recorded another podcast with your our shared friend, Alexander Mandela, where we were talking about once you've done the healing work, what is next? Because the intention is not that we spend our whole lives healing. Fair enough, because a lot of us have spent our whole lives suffering. But the intention is to do the healing work, and then move on to the stage of purpose of finding purpose. And I think that's where, where Marta was going. But he, he said something really nice here, and I've just got to try and find the words, we know that the addicted brain assigns a falsely high value to the addictive object, substance or behaviour, the process called salience attribution. The addicted mind has been fooled into making the object of the addiction the highest priority, addiction has moved in and taken over your attachment reward and incentive motivation circuits, where love and vitality should be addiction roosts. And he goes on to talk about the distorted brain circuits. But essentially, the point and purpose of these steps is to enable the addict to engage with conscious awareness. And then to be pragmatic about their story. Their goal is, you are not your story. You are the result of faulty brain circuits, which may or may not have been created in your first year, first eight years, the formative years. So he does a wonderful job in in promoting the concept of what Buddhists would call mindfulness. So 20 years ago, 26 years ago, yes. When you began your sobriety journey, we, in the West weren't talking about mindfulness. We I imagine, we're talking more about higher purpose. Jesus, God. And so I wonder how your journey has transformed from beginning to 12 Steps talking about God and a higher power to, to to now practising mindfulness.
Jake Mackenzie 1:03:15
Yep. Okay. The first thing that comes to mind is, the longer I'm doing it, the less I know. saying Go for Life. And so, I've been stripping away, like you were saying, more of those frames that have been imbued inside my process and dismantling the understandings and simplifying and re simplifying and re addressing, you know, and in the last few years, my meditation practice has become much more front and centre in the sense of, I really appreciate what it brings into my existence for relationships with everyone around me, my wife, my kids, my friends, the people I work with all animals, you know, the list goes on. So mindfulness, in a sense, is a word that might be more hip or more, you know, used but I think the the ancients from the however long we've been on this planet practising, you know, being human. You know, you see many different beings talking about the same thing with a different language perhaps. So, the bass note baseline of the 12 step fellowships, that is in my understanding, is they from a Judeo Christiane Christiana ik viewpoint in the sense that they were created in the last century. And they were created in a Western environment in the Western world, which is primarily Judeo Christianity. You know, obviously Islam features in the East more. And so that is the, the reference. That's the language. That's the base note. But underneath it, the real language is all about its broad, roomy and all inclusive. You know, it is working hand in hand with the spirit of the universe, whatever language you say that it makes no difference what belief system or verbiage or words you use, it's an ancient way of connecting as humans. And that is my understanding of the 12 steps, it is a way to have a relationship with spirit. Yeah. And therefore have a relationship with people. And it bypasses any language in any bounds and any belief systems. And so bringing it back to the mindfulness, you know, when I realise on a daily basis, sometimes second by second, that I am not my thoughts, that I am not my mind. As I said, I'm not this puppet, Jake. You know, I'm much, much more but also, you know, it, it brings me to another understanding of who am I? And then the question, that's the question. That's what we can keep going back to the time again,
Martin O'Toole 1:06:39
yeah. But I suppose the point is, you're asking that question. And that's the distinction. Yeah, we talked about this, on a recent new the recent episode, the idea that actually, all of these things we're talking about all of these modalities and techniques and methods of healing, do all come down first and foremost, to having the ability to exercise pure awareness. And I can't remember the name of this doctor, I don't know if he's a quantum healing doctor. But I listened to a couple of his meditations, he does a meditation called a pure awareness technique. And two guided meditations, you go through it, and yes, asks you to be aware of all sorts of things. Be aware, obviously, you've got your eyes closed, you're aware of your arms, your legs, your chin, your whatever, your, your, where you are in the room. And the tricky bit is, and obviously, this is early days in my journey, and my meditation should be that was when he said, Are you aware of your awareness? Are you aware that you are aware? Yeah, and I'm like, Whoa, Inception? Yes, I am aware that I'm aware. Wow, the observer. Exactly. Right. And as you say, therefore, I am not my mind. And I'm certainly not the voice inside my head.
Jake Mackenzie 1:08:01
Well, I don't quite know what that is, is the kind of yellow submarine or something.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:06
Ah, yeah. Well, for the listeners, we are on a an open terrace nestled in the cliffside on bringing beach and some big waves crashing and something yellow is floating
Jake Mackenzie 1:08:30
I was I was listening to a wind wire meditation yesterday and he's talking about from the biblical sense again from the Torah, the name of God is I Am that I Am. And then I think the Hindus have a very I probably butcher this but tats fat Tom or arm I forget what it is now, but you know I Am that I Am. And I had the good fortune in 2019 to go to India to Ramana Maharshi is ashram in or nodular. And I fell in love with him. When I read a book. I'd heard of him in passing over the years, but I read a book by Paul Brunton called in search for secret India or sacred India. And in it, Paul Brunton would go around these mystics in India, and, you know, he went all over and it was in the 30s, I think, or even 20 over the 20s. And he finally came upon this, this character, Ramana Maharshi, who was sitting there under this mountain, elder Naturalia, in this beautiful ashram. And he hadn't spoken in many years, but he was surrounded by devotees who he taught in silence. And I always found that to be just mind blowing that all these people would sit at his feet and learn from him in silence, just meditating, or yeah, he was emanating, he was working with him in meditation. Wow, I was. I was and I went there and I had a profound experience I, in a sense, When I look at how I can dissect it and understand it from a 3d, mind, perspective, I can't. But on another level, I look at it I was in the grace. I was in this grace, where I was just like, almost in another frequency altogether. And he'd been his hurdle. He's left his body for decades, but his presence and effervescence and being is still very much available. So who was he? Who, you know, who am I? Once again, his famous meditation technique is self inquiry, which simply says for the practitioner to simply inquire, who am I,
Martin O'Toole 1:10:41
over and over again, in repetition, until such time as you receive response? Nice. Yeah. Wow. So you, you just joined a number of devotees who are sitting in silence. You sat you meditated? Does he work like a show, like a shaman in that regard, then kind of dancing in, in and out of people's experience in and out of their meditation,
Jake Mackenzie 1:11:09
I can only speak about my experience, but it was profound I went to had no real expectation of what was going to happen. I'd never been there before. And I discovered quite quickly, a really beautiful rhythm where I was waking up at 4.30. And I'd go sit in this meditation hall, where he used to sit at a dais raise days, and in essence, teach and stone walls. Very, very rootsy, very rustic Indian. And I sat against this wall, and I will just sit meditation and just the quiet and the peace was palpable. So there's just this incredible, peaceful energy. purveying everything. And then there was a window, and I would feel the light starting to rise. And then right as a lifestyle arise, there was this chanting that came from the main hall with all the women doing this beautiful chant. So just women's voices singing this ancient I don't, don't don't know that the the translation of what they were singing, but it was this most sublime beautiful harmonic chart. And then you just pulled like the use of the honey, and then go on to this main hall and just sit and listen and meditation. And then they would do a morning puja where they would go around and you know, by the end of the puja, by that time, they bless the Bhagwan was buried underneath his main stage. So it was interned under the ground and built this beautiful temple above him. And that priests would go and bless the milk and, you know, the sweet fruit. And then you would go around and you take Prashad, or you receive this blessed fruits, similar what they do in Bali. And then you know, you get the dirty on the third eye, and you'd be blessed. And that was by like, 730 in the morning. So by 730, in the morning, I was flying. Wow. And you had the whole day. And then and then what? And then, generally speaking, what we do is I went there with a friend of mine, who's another meditator from Sydney, Pete, we'd go across the road, and sit in the chair shop with all the Indians, and just sit there and sip Chai generally weren't hungry, might have a little snack or something. And then we would go back into the ashram and climb up the mountain, about a third of the way to a cave, where the Bhagwan had lived for 20 years in silence. Where there was a story that a 13th century or 14th century Saudi who had achieved Moxa or enlightenment, and he burst into flames, and they made this Lingam, you know, the lingam is the male, as opposed to the Yoni the male penis, or the male form, and he'd covered this lingam in a sacred cloth. And we would sit in that cave and sometimes meditate for hours. It would, would almost slipped by and seconds. And in this grace in this energy sitting in this que, which had been meditated in for hundreds of years, and lived in by Ramana Maharshi, who is no doubt and ascended, incredibly, beautiful, powerful master, and you could not help but feel the grace. Yeah, for lack of a better word, or just the effervescence of the energy of what he exuded. And that was like 1030 in the morning. Yeah. You know, so I did this for a few weeks. Nice. And by the end of it really had the most remarkable experience. It's hard to define in words, but I think I just described you kind of think you didn't want in practice.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:50
You did a wonderful job.
Julia Malcolmson 1:14:51
Makes me want to go back to India.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:53
You were in an ashram?
Julia Malcolmson 1:14:55
Yeah, I've spent I spent quite a lot of time in India over the years. So yeah, I can definitely relate into that experience, but not in such depth. Actually, that sounds insane.
Jake Mackenzie 1:15:04
It was simple. It was a routine Actually, it wasn't wasn't complicated. It was just like, we just did the same thing because it was working. But then to go back out into the real world, or real world, for lack of a better word, you know, I, it was, it's a sweetness that I want to go back to, I can see why people want to be next to the guru or next to that ascended master or really enlightened being, who taught in silence. Yeah. And that's brings me back to that thing with Paul Brunton. He sat and taught, and the stories about him, you know, people receiving incredibly profound insights and experiences in silence.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:43
I did the type of Rata. Yeah, in Bali, which is a seven day silent retreat. And it's hosted by a healer. Very. Yeah, very powerful man, beautiful man called pack murder adder. And it's up in the jungle north of Bluebird. And that was my first experience of, of a silent retreat. And I'm a chatty chap, as you know. So it was also my first experience of any prolonged silence and, and this was no books, no paper, no pens, obviously, no technology. And I had to share a room with a couple of guys. And every day, we were up with a gong at 430 straight into the meditation or, and we just meditated or listened to his teachings for seven days, it was, it was a profound experience, not on the same level, I think is being in the presence of the energy, the resonant energy of a holy man, although Pat murter is a fat Mirta cured his own liver cancer, through music through meditation. So this chap is a particularly powerful healer. And he teaches a certain type of meditation. But I have to say, when I finished that, I remember I had to get out of the country to reset my visa. So I get on my bike, shoot out through the forest, had this wonderful ride through Central Valley, you know, 50 shades of green and, and just laughing and crying the whole way and interacting with the kids who are hanging out the backs of trucks, with an air to go home, pack a bag, get to the airport, and then go to Kuala Lumpur, for a weekend, you know, to reset my visa, my gosh, you're talking about going back to the real world. I was actually borderline depressed. I supposed to say that stay there three nights, stayed there one night, went back to the airport, bought a ticket and went back to Bali as quickly as I could because I having experienced that silence. And that serenity within it was it was a nasty contrast to go back into the world. I suppose.
Jake Mackenzie 1:17:51
You have to take a little bit of like, decompression and just compress back into it. integration we call it then we integration. Yeah. So after that very briefly, I went on to Oroville which is a community right outside Pondicherry. Yes. It's very mind expanding in this incredible vision.
Martin O'Toole 1:18:09
That's the huge
Jake Mackenzie 1:18:11
circular dome is where the sacred geometry the golden Yeah, they have the meditation space. There's a name for I forget it now. But I also went to see the tomb of Sri Aurobindo and meditated at the tomb it was very similar, though so once again, a holy person's space so you could plus all the energy in the same as barley and all that energy and and prayer and power is put into something that
Martin O'Toole 1:18:38
creates its own energy stays Yeah, you've 1000s of people doing that if not millions of people or if it was incredible. Well, hearing your stories and hearing Jules stories prior to this many times I have to say India is on my list when this when the when the world comes down India is on my list. I think as a place I'd love to visit and go to an ashram and do some of this very frustrating
Jake Mackenzie 1:19:01
country to it's gotta go
Julia Malcolmson 1:19:04
it has it all. Oh, yeah, one day you love it the next day you hate it
Martin O'Toole 1:19:08
know I understand that. We've been rambling on and we haven't given any airtime at all to be my guest section of the show. So as you know, we always offer you up as a as a recipient, to our listeners. And we have two questions for you today.
1:19:29
Martin O'Toole 1:19:40
This is more of that beautiful song. That's beautiful. And I should probably just play the questions.
Jake Mackenzie 1:20:07
You don't have to me you can.
Candace 1:20:10
Hi, this is Candace from California. My question is how to die happy are in spite of the fact that I am not reconciled with his son who has a lifelong drug addiction?
Martin O'Toole 1:20:24
Well, thank you can this big question? And I suppose we have different perspectives knowing
Jake Mackenzie 1:20:32
which is being a son as well, what you got? Well, that's Candace, that's a it's a very profound question. How to reconcile, I would would ask is to start with, would Candace be in communication with a son? Or is it purely reconciliation from her inside herself? You know, I would have to say that I have children, my children are still young, so I haven't experienced them in addiction. And, you know, knock word I hope I never do. I do have friends who struggle with their kids who are in addiction, and I know how much pain it causes them in their heart. And, obviously, you know, it's a really hard one, because, you know, not that I would put out something on the party line and say, Well, you know, go to Al Anon and practice, you know, acceptance, and, you know, and detachment, because it's when, when it's your own children, obviously, that's easier said than done. One tool that I use, is, I meditate. And after I meditate, I say prayers. And in those prayers, I particularly pull in the faces of the people I'm praying for, and about, and if I don't know their face, and I just focus on their name, obviously, you know, your son. And in my prayer part of it, I, you know, just send them love, and send them light and send them healing in the sense of offering them up everything that would make their heart sing, and would give them joy and happiness. And I feel in a way, that's probably an answer for your son in the sense that you have no control over him. He has his own experience in life, and, in a sense, his own understanding of a higher power, or God, or even if he doesn't believe in, and therefore you have no power over him in any way other than the way you feel in your heart towards him, which obviously, as a mother, you love your son. And I don't know if our reconciliation, I think that's a big one. But I feel that sending love and light and all the positive imagery that you can, you can pull out and give to your son, you know, and we'll bring more peace to you. And maybe we'll help him by lightening his burden, as opposed to sending him any negativity or darkness, which is easy to do, you know, being upset and angry and sad and fearful. That's the other side. So I don't know if that answers the question. And I don't even know if it's about happiness. I think it's about acceptance and peace and detachment in love. So yeah, I hope that helps Candice.
Martin O'Toole 1:24:02
I thought that was absolutely stunning advice Jake, brought some tears to my eyes there as well. Actually, Alan Watts on he wrote a book about happiness. They almost called it the anatomy of acceptance. In fact, he didn't call it the anatomy of acceptance, but the publishers said, now we need a catchy title. I think in accepting you can find a great deal of happiness. It's a It's, we don't know kind of his full story, do we? But I couldn't possibly say anything on top of what you've just said I, for me, it's, it's about sending love and light. That's all you can do. And if you don't have any contact with him, then at least you can have contacts in that way. It might feel like it's one way or one way signal, but that's okay. As long as you're feeling that and that's really all you can give him so yeah, man. Epic risk Bond's Jake. Thank you,
Jake Mackenzie 1:25:01
came from my heart.
Martin O'Toole 1:25:03
Yeah, felt that Okay, question number two.
Jake Mackenzie 1:25:07
Hi Jake. The more time I spend in nature consciously, the more I recognise that there is an element of communication there, you know, between whether I'm sitting consciously with a tree or a rock, etc. And I find that that's the times when I get the most clarity on on certain aspects of my life. And I was wondering as a surfer, whether you've had any sort of big moments of clarity or any kind of lessons learned or teachings if you like from the ocean?
Martin O'Toole 1:25:38
Lovely question, you
Jake Mackenzie 1:25:39
hear her level of what a lovely accent and voice Yeah, great question. Thank you for asking it. A few things springs to mind straightaway. And yeah, I love the ocean. And I agree with you being in nature and being quiet nature and being present and in the body, and you know, feet on the ground or in the water is a really recharging place for me as well. And I appreciate it, especially in meditation too. And I have two little quick ones, we're actually not just focused on the one I like to surf bigger waves. And I'm very comfortable in more you could say treacherous environments, I tend to be able to relax, which I find to be key just really relaxing, and breathing and centering and being calm. I think that's a very a prerequisite for surfing on bigger days. And I for many years in Bali used to attend what was what was known as the Bali Spirit Festival, which was a festival of lots of music and yoga and healing community and food and workshops. It was wonderful. I used to have a product called surf Yogi's was a sunscreen made out of chocolate basically. Anyway, that's another story. So I used to go to that. Yeah, I used to go out there and participate. And it was about a week long. All in all, and so sleep it was up in Uber, which is kind of the home and centre of yoga in Bali. And and after week, one year I was feeling so plugged in and so calm and in a sense more feminine in my energy I felt very, I don't know more feminine it was it was just seemed to be that way who would has that? That tendency and at that point, I was kind of like that way more Yin you could say. And I've come back to LA to where I live and I serve and aloha to had a very large swell there was there was massive waves you know, when you gauge it, there were 20 foot faces, 25 foot faces even. And I had this very calm, centred demeanour, I pretty much came off the mountain paddle straight out in these giant waves. And I was just in the flow. I just felt so in tune with the ocean, and I was almost calling waves to me. And I had a seamless session and it stands out in my mind because I was really at peace. I was really balanced, I think, maybe not at peace, I was really balanced. And my you could even say the hemispheres were were balanced. And I was able to combine that real strong kind of Yang male energy in a, you know, technically dangerous environment with this very calm, relaxed, flowing female energy. And I was able to harness those both together and serve a beautiful session memorable to this day. It was as if I was calling waves to me. So I think that might answer in some ways. It was more along the lines of it just being balanced, I suppose. But yeah, thank you for your question.
Martin O'Toole 1:29:03
Is there a specific frequency to the waves of the healing frequency that you are probably plugged into?
Jake Mackenzie 1:29:15
Yeah, definitely. The simple flow of trim. So when you're engaged with a wave, almost like the rail of your board is engaged with a wave and your body is very much engaged with the rail with the wave. There was a very pure form of energy exploration and energy flow that transcends words, and even more rootsy, I find is I write a board called an Elia which is just a thin piece of wood with no fins and it's just it's an ancient Hawaiian board and they say hey, Nalu, which means and I gotta remember what it means. It means I believe it means to flow into ride, you know, excuse me, If anyone speaks Why am I hitting now Lou probably defines it. And in a sense, when I engage with the rail on a layup, and just feel the most perfect trim, or trim and glide, trim and glide, when I feel the most perfect trim, it's as if it's like, there's no difference between you and that energy. And, you know, when you talk about when we talk about energy, you know, it's just that idea. I think Timothy Leary said I've got a quote, drifter that talks about, you know, the surfers are not the black sheep. We're the ones who like, we're in the moment in the barrel, with a whole world exploding around you, the your, your, your footprints are gone. The future is unfolding. You're in the present moment in the tube, just feeling this most perfect symbiosis. It's like enlightenment. Yeah, you are so and and every molecule and electron neutron in the body is just poised and in action and active and you just available literally in the present moment. No other place you kidding waiting tube does like baptism.
Martin O'Toole 1:31:09
I wish I've got some more practice to do before I get to that level.
Jake Mackenzie 1:31:14
Well, don't give up. get tubed. If everyone on the planet got tubed. It'd be a much better place.
Martin O'Toole 1:31:23
I think we said in a couple of episodes ago, I was talking to my friend Richie about our first Ayahuasca experience. And he said, if the whole world didn't ask a ceremony, at the same time, we would have world peace. So I think perhaps if we could combine that somehow with a with surfing, then yeah, we'd all be we'd all be vibing Yeah, we need to get out there, don't we? We do it on the agenda. And he says, Well, I'm going through this process on I'm fixing the inside of my body right now. Then I'm going to start the outside soon. Build up the shoulders again and start to and then get surfing. Probably not on bingin beach though because the paddle out is absolutely exhausting.
Jake Mackenzie 1:32:02
It's right on our doorstep.
Martin O'Toole 1:32:04
It's just a long paddle out
Jake Mackenzie 1:32:06
it can be it can be
Julia Malcolmson 1:32:07
I've got some fear to work through I think for being thinking waves.
Jake Mackenzie 1:32:12
No, that's the beauty of it. You can start in your own a week. I've been going to Sri Lanka for many years, you know with the kids got three kids and we go to Sri Lanka, the country of south of India and there's some very gentle, beautiful pointbreaks You know, with elephants and ancient Shiva temples and peacocks and great curries, hideaway, Aragon Bay is a great place to go as as an unashamed plug. And that runs hotel, it's good to learn surfing is not great to learn surfing, very gentle waves, not like not really on the reef on sand. Okay, cool, little bit of reef at the main point, but it's a very good place to learn.
Martin O'Toole 1:32:49
You had me at not on the reef.
Julia Malcolmson 1:32:54
So Jake, we first met you in your incredible bookstore within a cafe. And you've given us many book recommendations, and you're very well read. And we wondered what your top five books would be that you could recommend to someone wishing to learn the arts of living well.
Jake Mackenzie 1:33:13
Right, wow, surprise me with this one not gonna pull that out.
Martin O'Toole 1:33:16
Well, you know, all of those books, so we figured we well figured you might have
Jake Mackenzie 1:33:20
that. And once again, it comes down to the type of mood I'm in on any given moment, you know, when you're ready to read something, but I would have to say, right now, I'm really digging the Four Agreements. I think that's a very good blueprint and agreements to make for living. And it's a very simple book, once again, doesn't doesn't mean that it's not deep and meaningful, but it is quite a simple read. I have to say, I love Jonathan Livingston Seagull. It's one of my favourites. It has to be in that the top five. Yeah. You know, I'm reading Emmett Fox, the Sermon on the Mount, which is a beautiful book about the science of prayer. Essentially, I've not read that. And he's a Christian mystic, but don't let Christian scare you away. He was very open minded, open hearted Irishman. And his definition of the Lord's Prayer is cosmic. Truly it's a beautiful Yeah, beautiful. unveiling of a different aspect of truth. Once again, using the flashlight of Christianity as the language. And then I read daily the Bhagavad Gita. I love the Gita. And at the moment I'm reading economic Iswaran is translation. I've got a few different translations, but I really like his synth. Once again, simple, very, it's translated in English. It's got a really nice, you know, he has his dialogue in there as well. How many is that? Four? Four. Okay, and then next Godzilla was next to the bed. guy I've got I've got three more next to the bed. I'm just gonna tell you a seven we can have seven. So I am that Maharaj Nisargadatta. Truly cosmic you can open that book on any page has been dumbfounded. The surrender experiment. Wonderful.
Martin O'Toole 1:35:22
One of my favourites, yes. And
Jake Mackenzie 1:35:26
what's his other book, surrender experiment and Oh,
Martin O'Toole 1:35:30
Untethered Soul Untethered Soul.
Jake Mackenzie 1:35:32
So I've got that next, but hadn't read that in a while, but it is next to the bed.
Martin O'Toole 1:35:35
These are Michael singers book
Jake Mackenzie 1:35:36
Michael singer. Correct. So that's just a little couple, you know, and then I'll throw another one in. You want to be a little bit different that could could, you know, five snaps, this is up. There's a book that was written in late 60s. Science fiction. That's a little bit different. And it's Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein. Beautiful book, but scientific, sorry, science fiction. So that's how it's packaged. But it's very deep and cosmic and spiritual. You could say,
Martin O'Toole 1:36:11
didn't Iron Maiden bring out a song called Stranger in a Strange Land likely? Sounds like about Ray hops inspired by the same book rum to do and yeah, I was I loved Well, that's a really great, let's say it's, I think it's a sort of thing that you should be able to add to on a regular basis. Sure. There's a way for you to share your Yeah, your top books, but I always take your recommendations and yeah, slowly but surely, least buying them. I'm not sure if I've got through them all, but we have a lot to read.
Julia Malcolmson 1:36:44
But I love reading
Jake Mackenzie 1:36:46
we have a cosmic book club at drifter. And we meet tonight when Thursday nights, okay. And so we have a short we have a short list of books.
Martin O'Toole 1:36:59
Carry on Ati and Muda making star appearance in the in the show again. Carry on.
Jake Mackenzie 1:37:05
So yeah, we have a we have a book study or a book club. And we sit and drink tea and talk about books. So I am going to be releasing the top 50 books in the library as kind of a updated, updatable. The stoic daily meditations is a new one I've just come across. It's just a daily meditation book. And I also read Eileen caddy. She's wonderful. I read her daily meditation. She was the founder of Findhorn and Scotland, which is an incredible community conscious community. And she has a wonderful daily meditation book. So I think there's probably enough books
Martin O'Toole 1:37:42
well, but it's a good it's a good place for people to get started. One of the things we want the podcast to do is provide stories and utilities. Now we've we've certainly given them a lot of stories. And I think we're into the into the utility territory now by by giving people some inspiration for the things to read to kick them off, because of course, it depends on where you are on your journey, doesn't it? Yeah, I read that it was Robert back, Richard back, who wrote that? Jonathan Livingston, Seagull delusion. And he wrote illusions. I read illusions first, which is actually quite a complicated concept for somebody who, when I first read that I had not even meditated and done nothing. I was, frankly, dumbfounded by the whole concept. And there was only about a year later. Livingston Seagull. I wish had started with that. But the point is you can you I think I find that these books often find you, you know, like where you are, and you're on your journey of awareness. They they find you at the right time, somebody might recommend a book, but you say, All right, thanks. Yeah. And you take it, you don't read it. And then suddenly, two years later, you're going wow, that was amazing. But had I read it two years prior might not have resonated as well? Totally.
Julia Malcolmson 1:38:57
I'm yet to read the final chapter that's been found. I haven't read it yet.
Jake Mackenzie 1:39:01
It's it makes complete sense. Does it really does it you you could omit it didn't really need to be written actually, because you're ready to engage it but it's nice that he puts it into words. Yeah. I hadn't read that. I'd read it many years ago and was like, oh, yeah, yeah, Ishmal another great book. Yeah.
Julia Malcolmson 1:39:17
We've got that, didn't we? We bought that after talking to you. Wonderful.
Jake Mackenzie 1:39:21
And enlightened gorilla.
Martin O'Toole 1:39:23
Yeah, we've got to read all these and of course, I chose the President mentioned the the alchemist Paulo Coelho. Yeah, I found a quote that I thought might be interesting to share. On this particular episode, Paulo Coelho wrote, don't fear the light within me to ignite the sacred flame inside your soul. I like it. Yeah, I quite like that. So I suppose speaking of Paulo Coelho, you're a beautiful example of an alchemist. In our opinion, thank you. How do you think others can become alchemists for themselves?
Jake Mackenzie 1:40:05
Very good question. To, to start with, the practice of meditation is a very good way of grounding oneself. And bypassing the noise of the mind and starting to listen for the that small quiet voice that will never steer you wrong that comes from the heart. And in the three dimensional world are you joyous with what you're doing in life? Or you join us with profession you're in? Or you enjoy us with the living situation you're in? Or you joyous with the relationship you're in? If not, question that. What do you really want to be doing? Not based on your parents preconceptions or society's misconceptions or your friends expectations, but more what your heart really is singing like Joseph Campbell said, Follow your bliss. But you got to figure out what you really want first. And when you figure out what you really, really want, then I believe that's when the alchemy really begins. And the magic really begins, in the sense of just creating your reality, exactly where you want it not defined by anyone else's perceptions or understandings. But based on your own heart, and your own true true desires. And like I said, going back to the simple, the most simple fact of sitting still, and being quiet, and doing that daily repetitiously for weeks and months, and years, no doubt, that voice will become much clearer. And if you listen to their voice and take action, then that alchemy becomes more and more an active part of your day or the magic becomes more and more of your active part of his day. So yep.
Martin O'Toole 1:42:14
I've got a lot of time for you just said that Mr. McKenzie. Made a lot of time for all of the things that he said. Although unfortunately, we don't have any more time for this podcast that
Jake Mackenzie 1:42:26
was given good time. Yeah. Well,
Martin O'Toole 1:42:29
I am so grateful to you for your attention and energy and and your words. It's been a thoroughly enjoyable conversation, hasn't it? Yeah.
Julia Malcolmson 1:42:37
Thank you for sharing your stories with us.
Jake Mackenzie 1:42:39
My pleasure. Thank you for listening.
Martin O'Toole 1:42:40
The only downside is that because we enjoyed it so much and we run out of time, we must have you back
Jake Mackenzie 1:42:46
would happily, to this environment, for sure.
Martin O'Toole 1:42:50
For sure, thank you so much,.
Jake Mackenzie 1:42:52
You two, Beautiful. Thank you so much.
Martin O'Toole 1:42:54
You are a superstar really appreciate it. Pleasure. who's in love
