SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, indonesia, queer, song, indonesian, community, world, album, sexual orientation, life, country, gay, podcast, suppose, write, family, usa, change, lesbian, jurisdictions
SPEAKERS
Kai Mata, Martin O'Toole, Speaker 6, Julia Malcolmson
Martin O'Toole 00:00
Hello, Jules. How are we doing
Julia Malcolmson 00:03
pretty good.
Martin O'Toole 00:04
What are we doing?
Julia Malcolmson 00:06
We are all we doing what are we doing? On a blue couch?
Martin O'Toole 00:10
We're sitting on a really, actually really comfy couch.
Julia Malcolmson 00:12
I was thinking this might do nicely at home.
Martin O'Toole 00:14
Yeah. See if we can steal it from the starlight production studios, we carry out the door. I think the casting crew or sorry, the crew are watching us right now might notice that we still one of their sofas. So but what are we doing?
Julia Malcolmson 00:31
We have just recorded our first podcast in front of an audience with live music and in front of cameras with a crew,
Martin O'Toole 00:42
which was I don't mind I mean, pretty nerve wracking. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I mean, it's usually you may at home with the dogs. And somebody comes round on a scooter, you know, in a pair of shorts and a T shirt and sits down and as an interview, so it's usually quite informal. Or we're doing it online.
Julia Malcolmson 00:58
And it's noticing that we both forgot to wear shoes today.
Martin O'Toole 01:00
Well, that's because we're hippies. But yeah, how great was that? Well, I suppose we should talk about who we interviewed.
Julia Malcolmson 01:07
We interviewed Kai Mathur and who's co Mata she's first off a friend of yours that you met sound good in
Martin O'Toole 01:15
2019 at the genius beach cafe in Sano Bali. Yeah. And she was singing
Julia Malcolmson 01:23
Yeah, and she's an incredible singer. She's really glad you introduced me to her stuff. Because the songs today like when she plays Live that really vibed with me,
Martin O'Toole 01:32
she has the something that just gets you which is you've obviously just experienced when I first heard she was she was doing the same thing. Just an acoustic guitar, just her singing. And it was absolutely I don't he infiltrated me. Yeah. And in a beautiful way. She's got a, quite an impish voice. impish sprite like I don't know. Magical
Julia Malcolmson 01:55
is magical. And the way she kind of evokes love in to her lyrics and the way she sings it. Yeah, it made my heart go a little bit funny.
Martin O'Toole 02:05
Ah, well, me too. She was absolutely profound. So So what did we talk to Kai about?
Julia Malcolmson 02:11
We talked to Kai a lot about her journey, as a minority, as a
Martin O'Toole 02:15
minority in the LGBTQIA plus community,
Julia Malcolmson 02:19
and also how that affects her being where she is in the world. Because obviously, that journey is very different, depending on where in the world you live. And she gets a lot of it into her songs. But always with that little, as I mentioned earlier, that little side of love. So it's like a really nice way that she brings her activism into her songs. Yeah, it's
Martin O'Toole 02:44
a so I suppose we should explain that. K is an Indonesian singer songwriter, and an obviously an A lesbian and outed lesbian. And she is a she's under a lot of pressure in Indonesia for being so there is a lot of bigotry. And while some nasty stuff, death threats, we talked about, we talked about the religious aspect of it, the political aspect of it. And what she's done for me is she's she's managed to take a real nasty, nasty, heavy burden on her shoulders, and transmute that into as you say, transmute that into into love. And into these beautiful songs, which are also incredibly witty, they are very busy, but the song What's the song that she she did? Oh, pray, let's pray away. You're gay. Yeah. Amazing. When you listen to that, it's always great song. But it's also quite funny.
Julia Malcolmson 03:47
And also, so many people wouldn't react the way she has to what she's had to go through. And she's really, as you said, She's transmuted it. And she's used, the feelings that have arisen to create. The creation is such a great outlet, but it's also helping so many other people.
Martin O'Toole 04:03
Yeah, and that was the other thing that she said that really resonated with me was the fact that when she lets these songs go, regardless of where she is in her journey in her life journey and whether or not it still resonates for her six months, or a year later. She knows that those songs are resonating with people in need of hearing this music right now. And they are you know, lest we forget there are there are people suffering daily for the sexual or gender preference. Which to you and I is insane. And too many people in the West will be insane. But it's a very real issue around the world. Well, shall we get on and check out our interview with K matter? Yes.
Julia Malcolmson 04:46
Let's have a listen. Well,
Martin O'Toole 04:48
this is Kai Mata
Kai Mata 04:50
Don't you wanna die happy with the smile on your face, waking up laughing cuz you're free of all the things that would hold you from your ocean view. Life is a landscape. Why don't you paint it your way?
Martin O'Toole 05:23
Scientists say that lesbians have more orgasms than straight women discuss.
Kai Mata 05:28
I would say that's true. Anecdotally, I would say that's true.
Martin O'Toole 05:32
It's a fact.
Kai Mata 05:33
We can also poll the audience I'm pretty sure we have a lot of
Martin O'Toole 05:36
data. We got any straight people and lesbians otherwise it's going to be a an unbiased, or rather a biassed poll, isn't it?
Kai Mata 05:43
I would also say that gay men, a gay couple has more orgasms than a heterosexual pairing as well.
Julia Malcolmson 05:50
I'll give you some facts.
Kai Mata 05:52
Thank you very much, Julia.
Julia Malcolmson 05:54
Okay, so there's a survey from the Kinsey Institute. And it found that lesbians orgasm 86% of the time during sex compared to 65% of straight women, those in same sex relationships. So the orgasms an average 55 times a month, women in Straight. Relationships. Seven a month.
Kai Mata 06:14
Wow, what inequality
Martin O'Toole 06:17
suddenly sucks to be straight.
Kai Mata 06:20
I mean, when it comes to the performance of your sexual endeavours, I can't speak on behalf of them.
Martin O'Toole 06:24
If I'd known about this, I'd just become gay earlier
Kai Mata 06:27
I think it would have been good for you, Martin, you still have time?
Martin O'Toole 06:30
Well, you say that, but apparently maybe not in some countries. So we did a we start to do a bit of research. Obviously, before we plan to have a chat with you. We learn some really kind of quite shocking stats, didn't we? And frankly,
Julia Malcolmson 06:44
I think it's 72 countries, criminalise LGBT. Q plus, that's, I mean, that's 72. That's a huge percentage of the world.
Kai Mata 06:56
It's a big population. And it's also not just about the criminalization from a legal standpoint, but also the societal impacts on what the viewpoints are on a society standpoint, that is pervasive, unanimously around the world, even in the most developed countries that are the most liberal. And these are the nuances that I think are so important to discuss the covert homophobia, which is hidden in countries like the UK, and the USA, and Canada, and also countries that have more overt homophobia and hates such as, of course, the UAE. And unfortunately, in my case, my home country, Indonesia.
Martin O'Toole 07:36
Yeah, no, you make a good point. So when you say covert homophobia, what sort of examples have you experienced?
Kai Mata 07:42
I mean, I think the biggest example would be the use of the word gay as an insult, which I still hear among the youth population. And I thought that would have died with my generation. And it's something I said when I was younger without really realising the impact. But it's something I still hear from kids as young as like nine to 10. Using that as an insult, also the fact that a lot of countries in many states in the USA, do not have protections against discrimination in the workplace or in housing for people who are in the LGBTQIA plus community. And from that lens, I would say that's more covert because you can Herald and celebrate with the legalisation of same sex marriages. But when we still have children, who are in the queer community being the biggest population of youth homelessness in the USA, we still have issues.
Martin O'Toole 08:33
Wow. That's a scary stat. I'll match your stat and runs it fabulous. So 71 jurisdictions criminalised, private, consensual same sex sexual activity. The majority of these jurisdictions explicitly criminalise sex between men via sodomy buggery, this is all inverted commas by the way, and unnatural offences laws. Almost half of them are Commonwealth jurisdictions. 43 jurisdictions jurisdictions criminalise private, consensual sex activity between women using laws against lesbianism sexual relations with a person of the same sex and gross indecency. Even in jurisdictions that do not explicitly criminalise women, lesbians or bisexual women have been subjected to arrest or threat of arrest and you've got two more,
Julia Malcolmson 09:20
there's more, Yeah, so 11 jurisdictions in which the death penalty is imposed, or at least a possibility for private, consensual, same sex sexual activity. At least six of these implement the death penalty, Iran, northern Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Yemen. And the death penalty is a legal possibility in Afghanistan, Brunei, Mauritania, Pakistan, Qatar and the UAE. 15 jurisdictions criminalise the gender identity under expression of transgender people, using so called cross dressing in personalization and disguise laws. In many more countries, transgender people are targeted by a range of laws that criminalise seams next activity and vagrancy who hooliganism and public order offences
Martin O'Toole 10:05
kind of organism.
Kai Mata 10:07
Try to operationally define that right. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 10:10
I mean, you sexual hooligan you? Well, that's just a flavour. And I have to say we were super surprised to learn. And it's probably naive of me. But we are super privileged. We've come from the UK, where you're absolutely spot on, there is still covert homophobia, and often in the under the guise of humour as well. But of course, it's not funny if you're on the receiving end of it. But one thing we couldn't quite get our head around was the Indonesian laws, because there seem to be some, some shifting sons and some contrasting messages
Julia Malcolmson 10:45
very contradictory from what we were looking through. Yeah,
Kai Mata 10:49
Indonesia is a weird place, you have a country that is made up of 18,000 plus islands, hundreds of different cultures and traditions, so many languages, and of course, so many sexual orientations and gender identities. I would say that to then create one sense of a united country is really hard with one viewpoint. Indonesia, more recently has tried to propose bills that mandate conversion therapy for LGBTQIA plus individuals who are suspected of being in the community not even confirmed. That bill, fortunately, did not pass. This was proposed in the early 2020. And, but it shows the position we are in as a minority in Indonesia. And it's unfortunate, we still have areas of this country where it is outright illegal to be gay, such as Archie, which is one of the most conservative areas of Indonesia, and is also under Sharia. So there is a religious influence in that aspect. And Indonesia can make the statement that they do not have a national law that criminalises the LGBTQIA plus community, however, we are seeing the use of existing laws to target the community regardless, we call them robber laws, because they can bend to the perception of who wants to take advantage of them.
Martin O'Toole 12:23
Okay, so they can in that regard, and appear to be more reasonable than they are.
Kai Mata 12:29
Yeah, then again, we have the Indonesian psychiatric association with a statement that said that the LGBTQ plus community have a mental illness. Yeah, that's a brilliant one, right?
Martin O'Toole 12:42
It's amazing. I mean, that for me was when it became funny. And of course, I realised it's not funny if you're again, if you're on the receiving end of it. But such comments to me are the beggar belief. Yes, it makes absolutely no sense that you could suggest that someone's sexuality, or their gender identity had anything to do with with mental health or mental illness specifically,
Kai Mata 13:09
that's what was the case when you grew up? In the UK? Alan Turing is a good example of a brilliant man who did incredible wonders for the world as a mathematician and scientist, and was killed for his sexual orientation.
Martin O'Toole 13:26
Yeah. And, and back in his days, and even in my parents days, growing up, there was still a huge amount of bigotry in the UK, and so many people, therefore never came out. So you had this whole ongoing issue with families breaking down as a result of that as a result of hidden sexuality and sexual preferences. So yeah, doing this research, and preparing for this, this discussion. I think it was kind of a Yeah, it woke us up a little bit, didn't it? I think I think in as much as you know, I like to think we're doing our bit with the podcast in a different way trying to help people with mental health and understanding the art of living well. But then, because I Google came matter, lesbian, and, and the Internet exploded. So I figured, I'd like to ask you a little bit about that. When you first came out. I think it was on Twitter, right?
Kai Mata 14:27
That was my really big coming out publicly. Hashtag coming out on unintentional to become viral. But yeah,
Martin O'Toole 14:36
it is safe to say it went viral. Yeah,
Kai Mata 14:39
I would say it did.
Martin O'Toole 14:41
So do you want to just for the sake of our audience, you want to just tell tell a little bit of that story.
Kai Mata 14:46
It was February 2020. And I had just heard about Indonesia's proposed bill called the family resilience bill, the one that wanted to mandate conversion therapy for people suspected to be in the queer community in Indonesia. That infuriated me and made me so scared for myself first and foremost, because I knew that there were photos of me online with like rainbow flags, I had been to pride in the USA. And I was quite open. And to recognise that my openness could be used as a weapon to then criminalise me and force me into conversion therapy. Scared me. It scared me to the point where at first I froze, and then I realised I wanted to do something about it. I sat down in my living room on the floor with my iPhone up, I recorded a 30 minute spiel, I had written like a thesis, to say, and when I was editing, I whittled it down to 30 seconds of a video clip. All I said was, Hi, my name is Kai Mata, I'm Indonesian. And I am also flaming gay. Into the internet exploded, and it wasn't because I came out it was because I came out with my face and my name links to it. It didn't become something that was anonymous or hidden in the shadows. There was a sense of a human behind these words. And to the shock of Indonesian Twitter, my 78 followers somehow share that enough where it ended up with like half a million views, and was picked up by new sites internationally. Because people were so shocked that someone would have the audacity to say that with their face and be very public about that, which is insane, isn't it? It is it shows where the bar is set, which is at the lowest level possible.
Julia Malcolmson 16:48
Yeah, and I must have taken incredible courage as well. I was
Kai Mata 16:51
just stupid. And I didn't think I posted it in the morning, I hopped on my bike, I went to meetings, I came home, I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm on the news. I've made a decision that will affect my life forever.
Martin O'Toole 17:02
Yeah. Lots of reasons why I wanted to get you on the show, because we met maybe three years ago,
Kai Mata 17:09
2019 in March.
Martin O'Toole 17:11
And I was sitting on my own waiting for some food outside. Genius cafe. Yes, I know. And there was this amazing, sprightly folky voice singing. And I just realised you were doing this little live gig, which was absolutely amazing. So we got chatting afterwards, didn't we? We should still, to this day, one of my favourite gigs I've seen in Bali. Thank you very much. Singing your life. Sorry, hearing you sing life. And of course, we're going to hear you sing live today during the show. So after that happened, and you became infamous slash famous, you had to crowds and didn't you you had, you had a lot of international support, which we can talk about? Well, first and foremost, I want to focus on the the absolutely incredible wave of hatred that hit you off the back of that.
Kai Mata 18:05
Yeah, I would say that hatred came in two forms, it was the very visible one. And then the very subtle one, the subtle ones I would say came from communities where like, we don't care about your sexual orientation. You don't have anything to be proud of. You shouldn't have pride for this, just live your life, we don't celebrate being straights, which came internationally and is a thought and opinion that a lot of people hold in places like the UK, and Australia and the USA, things I've experienced personally. And then we also have the extreme side of hate, which is like death threats telling me that I should be stoned, that people are trying to look for my private information to docs, me or telling me that just slurring just a bunch of slurs pointed at my direction, and targeting me as an individual, but also the community as a whole. And in cases like that, I really had to foil that with a lot of the positive messages. And the biggest thing that made me realise the worst of what I was doing was was hearing people say, Wow, I didn't expect an Indonesian person to ever say something like this in my lifetime. And was that people from Indonesia, or from people from all over the mostly people in Indonesia? Because I guess the rest of the world didn't know that Indonesia was on I mean, the rest of the world doesn't even know Indonesia exists.
Martin O'Toole 19:31
Well, you make a valid point. And I suppose it takes me back to the point I was making earlier on that we had to fully understand the level of bigotry and the the lack of understanding from a governmental perspective as well. And so you've got to come in from both sides and you and you're quite right, the UK. I mean, I didn't know what am i I'm 46 now so when I when I've When I was first at school, I remember at primary school, I had a friend called Lee, who essentially was gay. And but he never told anybody about it until he was about 1617. And I think he was probably the only gay person that we knew of in the school. But then we only had one Asian person, che anthem pathmanathan And I remember his name. He was a Hindu kid, really lovely guy. And we had a Rwandan refugee called Crispin mazzucco. Lovely love. The point being that minorities were an absolute minority. Back in the 80s. This was early 80s, when I was at school, and certain nobody was was going out of their way to express any alternate alternative gender or sexuality. No way. Everyone just kept their heads down. So I think in that regard, we we went from having that nobody, nobody really appeared on the radar to fast forward to 20. When did I leave? 2019? I lived in London. So London is an you've been to London, right? Yes, I have. London's an incredibly accepting city. In many ways across all cities, all countries have levels of intolerance and bigotry, we know that. But I think on the flip side of that I was I was fortunate to be in a place where, you know, anybody could come on the tube, wearing whatever they liked being whoever they liked, kissing whoever they like, nobody would would give him a second look,
Kai Mata 21:32
to a certain extent,
Julia Malcolmson 21:33
it's still there it is there and the depths of London.
Kai Mata 21:36
And then the thing is, it's rarer, which is nice. And we want to be able to freely express ourselves and a lot of us do. However, there's always a lingering fear that something bad might happen. Like in 2019, two women on a bus, were physically assaulted by a group of men. They were on a date, they were holding hands and cuddling. And these men were goading them and telling them to kiss more perform for them basically sexualizing them and reducing them, reducing their sexual orientation to a fantasy. And these women tried to escape by going to the second level of the bus, the men followed them and assaulted them to the point they were both in the hospital. So we have those lingering minds, even when I travel abroad. That's I am safer. But am I fully going to be respected?
Martin O'Toole 22:32
No, I appreciate that. I remember being in Switzerland, Lugano, with a couple of gay friends. And we were sitting outside a cafe in in a square, we were drinking wine. These guys have since got marriage, lovely pair of fellas, and they were holding hands. And I didn't notice it first, it was Damien who noticed that you just just saw that. All dotted around this cafe and outside. There were people shaking their heads. And, you know, giving them these sort of weird glares, I was quite as quite drunk as my days of being a fairly surly alcoholic. So I was I just went into strike defence mode and sort of basically told them all in Italian to to avert their eyes. Otherwise, I'd poke them out. I don't behave like that anymore, incidentally. But again, that was a shocker to me. But and then Damien told us about about an assault, bad assault he had. But yeah, I fully appreciate that. And and it must be an incredibly difficult thing to constantly have in the back of your mind.
Julia Malcolmson 23:38
No one should have to live with that constant fear.
Kai Mata 23:41
No, no one. And unfortunately, that's the case for a lot of minority groups, not just the LGBTQ plus community on a worldwide scale.
Martin O'Toole 23:51
Yeah. Well, and I suppose in this regard, I would say, I mean, I've been randomly assaulted. I was walking across a bridge in New York one time five guys got out of a K car and beat them beat the living daylights out of me. Because they were trying to I think they were trying to steal my wallet. But I suppose the point is, that's less likely to happen with with majors walking across the street as opposed to two guys holding hands walking down the street, two girls holding hands or kissing. It's insanity. And yeah, it's a bit of a shocker. So you were getting 400 death threats a day I read
Kai Mata 24:28
roughly I didn't keep track did you actually currently or was it just a rough I would wake up and see like 1000 messages on like Facebook and Twitter and I knew like my thought was I have to archive everything. When am I going to do that though? Because I had to really prepare myself to be in the right mind set to face that and not take it personally and also, at the same time, take it with the gravity it deserves because a lot of people wants to say that hate we get on Mind is something we can just push out of our minds. But it carries a weight, it is real, and we don't need to justify it or reduce its facts.
Martin O'Toole 25:11
Well, I was interested in that, because I felt you dealt with that incredibly well at the time. And I remember keeping a close eye on and how you doing. And I know, you know, you did some podcasts and you did some pieces where you essentially, you know, you were like, Yeah, it's fine, fine, fine, but I know you, then you took a bit of a checkout from social media, I did wonder, because you would be well within your rights to be absolutely devastated off the back of that. And I wondered how that did affect your mental health.
Kai Mata 25:39
It made me recognise not only that I was taking a risk on my own life and my livelihood, which I knew going from the beginning that this is something that may have consequences for me. I had to then take a look at potentially having an influence in and my parents and family and my loved ones experiencing the consequences for my actions. my support network, and my family and my partner are so supportive of my life and my love. They did not choose to become an activist by proxy low.
Martin O'Toole 26:15
No. Everyone had to back your play as an activist, I suppose.
Kai Mata 26:20
Right. And the biggest way someone could effectively hurt me is not to hurt me directly. It would be to attack the loved ones who are innocent bystanders around me. And I know that and that is what has made me really take pause. And continuously double, triple check how I approach conversations, I was recently told by a member of the Human Rights Watch, he was here in Bali on Christmas vacation with his family, and he's like, I need to meet with you. Like, immediately. And I said, Okay, I meet him at a cafe, his wife and his 10 year old daughter is sitting there, they're having like, a pleasant conversation between the two. And he's like, Yeah, I brought you here, because I want to let you know that what you've been saying could be misconstrued as defamation, and could be interpreted that way. And I have a feeling that you're going to be put in jail, defamation against the government, I guess anyone. And I know you'll want to run away, but don't run away, stay in jail for the rest of your life. It'll be important for the movement was like, Oh, wow, he's like, Yeah, I have been known to people have told me that I can smell danger. And your case reminds me very similarly of a Chinese Indonesian politician in Jakarta, who was the governor of Jakarta, who was found guilty for what was it? Religion? He said something about Islam, that didn't directly target it. But because he's non Muslim, they said that that was like treason. Okay, well, and he was put into prison. And he's like, and this Human Rights Watch. Member, so yeah, you remind me so much of him. We're in the same territory. Right? That sounds like Wow, thanks. A man I admire and a man I don't want to like emulate in terms of the consequences he's faced. And
Martin O'Toole 28:23
treason is not on my agenda right now.
Kai Mata 28:25
Preferably not.
Julia Malcolmson 28:26
And he wasn't offering you any help with this. Just he said,
Kai Mata 28:29
keep doing what you do. Keep speaking for minorities, be very careful. Keep making your music, use your music to rally up minorities, and to be honest about that. But know what you're getting into. Because you're in some muddy, muddy waters, and good luck in prison. He was like, You are so emotionally strong. You must be, but you are physically feeble. I was like, Yeah, you're very right.
Martin O'Toole 28:53
Go out. But that leads me back to the to the original question, I think how, what did it What effect did this have on you eventually, because as I said earlier, you would have well, you would have been well within your rights to to have a mini break down off the back of Allah.
Kai Mata 29:09
It's made me take pause first, I stopped what I was doing, I took a look at what I was doing and how it if I was actually making the change I wanted to, and I questioned that. And I realised it didn't make the impact. I want it to when it continuously does. I also realised that I'm in a place where I have a platform, I have a lot of privileges like an accepting family, and the ability to communicate in English. That is something I don't take for granted. And to be able to utilise that as a way to foster the change I want to see and to be the person that I wish existed when I was a young 16 year old in Jakarta. So scared feeling so alone. Like I would have to hide my sexual orientation for the rest of the life and settle Download with a nice Indonesian man and have sex twice, not orgasm and make babies. That that is not the life I wanted to live in. I felt like I had to suffer through that. So I recognise that what I'm doing now is really for the younger version of myself.
Martin O'Toole 30:24
Nice. Appreciate that. But you spent some time in America. Yes. How long were you in America?
Kai Mata 30:30
Around 14 years?
Julia Malcolmson 30:32
How old were you when you baby okay,
Kai Mata 30:35
baby till 14.
Martin O'Toole 30:37
I wondered how living in America for that period of time, perhaps affected your opera hat perhaps providing you with some more courage and bravery. And that that's that concept of a basic free speech.
Kai Mata 30:53
I think that to navigate this topic, we need to navigate America strong identity as an individualistic society. Compared to Indonesia, which is very collectivistic very focused on the family and the thought about community. America taught me in individualism that made me brash enough to be queer here. A lot of people don't come out in Indonesia, not because of the government because of the effects it will have on their family. If their family finds out, it'll be devastating to be kicked out. And not only that, oftentimes, families get ostracised for and shamed for having a gay kid. Like the common ideas that neighbours are gonna think that parents messed up in raising their child, that something bad must have happened to them. It's a defect. It's a flaw, not an inherent part of someone's identity. The USA may have exposed me more to LGBTQ plus couples. I remember in elementary school, one of my classmates, Jessica, she has two moms. And I remember asking her about those like, Do you have a dad? He's like, No, I have two moms was like, Oh, that's cool. Little did I know that I would end up being in a similar position to her mother's. So that may have opened my mind and may have also given my parents away to see a same sex couple and humanise them. But it also led me down a path for a little bit where I thought that Indonesia was backwards in the way that our laws are structured. But it's not because we're backwards or that we're like left in the dark ages. Indonesia's viewpoints on homosexuality? And wanting to criminalise it came from colonisation. It came from the Dutch. Just like what happened in Singapore with your fabulous country?
Martin O'Toole 32:54
I don't really identify as being British anymore, FYI. Okay, I'm sorry. So I've never I've not been back. But yeah, but let's talk about it. Because, you know, they call it Great Britain. And they're essentially just went around invading the whole world and, and pillaging
Julia Malcolmson 33:12
and it's not, it's there's happened in lots of countries, you know, a lot of those countries didn't even have the concept of seeing it differently. They saw it as gender fluidity, and they didn't really label anybody. And I've just mentioned this one in them in the before the Europeans came over to America. So with the Native Americans, they embraced gender fluidity, and they didn't have any binaries. And they often adopted fluid gender roles, and they were called two spirit. And
Martin O'Toole 33:46
somebody who was fluid gender, had a had a really cool name. And that was two spirits. And they
Julia Malcolmson 33:51
were believed to be supremely gifted people. And because they have this knowledge and ability to understand two opposing sides, so they were really revered Reverend in their, in their, in their tribes in their villages. And it wasn't until the Europeans came over, and put a stop to it, and gave them a new name. And, and it's and it's happened in so many countries, it's
Kai Mata 34:13
the same thing. In Indonesia, we have societies like the boogie society, which is it's not as practised anymore, but this is a society that recognises five different genders. And in those five different genders. Oftentimes, the people who are not either man or woman, are considered the leaders of this society. And it really takes pause us to what we believe now and how it's been moulded and shaped in an era that was meant to control a population and view us as second class citizens or not even citizens in the first place.
Martin O'Toole 34:49
What do you think is the main driver that's hat this bearing in mind what Jules was talking about for 1000s of years, the whole world operated with gender fluidity in Moscow. Interesting from what we we understand what, what changed
Kai Mata 35:06
beyond colonisation, yeah, I would say that was a little a seed that was planted. Then again, Indonesia is such a diverse country. And oftentimes, because of such stark inequality that exists on an economic scale especially, it feels a lot easier from a governmental standpoint to point the finger at a more helpless, vulnerable minority. That happened with Chinese Indonesians, which is my ethnic origins. I am Chinese Indonesian. And the reason I speak English like this is because my family couldn't stay in Indonesia. It would have been dangerous for us to do so. My family underwent mandated name changes to attempt to assimilate. Despite the fact that my family has lived in Indonesia for six generations. The first person in my family to gain Indonesian citizenship, even after six generations of being here was my father when he was nine years old. So after what was like the big riots in 1998, where Indonesia realised they couldn't really pick on the Chinese anymore in this country. Things started switching to other minority groups.
Martin O'Toole 36:26
Okay, that's interesting, because I was gonna blame religion. But you know, you make a valid point.
Kai Mata 36:32
We also might be stuck with defamation if we continue on that path.
Martin O'Toole 36:37
I'm more than happy to toe the line on that. But I was brought up a Catholic. And I stopped going to church when I was when I was, I don't know 1112 Something that was an altar boy. I was actually the lead singer in the choir on same. Yeah, but I mean, you've got great voice. But I used to sing that either. So when I added soprano voice, I used to sing the you know, the lead to once in royal David's city now that wonderful Christmas Carol? Remember my mum and dad, were super proud that day. Anyway, I digress. You go to
Julia Malcolmson 37:08
church. Yeah, we were Church of England. But none of us were really we weren't a religious family but wasn't a proper religion. I think once my I think I want I wanted to go. I think I wanted to do something different. On the Sunday my mom was like, Well, you got to choose between going to church or doing that. And I was like it that?
Martin O'Toole 37:25
Well, I my mum, dad would give me sweet if I would, if I had to go to church. It was bribery. It was bribery. It works. If you sit quietly for the whole thing and stand up and kneel down and stand up on the kneel down and you're conditioned like Pavlov's dogs. Absolutely. I mean, that's, that's Catholicism, one on one, unfortunately. But then I get a gops. Ironically, I get a Gobstopper got stuck in the 80s. Like, well, late 70s 80s. These things were like made of concrete, weak. Ironically, if you stay quiet through your whole appearance at church, you can have a Gobstopper you can stay quiet. But anyway, I took that I took that reward with some bizarre sense of gratitude. I was I'm, I've been always been impressed with your activism. Thank you to Word. You make a good activist. I can't say I know many activists, but you are definitely ranking up there as in my list of activists I know.
Kai Mata 38:23
Well, I am the lesbian Indonesian, according to Google,
Martin O'Toole 38:26
partly so yes. Did you? Do you ever see the British TV comedy? Little Britain?
Kai Mata 38:35
No, I have not.
Martin O'Toole 38:36
So there's a famous gay comedian, in his easy Welsh nose and the character was Welsh. And anyway, he played a Welsh character called Daffy kid. And the skit was is the only gay in the village because he was the only girl in the village but as soon as I discovered that you were the only gay in Indonesia i
Kai Mata 38:59
That's a man that
Martin O'Toole 39:02
soon as Google told me I almost opened the show with that but but I was I was conscious of the the conversation I was having you know, it's to be mindful of the the comedic play on on the subject, especially when we want you to have a serious chat with you about it. So. So what we didn't say at the start of this was this is this episode's two firsts isn't it? Yeah, well, three first we've got the wheel and Denise is only gay person on I know
Kai Mata 39:31
let's let's change that. I'm not the only gay person. We have many gay in this room.
Martin O'Toole 39:36
I'm just kidding. We are in the starlight production studio. So thank you to the guys at Starlight productions for having us in parking ouput and this makes it like a real change to
Julia Malcolmson 39:50
be nice. Isn't like sitting on the couch and
Martin O'Toole 39:53
how she got the cameras you got people helping us. You're used to this being a celebrity but To we have our two dogs usually to help us make these podcasts. And that's very helpful. And of course, the third first is that we have a small audience. So hello, everybody. Thank you for tolerating our bumbling through a podcast. We very much appreciate it. Yeah. Because this is still relatively new to us podcasting. So, you know, the whole point of doing the how to die happy podcast. Really was I came across this list of deathbed regrets. There are there are 10 Common deathbed regrets. And they are when you hear of them and then you think of them in the context of how they're delivered. Of course, they're incredibly sad people saying, I wish I'd said I love you more. I wish I'd I wish I'd not borne a grudge. I wish I'd had the courage to live my dreams. And, and it was it was the one around having courage to express my true self. That was why I wanted to get you on the show. Because I think, you know, activist is I don't know, maybe a polarising word. I think you express your truth and you've taken on the truth of an entire community. And you express that and your bravery and courage. Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside my chest chest cavity, which is primarily why we wanted to get you on the show. The other reason why I want to get you on the show is because you can sing oh yes I can. And yes, you can and you are going to do three songs for us today. Yes, I will. So do you fancy breaking the serious chat with a little song?
Kai Mata 41:38
Yeah, let's do a song called pray my gay away
Martin O'Toole 41:42
let's do a song called pray my gay away
Kai Mata 41:49
This is a song I wrote after I was sent a message on Facebook or Instagram actually, that was advertising like a conversion therapy like house and they're like it's not too late to turn away or like turn to God you've you've been led astray on a path we can cure you of your homosexuality come it'll be fun and the advertised like saying that we offer a variety of treatments. You have choice you have electroshock therapy, or like exorcisms or Praying the gay away or even what they call corrective rape moreso which is the idea of like setting someone up with a a a person of the opposite gender in hopes I will enjoy that. I think that would deter me even further away from men. Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 42:42
I think that was very helpful of this person.
Kai Mata 42:44
Exactly. So this is a song that was inspired from his words if you think you can pray away my gay I hate to break it my gay is here to stay it might shock you that conversion therapy, No it all change the way I look at her or how she looks at me with those big eyes staring at me all night, her lips lingering on mine, holding her into the day. so don't tell me that you need to cure me the only gene thats not seen is your claim of collective rainbows .feel the air tonight I've given up this fight ther's a reason we have pride. Cause we know there's nothing wrong with our love, so let me call your bluff if you think that you can pray away my gay, I hate to break it my gay is here to stay, it might shock you that conversion therapy will no it wont change the way I look at her or how she look at me. If it's a choice then I choose love, Gay or bi or genderqueer, we're rising up pray and pray but it won't change a thing about myself that cannot change. take a walk now, the lord has answered all my prayers because I've got a beautiful girl who lays in bed right next to me so if you think that you can pray away my gay, I hate to break it but my gay is here to stay. It my shock, you that conversation therapy no it wont change the way I look at her, or how she looks at me
Julia Malcolmson 45:39
Yeah. Oh, I got little shivers.
Martin O'Toole 45:40
Yeah, that was absolutely yeah. Thank you.
Julia Malcolmson 45:44
Thank you for playing that.
Martin O'Toole 45:45
Yeah, and thanks. So what's the name of the guy who sent you the letter? I think we should pick him up on the podcast,
Kai Mata 45:49
no clue.
Martin O'Toole 45:52
If you are listening or watching, please send us a message. I'd like to interact with you personally. Perhaps we could get you on the show your perspective.
Kai Mata 46:02
That would definitely be rated R wouldn't. Yeah, yeah. Well, I
Martin O'Toole 46:06
Yeah. I mean, I'm working on I'm working on Judgement. In my, in my journey, right. So I, we've all had a journey I've had a couple times. In my healing process. Now I'm at the stage where I'm working on on Judgement. And this is this whole area is something that makes me want to try and work it out and trying to understand why people do the things they do, why people say the things they say why they behave the way they do, and why they hurt people or the people. And obviously, it's easy, easy for me to say. But I said the same about the guy who blinded me, you know, everyone's got a backstory. And and some people have been conditioned to hatred. Some people have been abused heinously as children. But but it's next level for you to write a letter that says, I think we should book you in for a little bit of two o'clock 2pm We got electroshock. We're gonna pray where you go. And you know, we haven't finished at the end and we'll we'll stick you in for some conversion therapy. All you can say is bless them, right? God bless them, I suppose.
Kai Mata 47:20
I mean, from my perspective, there's nothing I can do to change his mind. There's a way I can lessen the pain that other people will feel from hearing a similar message.
Martin O'Toole 47:29
Yeah. By in that, combined with the bright bravery and your wit incidentally your musical wit you've got a wonderful sweet spot there where you can kind of poke them in the eye with love, if that makes sense.
Kai Mata 47:43
It's passive aggressive, isn't aggressive. It's
Julia Malcolmson 47:45
so filled with love like your songs. Really? When I listened to them I just get that buzz in my heart. Like you're talking about that that side of it. And then you always get in there with the love and it just I love it. It makes my heart sing.
Kai Mata 47:57
Thank you Julia.
Martin O'Toole 47:59
Yeah. And and when I first came across you I don't remember review if you have in politis politicised songs so much. Oh, not Yeah, then you didn't Did you? We were getting there. Good morning. Beautiful and sort of.
Kai Mata 48:14
Yeah, I was 19 I was in a different phase of my life. I think I had feathers in my hair. You didn't? Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 48:20
I did. You told me that. Yeah. Oh, but it but it's a journey, isn't it?
Kai Mata 48:26
It is. And now I'm on a journey that feels a lot more authentic and sincere and a message that feels once again like it is rooted in love, like you said Trulia, but isn't sickly sweet isn't toxic positivity. And it is something that actually represents the truth I feel and the world in which I inhabit and see.
Martin O'Toole 48:47
I heard you on another podcast is you said that you had an annual, an annual activist song I think you
Kai Mata 48:54
said yes. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 48:56
Is that still the? Is there a you know, do you put this in the calendar? Right? I shall release my activist song in July or? Or do you just write record whatever you feel like right and recording,
Kai Mata 49:09
I have a backlog of songs. And I'd like to celebrate Pride month with a bang and really make that something to celebrate, especially in Indonesia. It can be very easy to pretend like pride as a party and to forget the roots of the rights we have in other countries like the USA and the UK, came from people's activism, bravery and suffering. And I want to make sure that I highlight that from my perspective and how I can do so within Indonesia in a way that is as safe as possible.
Martin O'Toole 49:44
Yeah. No pick up for that. So how does how is your journey affected the way you write?
Kai Mata 49:55
I have recognised that people listen to my songs. For a painting of the queer experience and in hopes of being able to relate to someone who is like them in the form of their sexual orientation, or maybe within the community on a broader stroke, that doesn't mean I represent them fully. Of course, especially with such a diverse country like Indonesia, where I am a religious, ethnic and sexual orientation minority. I can't be the picture of what Indonesia looks like, and no one really can. But I've recognised in importance to write from a place of sincerity. That's the only way I know that my songs can be sustainable for me in the long run to perform. And for a way that I can stand by next to and say, I'm proud of this, not only for the message that people gain from it, but also as arts on its own.
Martin O'Toole 50:56
Yeah, I suppose that was my question, or part part of my question was, how? Because I think you're a great singer, you're a great songwriter. And obviously, for the for all the right reasons you chose this route, this activism route and and you sing these kinds of songs, but at the same time, do you is there a is there a part of you that the wishes you didn't have to do that, and you could just just get on with writing love songs,
Kai Mata 51:22
I do do that. And they're still called queer songs, because they're about queer love. It's about like kissing a woman or, you know, wanting to go to prom with a woman, which is an experience I never got to have, because I was still in the closet or afraid. And from that aspect, I don't write it with a queer agenda, or a gay agenda, I write it with the purpose of describing my life was a love song. And half the times when I write, it's about the love I have. And that love, apparently is with a woman hypothetically. Yeah. So I have to recognise that I can't really separate my music from my sexual orientation.
Martin O'Toole 52:03
No, no, no, I certainly wouldn't ask you to who said Who calls them queer songs? Ah,
Kai Mata 52:10
that's what they're like. heralded as Yes. Just
Martin O'Toole 52:12
a thing. Yeah. It's, again, obviously, I'm coming at it from a different perspective, I just hear a love song. So you know, for me, you're singing about about a life experience and about love. And it's and you write incredibly well, so and you tell great stories. Yeah.
Julia Malcolmson 52:26
But I suppose unfortunately, until there is complete equality, and everything's just about love in this world, which unfortunate it's not yet, then there always will be that little bit of it being activism, because you're getting a message through living and writing about your life
Kai Mata 52:42
in a message that, unfortunately, is still viewed controversial or something that should be silenced or hidden in the shadows.
Martin O'Toole 52:50
Most of the pity, so you've two albums on the belt.
Kai Mata 52:53
I have one album and three singles.
Martin O'Toole 52:57
I thought you did a second album I have when
Kai Mata 52:59
I'm sitting on. Oh, right. Yeah, it's not released yet.
Martin O'Toole 53:03
That explains a lot. So can you tell us about that? Or is it? Is it finished? Or is it
Kai Mata 53:08
we are editing it too. I would say that through the era of the last two years, and having a lot more time to focus on my songwriting, I've taken a turn to reevaluate how I write, and how to make sure that this music that I'm writing is a representation of me, as I am now and the truth I experience. And in that I've taken a look at some of the songs that I don't feel represent that anymore. And works these two years to hone in on the sound I want to create the textures, I want to paint and the landscape. I want to showcase the world through music.
Martin O'Toole 53:43
I suppose that's a constant challenge as a songwriter, especially. Because once it's recorded, and it's on Spotify, or can't make any edits. That's it. It's out there in the world, isn't it? Yeah. And it's, you know, I know, this is a writer, myself writing about my eyesight to write a book. Actually, when I met you, I was writing it. Yeah, well, so here's the thing, I actually stopped writing it because I realised that it was a life story kind of thing. And I realised, shit was just getting interesting. So and I realised that there were lots more chapters to it, which would actually be a lot more positive than the stuff that I was spewing out. And it became this kind of emotional process of purging if you like, but, but I'm glad I didn't publish that. And I wonder, how do you how do you gauge that? So when you're writing you think okay, that's, that's me right now. This is all a snapshot because songs are and poems are and books are and screenplays I suppose. It's all a snapshot of where we're at on the journey. But then how do you what's your process in letting that go letting that finally releasing it or throwing it in the bin?
Kai Mata 54:53
I think I have to be 100% sure that I feel like this is who I am now. Firstly, foremost, and does this story authentically paint the experience of what has happened and what I wants to portray. And then I release it. And then I recognise that once I release a song, it's not mine anymore, because people are going to listen to it. And they're going to interpret it in their own ways. It doesn't become mine anymore. And it's a story that then gets taken by someone else brought into their heart, hopefully, and made to be their own, in the message they hear what it evokes from them. And what it then hopefully makes them create
Martin O'Toole 55:35
is a wonderful perspective,
Julia Malcolmson 55:36
how does it feel when you let a song go?
Kai Mata 55:38
Oh, I mean, I just released a song like last week, and I will tell you, it is a hoot and a half, it's full of anxiety, seeing if Spotify is gonna pick it up on playlists, and from a standpoint of that, and having to like Mark it myself, because as an independent musician, I am my whole team, I have to create the content and push forward. And I'm happy to be an independent musician, and really grateful that I have such a loyal, strong audience. Even though it's a limited number. My engagement is so strong, and the community I've fostered, stands by me. So it is fulfilling to see them show support, and listen to the music and be impacted. And it's also scary to recognise that I'm letting go of a project that was once mine into the world for people to take on as their own.
Martin O'Toole 56:33
Yeah, that is a wonderful perspective, the idea that you let it fly. And whilst it may or may not be timeless, it certainly won't be timeless for you. It will impact people and and resonate with them, and where they are and their journey, and then hopefully continue to do so. Right. Yeah. Years and years. I should have finished that book. Enough time. I started another one so many. Yeah. Which is kind of, well, funnily enough, it's about the topics that we're covering in the podcast in a way. So yeah, well, I was going to ask you about your third album, but I can't because you haven't finished your second because this is the the idea of the music, folk law concept of the third album, The tricky third album,
Kai Mata 57:20
oh, to see if you can sustain success or you drop? Well, yeah, that
Martin O'Toole 57:25
and I think also, I think artists after the after the first two albums have sort of created a sound right, and they've created an audience. And so then people know what to expect. But then there's a huge amount of pressure around what they're going to do next, you know, will they pivots, should they pivot? Perhaps they should represses. The second album was the was all I want to hear from that, from that aspect of the music. So what's coming next? Does any of that bother you as a songwriter?
Kai Mata 57:56
I think nowadays, as musicians who released music, there's less focus on a whole album, in more structure on a single it's kind of like how we consume video content that's now 15 seconds or less. Yeah, thank you tick tock.
Martin O'Toole 58:09
Welcome to the time and attention poor world,
Kai Mata 58:12
right. And that influences how musicians create music and how people release music. Now, there is something called the waterfall strategy, which is like one single a month, until you do 12. And that's a whole album
Martin O'Toole 58:24
for that. But then that changes the whole way. Musicians would originally write an album because musicians would create an album, like a writer, or a screenwriter would create a player a book, almost like a 383 act structure, right? Storytelling, do you still do that? Ah, even if you're waterfowling,
Kai Mata 58:42
there's a lot of callbacks in my music to lyrics of a of songs that are released or written in the same timeframe. That is something that I feel like, creates a web that connects them, but not necessarily needs to be released in a certain order. I think when coming up with an album, there needs to be a strong intention as to why this is a piece as a whole, a journey that one has to go through that does maybe have a rising action and a climax and a resolution, or something to string them all along. That is very cohesive. I know we used to we are so used to an era of albums. But do you also remember that how, like, before we would buy a whole CD or vinyl, and there are only one or two songs we actually care to listen to and everything else was filler?
Martin O'Toole 59:30
Yeah, well, I Well, no, I was I was Yeah, I know what you're saying. But I was I'm old. So I wouldn't if I bought an album. It was an investment. You know, it was like,
Julia Malcolmson 59:38
so excited to get home. And listen to the whole album
Martin O'Toole 59:42
the same like week's book, we did our singles of course, which you could buy or an LP because they were called with the with vinyl, but you could buy a CD single which had the single and besides which we usually variations of the same single actually. But I don't know maybe I'm being an old Romantic but I, for me, an album is an odyssey, you know, it's an if, if curated in, in or created and curated in the right way it is a journey that you want to go on in musical terms, isn't it? It is.
Kai Mata 1:00:15
I think that there is definitely merit and a strong art form and creating an album. I also think it's a lot more unreasonable for most independent musicians to sustain that now, for sure.
Martin O'Toole 1:00:26
Yeah. And in that regard, everything is impermanent. You gotta you gotta move with a change. Yeah, that's fair enough. Well, we yeah, I'd like to hear another song. Yeah, it's up to
Kai Mata 1:00:38
the song is from my first album called lifelines. It is a song I wrote in celebration of my stand in grandparents that I had in the USA they were my best friend's grandparents actually because I didn't live with my grandparents they were still in Indonesia and they were always with me picking me up from school driving me around because we lived very close by to each other they were always together in the car sitting so contently in silence with one another and they were like that until they're passing where they passed within a few days of each other and I thought that was really beautiful to see their connection lasts through decades in a way where when one let go of life the other did too. This is lifelines. The sky falls and the trees blows and the dark clouds, where will you be when the life fades and the seas rise in the moon rays from the cold night Come be with me Come be with me we'll be crossing lifeline past all the darkness you'll be the sunshine and i'll be the moonlight seeking your glow I will be with you I will be with you in the eyes closed, bright lights, on the face glows in the soul fly. Let me fly with you. Let me fly with you. And the breath let me be with you with you maybe be crossing the lifelines past all the darkness You will be the sunshine and i'll be the moonlight be the seeking your glow . I will be with you I will be with you crossing life lines crossing crossing life lines with you when the tides turn and the sky falls and the trees blow and the dark clouds Come be with me. Come be with me
Martin O'Toole 1:05:00
Wow. That's a beautiful song. Thank you. Remember that you enjoy that? I did? Yeah. So your grandparents passed within a few days of each other?
Kai Mata 1:05:16
Oh, my like surrogate grandparents. Right now I still have one. One, both of my grandmother's. And yeah,
Martin O'Toole 1:05:27
that's beautiful story. I've heard. I've heard of that before with couples who were so intrinsically connected and devoted to one another. When one goes, the other one literally dies of a broken heart. Or just, lets go. I suppose they died happy?
Kai Mata 1:05:44
I think so. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:46
Beautiful. Well, we have, as you know, on the show, we have a segment called Be my guest. Now, ordinarily on Be my guest, we invite audience members to record a question that then gets sent to us. And we usually play that on the show. But since we've got an audience here today, and I don't know if anybody even knew this was going to happen, I thought we might open up the room to this audience to see if they want you to be their guest for one or two questions. So we have a microphone somewhere. And some music. Do you mind? Let's talk. Let's. Be my guest. So has anybody got a question for Kai? Over there? My question is,
1:06:52
what do you think like is the biggest challenge that the LGBTQ plus community faces like internally, like conflicts, I guess, within the community, but between different people? And kind of? Yeah, challenges like that?
Kai Mata 1:07:05
Good question. I would say internally, we still have a hard time with intersectionality, with recognising that people can be LGBT, as well as parts of other minority groups and read perspective that such as people of colour, I think that's a big issue we still face today is the racism within the LGBTQ plus community transphobia and biphobia, the idea that we are still rooted in idea that someone is either fully gay or fully straight, and that there is nothing in between. I would also say, a big thing that stops us is is divisiveness within our groups and not recognising that we have a very common mission as a whole queer community.
Martin O'Toole 1:07:57
Thanks for that question.
1:07:58
So we as Indonesian, we don't feel safe sometimes in our country. And there is this feeling of wanting to run away Actually, many of Indonesian, LGBT, Indonesian, they run away to another country, they are safe. Do you ever feel like you want to go back to USA. And if you don't, why, and if you do What stopped you?
Kai Mata 1:08:21
I don't want to leave Indonesia. I want to stay here as long as I possibly can. And that is something that I've held firm on. Because the reason I speak English this way was not my choice. And it wasn't the choice of my parents either. It was a decision out of necessity because of discrimination. I do not want my rights as an Indonesian to be stripped away once again, to further push me out of this country. Because I'm a strong believer in our nation's model of unity in diversity. That is such a beautiful thing to hold with such a diverse country we have I wants to see that be brought to actual life. I don't want that to just be a model that is said and not practised. So that keeps me here in Indonesia. I understand wholeheartedly. The people that want to leave, they want to be free. They want to be safe. They want to have the love that they deserve to have. And I don't think that it's wrong for people to leave. For me, though, I choose to stay because it's a choice I have. And I don't want that choice to be stripped away from me or for me to act against my own wants of being seen as an Indonesian and being respected in this country for all parts of my identity.
Speaker 6 1:09:50
That's very inspiring. Thank you.
Martin O'Toole 1:09:52
Have you got any more questions?
1:09:57
Let's say that you do die happy, what does the world around you look like when that happens?
Kai Mata 1:10:06
I think I think in order to die happy, I have to take away any expectations of what the world around me looks like, and recognise what the internal world world I've built, looks and feels like, if I depend all of my heart, if all of my happiness is dependent on what the world looks like, I'm not in control of what makes me happy then. So I would rephrase that question. And say, What would my internal world look like in order to die happy? And it would be one where I feel like I've spoken my truth that I've lived in my truth. And I've inspired people around me to do the same.
Julia Malcolmson 1:10:58
Nice, very powerful answer. Thank you.
Martin O'Toole 1:11:01
You can applaud, I'd be like Yeah. Well, we can stop the podcast. Now, I suppose you don't need to make any more episodes you've just summed it up is something we, it's something we talk about all the time, obviously, on the podcast, the whole point of what we're trying to do is to just to get people to stop and have that that, that thought for a moment, you've got five minutes left to live? What's on your list of regrets? And, you know, and I think I might have done this before on the podcast. But if I haven't, then you know, you're listening at home, press pause, get a piece of paper, get a pen, and write down your top 10 Regrets right now, be honest with yourselves as well. Because one of the regrets is that, I wish I'd been more honest with myself. And joking, but there is something about authenticity. And so this whole idea of connection comes up on a regular basis, on the show that this this idea of segregation comes up on the show, you know, we live in a realm of separation, we live in a dimension of duality. And it seems to be the human way that we, that we enjoy separation. And I quite clearly where we've got to now is is a place where a community or let's say more than one community within our community have had to band together, I suppose is that safe to say under the rainbow flag for using the metaphor to protect themselves against other communities and their bigotry? Or their lack of understanding? Has interested in in what you what do you think is the way forward for this because from where I'm sitting, and granted, I'm sitting, I'm sitting in a completely different seat than a lot of other people. I can't come at all of this with a from a place of love. And no judgement. And and I don't see identity the way a lot of other people see. But then I'm, you know, I'm an ageing hippie, and I'm interested in unity consciousness and the concept of community. But do you think there's a danger in the LGBT and it's got two new acronyms AE QA? Yeah. Plus, do you think it's a danger in, in further separation through through through these identity politics?
Kai Mata 1:13:35
No. I think that they give more language and ability for people to customise what their sexual orientation or their gender expression looks like to them. We have hundreds of different nationalities that we take the time to learn. Actually, mostly Europe, and then we consider Africa one main country.
Martin O'Toole 1:13:55
Well, yeah, some of us do. Yeah.
Kai Mata 1:13:57
But it's the idea that we have more tools for expression. And I'll be honest, there are terms I've not heard before. And I think that's beautiful. And I ask each individual, what does that mean to you? How would you define that for yourself? I think these are tools in which can allow people to find even more niche communities that describe them, and that they can relate to, but also for them to wear as a way to celebrate and claim as a part of who they are.
Julia Malcolmson 1:14:29
And it also helps people find other people that they can connect with on a deeper level because they feel seen and understood. Yeah, because they know that they're not the only person trying to, to find the words to describe something and that language is helping people to do that. Of course,
Kai Mata 1:14:44
I think we need more language not less, even if it becomes more niche and niche that gives us more tools to explain things. It's a very wide spectrum and I don't expect everyone to know all the terms because they're evolving like language does. The thing is that We got to accept that language evolves, and that people develop terminology for themselves.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:07
No, that's fair enough. I like the way you answer that. I'm, I'm constantly I'm coming at it from a different place because I'm I just want oneness. You know, that's, it's a very big ask. But I'd like oneness.
Kai Mata 1:15:25
And I agree with that. And I would then bring back to Indonesia's motto that in order to be united, we have to celebrate the diversity.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:34
Well, before we let you sing us off with a third song, I just like to say thank you a million for for coming on the show. I've been hanging out to do this. And I had this idea that we were going to, you know, be in the studio and you were going to be singing there's going to be an audience and we're going to be people doing stuff and I actually happened forgetting it. there because I think people thought it was a crazy idea, especially for a podcast because, you know, I don't know that. The lines blurring between podcasts and television all of a sudden in this context, but I hope you've enjoyed yourself.
Kai Mata 1:16:08
I definitely have. It's been nice to catch up with you, Martin. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:16:11
Even though we had to have a lot of people watching.
Kai Mata 1:16:13
Of course, you know, exhibitionism
Martin O'Toole 1:16:16
yeah well I enjoyed it in that regard. So yeah, before we before I have you singers off just quick reminder if you want to find out more about chi you're going to our website how to die happy podcast.com forward slash on dash the dash show and there'll be a link to something will work out what is fabulous, something fabulous created by this fabulous being and if you are enjoying the show just remotely please do us a favour and consider writing a review or rating us because you know we kind of need that stuff to work with these algorithms. So if you like it please rate it if you don't like it don't worry about writing it or reviewing it just skip it onto the next podcast we've got five stars at the moment and we're happy with that
Kai Mata 1:17:00
Yes.
Martin O'Toole 1:17:02
And we will play your video and your new single to sing it to see us off
Kai Mata 1:17:09
awesome thank you very much Thank you Martin Thank you Julia
Julia Malcolmson 1:17:13
it's been so inspiring Thank you
Kai Mata 1:17:25
