SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, ayahuasca, psilocybin, ceremony, fear, medicine, experience, keith, journey, programme, peru, substances, talking, psychotherapist, trauma, life, drugs, podcast, plant, realised
SPEAKERS
Keith Hagenbach, Martin O'Toole, Julia Malcolmson
Julia Malcolmson 00:19
Key Keith, why did you wait until your 70s to sit with Ayahuasca?
Keith Hagenbach 00:27
Wow, that's good question. Let me just answer that by telling you what would actually happen, which is my son Max, who actually at this very moment is in Peru at the centre of that I went to, he had been for the first time. And he came back, flew back. And I picked him up from Heathrow. And I can still remember it. This was about three years ago, what am I now suddenly seven? So I was Yes, about three years ago. And we were driving back. And I looked across to him. And I said, How was it? And he turned to me and his eyes were just wonderfully bright. And his energy was quite extraordinary was very, very clear. And he's an amazing being anyway, but he was he was obviously in a in a in a fantastic place. And he simply looked at me, and he said, you have to do it. And he didn't tell me anything else. He just said, you have to do it. And I knew in that moment that he had connected with something in me, that was a sort of a deep knowing. And he tunes into me pretty well. Which sometimes is good sometimes sometimes is, is less less useful for me. And so I decided to do it at that moment. So if you like it wasn't so much a rational process of you know, deciding to do it. It was at that moment in my life, that it was presented to me as a kind of this, I was going to apologise for how it may sound but I went to that it was a sort of cosmic imperative. Does that does that at all answer your question?
Julia Malcolmson 02:23
Yeah, completely. I mean, I always believe that it's a medicine that comes to us when we're ready for it. So yeah, so I completely agree with everything that you just said. That's what happened to me as well, you know, just appeared when I was when I was ready for it and when I needed it.
Martin O'Toole 02:40
Yeah, and you certainly you certainly no need to apologise for utilising words like cosmic cosmic and imperative, separately or together? Is that survive on the how to die? Happy podcast? Yeah. And I would, I would echo what Jules says, I think the medicine presents itself when you're ready. Naturally, if we live in England, for example, which is where you are, right? You have to be more open to the idea than perhaps of you travelling around the world, like, like we do a little bit more of that. Beautiful. So, so that's how you discovered it. What happened next?
Keith Hagenbach 03:19
I I flew out to Peru. And I went to the centre, where my first interesting part of the experience was that the I couldn't understand a word that the shaman said and that was because he was from North Shields. And
Martin O'Toole 03:47
North Shields as in not, he wasn't speaking Spanish.
Keith Hagenbach 03:52
Now he David David is certainly not Spanish. From North shield
Martin O'Toole 03:56
now. Okay. Well, so for for our listeners, because we have a we're very fortunate to have an international listening base here. Actually a good chunk of which are in the US, right? Yeah. So could you just explain why North Shields is
Keith Hagenbach 04:12
okay, North Shields is in the northeast coast of England. It's it's either part of a close to a city called Newcastle. And it's a wonderful part of the country, but the or not but and the accent is a very strong one, even for an English person, the the, the accent there can be quite impenetrable. So I it took time for me to under understand what, what, what David was saying. But fortunately, I have an ear for accents. So I managed to get through it. But he was a lovely man who is probably David must be in his, I would think late 30s, early 40s, who had done many The years training as a shaman and runs the most beautiful, very simple, but beautiful centre whether I he runs I was because harmonists. And I was also very blessed that I was the only person that I mean, as as it happened, people come and go, and sometimes there are groups of people, but I am somewhat reclusive by nature. So, to find that it was just myself with David and a couple of people who, whom he was training as to do shamanic work, I found that particularly comfortable, and I found it very holding a very safe. So I felt that the universe had provided Exactly, exactly the conditions that I needed to get the most from it.
Martin O'Toole 05:55
You were very lucky in that regard. Because across a lot of people, not necessarily just doing their first ceremony, but doing any ceremony will find that they're sharing the space with anything from half a dozen to even 1015 20 plus people I know in was this in the I don't know the particular centre you're referring to? Is it in the Sacred Valley in Peru?
Keith Hagenbach 06:19
Not not having studied the maps? Martin? I can't answer that one. It's about about 45 minutes bone shaking ride in a little tooktook from the centre of Iquitos.
Martin O'Toole 06:34
Ah, okay. Right. Not then. Yeah, of course. So the Sacred Valley is near to Cusco. Okay, well, yes. Nevertheless, I know there are centres that pack them in sometimes, and you've got quite a large number of people. And then the way they manage it is they have a number of Charmin and other people assisting to hold space around the whole circle. So but it was just you and presumably a couple of trainee, Charmin then who had this wasn't this wasn't their first rodeo.
Keith Hagenbach 07:05
That's right. It was. I have since then, I actually attended, certainly in the UK, and the world, other people, and I must say, I'm sure it's very different for everybody. But for me, it is more comfortable, more rewarding to have that experience. without distractions, and you can perfectly reasonably say, okay, you know, do you allow yourself to be distracted by what's going on around you're down to, and I guess I'm quite sensitive to what is going on around me. So too, for me to have those experiences in Peru sort of going so low that that made it particularly comfortable. I mean, the environment was was perfect for me. And for other people, it may be very different.
Martin O'Toole 08:05
Well, as you say, everyone's journey is different, isn't it?
Julia Malcolmson 08:10
Yeah, very different. And I think that sounds wonderful. Having such an intimate ceremony. I think when I did my first ceremony, I was very fortunate because it was just down the road from where I lived, I didn't really have to travel anywhere. And I knew a lot of the people in the ceremony. So there wasn't too many different energies around. But then this, I think it was my third one, there was a lot of energy to deal with. And I actually found it quite interfering in my journey. But yeah, I think obviously, sometimes that can be down to yourself, not being able to manage the energies, but also when you're in a ceremony like that. You don't really want to be managing energies, you want to just be diving deep in and, and allowing the medicine to take you on the journey. So yeah, to do a ceremony with a shaman and some trainees. Wow.
Martin O'Toole 08:59
So has David trained with the Shipibo. Then was was Was he following the Shipibo ceremonial style and utilising Icaros and that's that kind of thing, or is he as he developed his own style?
Keith Hagenbach 09:14
I'm afraid I can't answer that question. I didn't I didn't inquire as far as that was concerned. I really went March and on the this the quality of my experience so I've stayed there for 11 days I think and we had four ceremonies which were quite different in in nature the first one was very different from the from the followed ones but I just found it such an amazing and I'm going to use life changing. And I mean that that is I don't I don't use those words lightly. But it was such a powerful experience that in a way If whatever David's background was, what his training was, I mean, he did tell me a bit about it. But I went, I relied much more on my connection with him. And I felt from the very beginning, I trusted him, which I think is very important in that in that kind of environment, you need to be in a safe space, and a place where you can absolutely trust the shaman. And I've instinctively, very quickly felt trust in Him, but also in referring back to that moment with my son in the car, the fact that he trusted the the that environment so completely, and he was committing me to it in a way by recommending Tywin right from the very beginning I had I had no qualms no fears, no reservations about it, it was very much about trusting the process. And the universe had brought me that process at that time. And I mean, because it came to me sort of late in life, it's simply Dima extremely slow learner. A bear a very little brain. So take takes time for me to be ready for these things, you younger people. I mean,
Martin O'Toole 11:13
I don't know. I'm not I'm not convinced I can be classed as a young person anymore. And just for the record, I'm also a terribly slow learner. I was 46 in November, and actually my first Ayahuasca journey was nearly three years ago, now three years ago would have been three years ago. first of many as it transpired. And I similarly to you, after the first journey was stunned. And certainly to say life changing from my perspective, anyway, anyway, would be an understatement. That journey and all the journeys ever since have completely transformed my perspective on life. Love, the universe, humanity, our place in the stars, the concept of dimensions, as opposed to just discussing interstellar pneus, if that was a word, and yeah, Wales's and and the, I'm very keen and I'm gonna ask you about this in a moment, but I'm always very keen when I talk about Ayahuasca. People often say to me, especially people who know my story because I was an addict. I was a an alcoholic and cocaine addict for many years. And when I've been clean and sober, actually I'm coming out about it'll be four years in a week I think, which is great. But when I tell people that story quite often and this is you know, it's it's it's ignorance, but not in an unpleasant or in an unpleasant way. It's just natural ignorance through through not understanding this stuff, but a lot of people will say to me, wait, you you were an addict, you quit you sober but you advocate doing drugs, and I'm very keen to, to sing from the rooftops. Whenever anyone asks me about Ayahuasca and other DMT medicines to refer to them not as drugs, they are medicines, they're plant medicines. And for me, the use of Ayahuasca combined with a self subscribed selection of alternative healing modalities, such as yoga breathwork, sound healing, acupuncture, bodywork, you name it. I think I think I Alaska was the right at the forefront of my healing journey. And, and I'm not the only person to, to say that when it comes to using Ayahuasca to treat lots of mental illnesses, including addiction. So for our audience, would you mind just telling us a little bit about what you've been doing for a career prior to you know, although you know, David, by the way, if you don't mind me asking,
Keith Hagenbach 14:09
I'm 77.
Martin O'Toole 14:11
So are you are you retired? Are you still you still doing your thing?
Keith Hagenbach 14:15
No, I'm still still working I, as a psychotherapist have been for 20 odd years, just to just to sort of go back little bearing in mind what you just said about your own history. I lived in a Betta for 10 years. So that was from the age of about what was something like 2829 to 3839, something like that. And so I was in a culture where there was a quite a lot of drug use. And that was what I'll call recreational there was certainly To my knowledge, no. And this is going back to the 80s, of course, but there was no therapeutic intent. No. And since I knew absolutely nothing about therapy, I probably wouldn't have recognised it even if there had been but but it was I, I'm pretty sure that it was simply for the experience. And I guess in that time, I tried all sorts of things. And and I enjoyed them. I mean, the experience was fun, and always positive. But never, it never affected me very deeply, I never felt that I wanted to, if I've tried something, and if somebody had said to me, Well, you, you, you will never have it again, that would never have upset me. And so it was enjoyable, but it was not particularly rewarding, there was no great depth to the experience, I would say, possible possible exception of of of LSD, which was, which was pretty powerful. But it, I treated it treated all those experiences fairly lightly. I never saw any great significance in them. And it wasn't until I went to Peru that I realised it. And it was very powerful realisation that there was a huge, huge potential for using certainly Ayahuasca and since then I had realised that psilocybin also has huge potential, I'm sure there are others, but certainly those two, in my experience, a huge potential to be used in conjunction with conventional therapy. And to help people make progress in, you know, along this sort of therapeutic journey, which is far, far more rapid than can can be achieved by talking talking therapy alone.
Julia Malcolmson 17:16
Yeah, a lot of my friends have said, when they've come out of a ceremony that then it was a bit like doing 20 therapy sessions, and one night, you know, and they've just seen it all. They work through so much stuff. And, yeah, they've saved them in save time. It's not about saving time, but they've managed to really get themselves to a point a lot faster than they would have done with the conventional, you know, going and having a chat every week,
Keith Hagenbach 17:42
I think it's, I would say that the young that the generation, which which you represent, is also, my sense of that is that there is a higher level of consciousness on the planet right now. So what worked for people of my generation was fine and going at some particular pace. But there is now it's as though there is a, again, a kind of imperative because of the higher level of consciousness on the planet, that we find different ways of working. And I believe fervently that that the the responsible and ethical use of plants to be a part of that healing process, now is now is the time that my generation wasn't ready for it.
Martin O'Toole 18:36
Yeah, although I was I suppose you could you. You're not old enough to have been hammering LSD and DMT. And psilocybin in the 60s, are you? Well,
Keith Hagenbach 18:46
I was. I was in my teens and in the 60s, so I guess I was old enough, but nobody, nobody gave me the chance.
Martin O'Toole 18:54
Wasn't on your radar wasted? I often say. I often think about all of the decades I could have been I could have spent as a psycho not. And sadly, it's only been three years. But yeah, because I was gonna ask you about that. Obviously. You've mentioned psilocybin and we've talked about the 60s. There's a really great documentary on Netflix documentary called Fantastic funghi. I don't know if you've come across it. But if you haven't recommended Yeah, and anyone watching and listening or listening hasn't please do check it out. It's well worth it talks about the mycelial network, obviously, an intelligence of these plants, but then it rolls nicely into the psilocybin story, and how, in the 60s, everyone was experimenting with LSD with psilocybin. I'm pretty sure the Beatles went off and did Ayahuasca and I know obviously, a number of other people were Terence McKenna and his brother, and buddies. Were all getting involved with DMT and Ayahuasca But then what happened was I Well, it depends who you believe, doesn't it? The narrative that we are led to believe is that the people were using it irresponsibly losing control, and a stop had to be put to it. But then you listen, you hear other people's perspective. And of course, the debate is that consciousness was being expanded by these groups, of course, because utilising these plants and, and the other spiritual practices that that you tend to find yourself embracing as a result of working with these medicines, means that you are more free, you feel more free, you feel, I don't know, how do I put this, you see the matrix system that we all exist in for what it is. And I suspect a great many people see the futility of it. Anyway, I'm rambling, but I suppose the point is, in the 60s, a lot of people freed their minds, and began to rebel against the system and against authority and against a lot of these matrix like structures construct social constructs that have been created. Did you experience any of that?
Keith Hagenbach 21:14
No, I think my picture of it Martin is been largely formed by I've done a lot of research since I came back from Peru, I've watched a lot of documentaries. i And you know, also some Docu dramas relating to the the whole Ayahuasca experience, and plant healing generally. And I've the book, which has helped to inform me most, I think, as Michael Pollan's book, I think it's how to change your mind. And the picture which he draws, which makes total sense to me is that the authorities in in, in the States, it was towards the end of the Vietnam War. And, you know, a lot of young people were using LSD, and they were, as a result, they were becoming more independently minded, and part of that independence was not seeing why they should be sent off to fight our pointless and bloody war in in, in Vietnam. And I and the authorities took, took fright. And there's a great clip of Nixon's which comes up in lots of documentaries, where he says the the number one enemy, in that American needs to be fighting at this time, I went to inflict my Nixon accent is the use of drugs. And so he, he, he focused, a lot of fear, I think there is huge fear around I mean, the, you know, the word drugs, nobody used the words, drugs for prescription medicines, and yet they they are potentially, you know, drugs, extremely dangerous and highly addictive, absolutely worked with, with people addicted to that. So the word drugs itself is it's a sort of derogatory term. And, and remains so. And so the the, a lot of the attention and energy of the of the authorities at the time spent in the states were to contract the drug culture, and, and they brought huge, huge forces to it. And of course, as a result, a lot of the legitimate research which was being done on the therapeutic effects of LSD, a lot of that was halted, and it's been very difficult to, to pick it up again. And that to some extent, to some extent, still obtains as far as the states are concerned. And of course, the UK.
Martin O'Toole 24:04
Yeah. Well, the UK followed swiftly, didn't it? And and you put that very eloquently, I suspect it was very much more to do with the fact that people suddenly felt free and were a lot more difficult to control. And, of course, that terrifying for the governmental structure that we have the world the world over. So as a psychotherapist, how you were presumably Were you familiar or were you aware at all that the likes of Johns Hopkins, we're doing this research with psilocybin and ketamine and MDMA and and DMT or is this only come onto your agenda onto your radar recently?
Keith Hagenbach 24:53
I wasn't following the development of plant plant, the use of plant medicine, all the research that was being done. But I was indirectly aware to some extent because, again, this is not the therapeutic connection. But both my sons are connected to the music world. Max, my oldest son, whom I've mentioned, is an event organiser. So he runs music, music events and other kinds of events, but with an accent on music. And he has his own event, which I actually attended this year, which is kind of fun, because I walked in and doubled the average age of the participants at the time. And it was just wonderful, you know, these wonderful young people suddenly saw a dinosaur walking around, and they weren't, they were so lovely. Anyway, that's another story I could emerge I could got gone about. So So Max was, and in the music world, in the events world, there is a great deal of recreational substance use. And my other son, Sandy is a, again, another extraordinary being who has both an online fashion business, but also he is a DJ who works internationally. So he's done, you know, works all over Europe, he's done tours, done a tour of Australia, and another one coming up. And so, he is very successful in the music business. So he has an intimate connection, again to that world. And I knew from talking to them, that there was a good deal of the use of substances, but not particularly in the the therapeutic sense. So I was aware of the how how widely substances are used. And it was a small step, once Max had opened my eyes to the fact that there was that there could be a therapeutic content, then, immediately, I could see, you know, the connection to my own world as a therapist, and the possibility of, you know, integrating the use of plants of the traditional healing and shamanic healing methods into that world. And that was that was a real eye opener.
Martin O'Toole 27:44
Well, I can imagine it was especially after many, many, many years as a traditional psychotherapist. Yeah. But you are not alone, which is the the really positive side of this I'm, yeah, I, I've been an outspoken ambassador for the use of plant medicine ever since I discovered it. Because of all the reasons I've just mentioned. It was it was utterly transformative for me, and continues to be so in fact, we, hopefully, will be returning to Peru and Brazil, towards the end of the year. All being well, it will be to produce a documentary on this very subject, but can't really talk about that at this stage, because it's highly speculative. Needless to say, it'll be heroic, if we managed to pull it off. Have you heard of Gabor Marte
Keith Hagenbach 28:37
Oh, yes, I'm a huge admirer of his.
Martin O'Toole 28:39
Well, he, I think it's safe to say it has been a trailblazer in in this space. And we've talked about him on the show before. But for anyone new to the show. Gabor. Matta is a Vancouver based Hungarian psychotherapist, who specialises in addiction therapy. And well, I mean, I think he's the is the very definition of compassion, at least from what I can see. And I've read much of his work and watched many of the things that he's been involved with, including documentaries. But of course, he deals with addiction in a different way he approaches it from as a trauma informed therapist. And so we have a gecko in the ceiling here. Welcome to Valley quite loud, so he's a trauma informed therapy and that therapist and he does an awful lot of work with plant medicines and he does he does actually do regular retreats in the Sacred Valley in Peru to do the to do the same thing to treat people with well with addiction because of course he sees you sees addiction the way hopefully more psychotherapist and mental health professionals We're seeing addiction these days. And that is as a symptom of something else. And pharmaceuticals and, you know, perhaps five years 10 years of speech therapy might not get to the bottom of the other root cause of those trauma. And of course, you'll know firsthand, although I'd like to think you, you have some quicker wins than 10 years. But but it is a common expression to say that an Ayahuasca journey one Ayahuasca journey, is like 10 years of therapy. And certainly from my perspective, it was, I'd had, I don't know, maybe three years of therapy, something like that in total. And that it absolutely top that and more because of what the medicine did for me, in that experience, essentially, representing moments from my life. Trauma, if you like, not always trauma for me, either situations where I'd mistreated other people, and it represented the the event in an entirely new way. So I wasn't just seeing my perspective anymore. I saw and felt the other person's perspective. Not only that, if there was a dog nearby, it appeared that I was also picking up any other perspective of any person, or any living entity, the universe, let's just say, so I wasn't getting a 360 degree perspective. It was more like a 4k perspective of my behaviour of the event of their behaviour, and so on and so forth. And I can't really explain it. But through that process, I was able to see the event for what it was, forgive myself. Forgive them. If it was a if it was a situation where I had been wronged by this person, and just put it away. Just let it go. No, no, put it away. That's a good point. It wasn't about putting it back. It was about letting it go. So it was astounding, from my perspective. So yeah, so Gabor Matta is leading the way, isn't it? And so I wondered, how, how are you integrating this into the way you interact now with with your patients or clients? Do you call them patients or clients?
Keith Hagenbach 32:23
Clients? Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 32:25
Patients Is a bit of a formal, formal way to refer to people. Yeah, anyway, apologies.
Keith Hagenbach 32:31
There's something really scary about introducing plants or something which is going to put all psychotherapists at business pretty quickly. I mean, I guess I should be, I should be a huge opponent of anything like these substances that young people are using on solving all their problems. So they should be coming and talking to me, so don't pay my mortgage.
Martin O'Toole 32:55
You make a good point, you can you can edit
Keith Hagenbach 32:56
that out by though. It's, it is, it is very difficult. It cause all the substances apart from ketamine, which is a loophole because you're probably aware that you may not be that ketamine in this country and in the states actually, is, because it's a prescribed drug. It's a pre med. And so it is not on the list of banned substances. It's not a shedule a drug as both LSD and Ayahuasca and heroin are all all on the same list. I mean, it's extraordinary, but they are all sheduled a drugs in in the UK. So they are illegal. So, there is no way that I could legally integrate the use of any of those substances into my practice. I guess I I would not be interested in doing so. But I guess that I could seek to become involved with an organisation. There is one in the UK. To my knowledge, there may be more who are legally using ketamine for the in the in the therapeutic context. And I know I was zooming actually yesterday with a friend of mine in Los Angeles, who is a therapist, and he has he is he has paid to be part of a programme which is using ketamine and the whole thing is done remotely, you're sent the substance. There's a lot of support from psychiatrists and psychologists to take you through the whole process and there I think he has six he will have six sessions with with cattlemen, which is a justed according to his, his response to them, so that that is legal in some states, I understand but not necessarily all, in the United States, in the UK, it that's different. Ketamine is used, but under very, very strictly controlled conditions, I think one clinic in one city, to my knowledge that may, I may not be entirely accurate on that. But from a personal point of view, I cannot, although I would love to integrate into my practice the use of something like psilocybin, but it's illegal, so I wouldn't be running huge risks by doing so. And it is just, it is, it is just not not possible to to do that. But if my, my wish, my hope, would be that very soon, the limitations which are placed on the use, particularly of psilocybin, I mean, I, I do feel that psilocybin is very different in, in, in the nature of the experience from Ayahuasca. And and that's also certainly my, that's my experience. But I think that wouldn't be the case for most people. And psilocybin, I think probably because of the nature of the experience is probably more widely lends itself to wider use than Ayahuasca. And that, again, so much depends on the individual. But although I would love to be able to integrate them either a permit into my practice, it simply is not possible to do so without huge professional risk.
Julia Malcolmson 36:53
And I think though, at the, at the moment, it looks like these that is slowly changing. There's a lot of policies up for review, especially around psilocybin. And I know actually, I think it was in October, Boris Johnson actually said that he was going to examine all the latest advice on the legalisation of psilocybin for therapeutic uses. And it's the same with a lot of a lot of the states, they're gradually re looking at, especially psilocybin and how it can be used and how it can be legalised for therapy. Which I think is wonderful.
Martin O'Toole 37:33
It is and actually well, setting aside the fact that we can't trust a word that Boris Johnson says, Unless you believe you didn't have a Christmas party. You in the United States. Now I think it was maybe three weeks ago, the 13th city or the 13th American city decriminalised psychedelics. So there is now a huge push certainly in the US to decriminalise nationwide and introduce the use of psychedelics for therapeutic purposes. Of course, how that works, how it's rolled out, I have no idea i honestly I have huge fears about it as well. If I'm going to be brutally honest, it's no coincidence that governments have not just criminalised but absolutely demonised these medicines and demonise the use of them and demonise the people who use them. Suddenly, when Big Pharma has invested in a load of development to synthesise DMT and synthesise and synthesise the psilocybin into small pills, suddenly we have government supporting it. Anyway, moving on from that. The point is, I'm I'm really on the one hand, I'm really happy about that, because it means that the wider world is going to have access to these medicines that I've only been using for a few years for my mental health, and it completely changed my mental health completely and utterly fixed me is the best way to put it. But of course, for 1000s of years, other people have been using these medicines without any without any problem. And I suppose that's where the concern lies. Because if you look at I think that actually the biggest killer in the United States now is fentanyl, isn't it? That's actually the real pandemic is this fentanyl, which is available on the black market. And they've got a real real problem with it. And I suppose my huge concern with synthesising psychedelics, putting them into a tiny pill is what happens when the black market in in pharmaceutical psychedelics explodes because, you rightly, you made a really, really crucial point at the beginning of this conversation, Keith and that is, and I will say this anytime on this podcast that we're talking about psychedelics, it is absolutely crucial that if you are going to work with psychedelics, you must be in the right place with the right people. And with the right guide. The expression is set and setting and you'll hear it frequently, you'll hear me say all the time, you can walk around the streets of Costco as a solo tourist as I have, and people will walk up to you on the street and offer you a bottle of Ayahuasca. It's absolutely insane. And of course, these these people who don't know any different just buying an herb, a huge bottle of Ayahuasca taking it home to or taking it to the bedsit or the hotel or staying in, probably mixing it with alcohol, probably mixing it with other narcotics and so on and so forth. And of course, having pretty awful experiences. So, so I'm really, you know, I don't want to be a downer on it, because I'm with you, Keith. I'm like, Yes, therapeutic treatment for all. And let's face it, a laser cut key into therapeutic treatment, this is this is going to change the world of mental health treatment forever. You know, there's no two ways about it. And you're either going to be on the right side of it, or the wrong side of it. But at the same time as, as I'm excited, I'm also terrified for what could happen if people just start buying the these things on the street, what's your opinion of that?
Keith Hagenbach 41:30
It tends to I share a lot of your fears, but the Zoom yesterday, which I mentioned, did go some way to reassuring me so let me just give you a little more detail. This is the friend of mine who's on this ketamine programme is a psychotherapist himself works a lot with trauma with young people. And he had had exposure his first experience of was with psilocybin quite recently as far as sort of plant plant medicine was concerned. And when he said he was going on to this ketamine programme, I was very interested because I have a lot of fears. Partly that once it once any of these substances become available widely, that the people who come in are the men in white coats the men in suits and the men who are looking to make money and the magic is lost and I am a huge believer in in in magic. And there is also I was worried that the spiritual dimension and again to me that is an absolutely crucial dimension in the use of these substances. And I felt that that would be at risk. So I quizzed my friend on who is now about three weeks into the programme about how it was set up. And it was very interesting Martin, the company, which is supplying the cattlemen and has put this programme together is the brainchild of a young man who had for years suffered from very serious depression. And he had gone through all the convention down all the conventional routes and had had no success in in ameliorating his condition. Until he tried, I think it was I watched her in fact, he then realised that and that transformed his condition and he then made it his hit, it became a dream appears to make that kind of healing available to other people because of his personal experience. So, the the the the whole intention behind his company is to bring that healing to people in the environment of the market. So, he has made these the cattlemen available he the and not only made it available but the backup I quizzed my friend closely and as I say his psychotherapist himself and which of course gives him huge amounts of wisdom and knowledge and I mean I need hardly tell you what wonderful people psychotherapists are, but his, his his and he said them back up in terms of the care and the understanding and the wisdom and the insight of the people who were providing the backup. So not only The the the the very careful checks that were done on his, his condition before they accepted demand to the programme. He said that was rigorous. During the programme, they're very careful on making sure that there are people available both during the the ketamine experience, which actually apparently is a very short one, it's about an hour, but then there is always somebody online, available in case there are adverse reactions and so on. And he said, he feels very held, he feels that the quality of the backup is, is very good. And I thought, okay, it is, it's my fears about this all falling into the hands of people who just want to make money, like your people in the streets of Cusco and I experienced this and Casca get anything on the street, you can and that is dangerous. And that is, you know, that creates a risk for anybody who is unwise enough to go down that route. But it is possible. And my the programme, my friend is on at the moment reminded me that actually, there can be people who are running these programmes, who are who have integrity, and who have honest and, and clear and clean intention. And so there will be cowboys, of course, there will be people who don't respect it, there will be people who are just in there for the money that is unavoidable. Encouraging people to check very carefully, you know, the the any organisation any company that that they are planning to work with, and it's down to taking responsibility for that. And so it's my fears were allayed to quite an extent yet, by that conversation I had yesterday. As I say, it doesn't take away all the risk, it never will. But it is possible for it to be done in integrity, and to be done. And he said, he is finding it really valuable.
Julia Malcolmson 47:08
And as you said, you always got to do the research yourself. Because even if you go to Cusco or you go to the Amazon, there's a lot of cowboy people out there calling themselves shamans, you know, so whether you take the approach to go into the more traditional route of plant medicines, or you want to work with a psychotherapist, because both have such great merits you, you have to really take responsibility for yourself and, and make sure that you're working with somebody that, you know, has been recommended to you that you have researched and that you're happy to work with.
Keith Hagenbach 47:42
I think that's that's that that is huge. Yes. And as he was speaking, I just recommend there's a beautiful, it's sort of a reconstruction of one man's experience called the Lost Shaman. I don't know whether you've come across that. But it's on Netflix, and it follows a young man, an American who goes to Peru, and is is then involved in self in looking for the right person to work with, and has some some real trials around that. But it's beautifully done. And as I say, it's the last shaman and I would really recommend it. And it does, it's sort of it reminds people that they need to pay close attention to what they're doing in this in this sphere, and to really take responsibility, and to be absolutely sure that that they can trust whoever they're working with. When you
Martin O'Toole 48:47
did your first journey. How much fear did you have based on the societal and media programming that we all receive around these around psychedelics?
Keith Hagenbach 49:00
On a scale of nought to 100? About naught? Wow, okay. I mean, again, it it that that may sound a bit flipped, but I had to come back to that moment. I looked into my son's eyes, he just said you, this is for you. And it's as though it was as though okay, my guide my guardian angel was speaking through him. It was not just you'll enjoy this so you'll get a hit out of there. So yeah, this was this is for you. And so when I went in, I was much more worried about whether I was going to lose my luggage on the connecting flight from from Lima to Iquitos. That was that was that I was worried about I had to get into had to turn to my to my travel angels and say For God's sake, get please, please least get my bags there, you know, because I don't want I want changes of underwear when I, when I'm when I'm on this this life changing experience I want to have clean socks but no it didn't. It has absolutely remember remember my age also, I mean I've been, I've been kind of around the mill around the block I've had an interesting life a lot of interesting experiences. So say lipped in a beef of her for a long time. And also, in a way, I just absolutely knew that if I had been guided to go there at that time for that experience. Those beings who look after me have never let me down. They bumped me through some or invited me to to be part of some very, very challenging and sometimes painful and traumatic experiences. But always, always, always, they've been taking me along my, my path. And I just knew that this was this was no different. And I just like to if I may just to go on about the first when you said you know, did you have any fear? And it's interesting where in my first it's okay if I just go on a little about the first ceremony, but of course, yeah,
Martin O'Toole 51:24
I'd love for you to share whatever you're comfortable sharing.
Keith Hagenbach 51:28
Yeah, it's because it's it's part of the answer to your question actually. So at the at the conscious level, at the conscious level, I had absolutely no fears no reservations. And when I went into the first ceremony I was immediately uncomfortable. Not only the taste of the Ayahuasca which I cannot I mean, you guys have experiences begin to describe describe it, so I won't.
Martin O'Toole 52:05
It's It's unpleasant.
Keith Hagenbach 52:07
It unpleasant, pleasant doesn't begin to cover it. We would we would need language which I'm sure would offend the sensitive ears of a lot of the listeners to your your highly highly respected podcast. So what anyway? I mean, if I wish I wish I'd say tastes like Shake. Shake. Make sure it tastes good.
Martin O'Toole 52:33
I think that would be a that would be an accurate representation. I've done. I've done over I've done around a dozen ceremonies now. And I still cannot get used to the taste.
Julia Malcolmson 52:43
Or the thought of it just makes my stomach flutter and my body shudder. Yeah, yeah, it's
Keith Hagenbach 52:49
in that case you wait you wait, you wait to try mescaline if you think that's bad.
Martin O'Toole 52:53
Well, I'm assuming mescaline is quite similar to San Pedro because he's a cactus, isn't it? And I've done my fair share of San Pedro as well which is what humour which is also DMT. Anyway, let's move on to to your first experience. Okay.
Keith Hagenbach 53:09
So I my first I was although as I say it the my rational mind my logical mind, my left brain was there was there were no worries, but during the ceremony, I became increasingly uncomfortable about pretty well everything. I mean, I was lying on a thin on a rug on on the on the floor on the ground, and it was uncomfortable. And then part of the ceremony and I knew nothing about what happened was the chanting and I found that chanting was was very loud. And then the word gongs which were extremely loud, so loud, that they were painful to my ears, and the whole experience at the physical level. They came overwhelming all my senses were overwhelmed. And of course the and then the the smell of the of the smoke was made me nauseous.
Martin O'Toole 54:27
Was that the sage or the Palo Santo? Yeah, it does. That doesn't Yeah,
Keith Hagenbach 54:32
I can't I can't remember what it was. I kept asking what what was the smoke called? And I was told and could never remember for more than two minutes. But So increasingly, I was becoming uncomfortable. Then, that was heightened by the fact that I wanted somebody to tell me what was happening and nobody told me what was happening. So I then be became angry, angry that nobody was looking after me. Nobody was inquiring about my well being, nobody was seeing whether I was comfortable. Nobody was offering me another a rug to put over me in case I was cold. So I was feeling extremely increasingly. And of course, the the, the ceremony goes on for quite a long time. But I was my, my discomfort and anger was rising to a crescendo now, and I was I was angry with David that he was, he was not caring for my well being there was a whole, there was a huge cauldron inside me of anger with the way I was being treated. So at the end, but I realised a part of me realised, wait a minute, this is what you need to experience. And then another part of me said the hell without a blood, I do not need this. This is this is I am I am not being I'm not being respected as a human being. I mean, so it was it was a very powerful emotional experience. And at the end of the ceremony when when the effects were wearing off, I remember David came around to talk to us, me hi was. And he said, I think you said I You all right, right at the end. And I use some pretty strong language, which again, I'm not going to repeat on your on your podcast, but I swore at him. And I said, you know, no, I'm, you know, no, absolutely. I'm bloody well not and much stronger than that. And I realised that I needed to, for some reason, which at that moment, at that moment, I didn't understand, but I knew that there was a therapeutic content to what I'd gone through. Yes, as you mentioned, the grandmother or I see as the as the mother, I tend to take kindly to being seen as a grandmother as
Martin O'Toole 57:21
well, where she's from time is just a construct.
Keith Hagenbach 57:27
My last my last ceremony, side, done the the first one and then after that, I was just as I say, in an ecstatic state, and the the third of the three remaining ceremonies, she brought me back while I found myself in my sitting room, which is where I see my clients. And she was wearing the most beautiful, beautiful blue, shiny blue dress. And that was nothing to do with my fetish for shiny blue dresses. It was to do with a fabulous butterfly, which I had seen and I believe that they're they're quite common in Peru. And they they have, they are a brilliant blue colour. And so the mother I asked her stress was the colour of the butterfly. And she was whirling round, she was whirling around the room where I where I see my clients. And I realised that she was cleansing the space. She was actually cleansing the space in which I work. And she was welding round and it was just breathtaking. She was there was light all around her. And it was it was beautiful experience. And it was so beautiful. I was in tears, because I just thought, what a lovely, what a lovely gesture, what a lovely gift for her to clean where I work. And I had the thought, hey, wait a minute. Wouldn't it be lovely if she did the whole house? And then I thought, come on, you can't ask a goddess to go round and clean your bloody house might be serious. You know, she's a goddess. You know, you just can't do this, you know, just get real. And I thought well, you know, the worst you can do is say no. So I sort of very reverentially I said, Do you mind slipping around the rest of the house and just doing the cleaning thing. And so without a word, she just swept off into the rest of the house. And I was training around her. And it was absolutely beautiful. I mean, I felt that all any negativity, anything which I wanted to get rid of. She was she was cleaning away. And certainly the work that I did when I came back, and many aspects of my life were were were transformed and I could feel one of the things was that she's Quite uncompromising, I would say that was my experience of her, you know, whereas in therapy is often seen as being sort of holding and gentle and caring and loving and all that stuff. And for me, this is kickass therapy. Yeah, I mean, she just, she just expects you to do things. And I found that I was becoming much more forthright in the interventions, the things which I would have hesitated to say, and hesitated to reflect to people just didn't have the courage to, once I had had that experience. I had more courage and was more forthright. And that really showed in my, in my work, and in that context, and you have to be careful, Martin, because whenever you ask me anything, I will talk talk for hours, because I sort of see patterns. And I have to tell you, at that time, I was playing a lot of tennis, and I decided to have a tennis coach. And I saw him once a week. And when I came back, the just after I'd come back from Peru, I had two or three days after I had a session. And after about 15 minutes, he said to me, Keith, what is happening? What has happened, you are your whole game is transformed. And I was playing everything off the front foot. I was playing everything, without fear. And I was just so exciting, because that was part of me. But I've been controlled. You mentioned the word, you know, control. I had been fearful about expressing myself fully. And I just had the joy of expressing myself fully on the tennis court, in my life in my work. And that was really a sort of hallmark of the experience. But yeah,
Martin O'Toole 1:01:54
that is beautiful. And it's a quite a common, it's quite a common thing. I think people hang on one second dogs. Were making a podcast. Sorry, Ati and Mudah are behind the sofa.
Keith Hagenbach 1:02:05
Sure, fed up with the sound of my voice I get the same thing with my cat, they
Martin O'Toole 1:02:09
just restless always restless as long down here on the camera. Anyway, it is witching hour. But so many people come away from their own Oscar experience seeing similar things, not that they got better at tennis. But certainly they got better at dogs. They got better at life. And I don't know about you, I obviously you've been a psychotherapist for a long, long time. So you, you you're a healer. And as a result, he was certainly my perspective of doing that job, day in day out is that you are you are in service of others. And in a wonderful way if I might add, did you feel after your after your retreat when you came back? Did you have a more sense of an intrinsic, more intrinsic connection to everyone was the more love in your heart.
Keith Hagenbach 1:03:10
That's an interesting one. I kind of struggled because of that birth experience. I think I've always had a struggle with feeling connection. I mean, at the, at the rat, part of me part of my consciousness says, I totally embrace that. And I do feel a connection to others. And to the to the to everything that exists. I'm into the I'm surrounded by plants and I have a cat and and you know they are all living living beings and I can one part of me completely accepts My glories in my connection. I including to dogs actually.
Martin O'Toole 1:04:02
You can have them. I'll ship them in about 10 minutes.
Keith Hagenbach 1:04:06
No, no, no, no, they might not. They might not appreciate that. But, but to really, you know, do I really? Do I feel it in the depths of my heart. I think my heart is where I struggle, Martin, my my heart I am still I am still fearful of allowing that connection. At an at an emotional level at a spiritual level. I can absolutely make that connection just as with every client, with every client I've ever worked with, I can see the absolute beauty of their souls and their beings. But because I am more comfortable at this in the spiritual dimension, yeah, that's probably the best way to put it. I'm more comfortable in the spirit. ritual dimension that I am in the emotional dimension. And so yeah, yeah, just that does that. Does that make sense? It does.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:11
It doesn't and thanks for your candour. I think, as we mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, everyone has a very different experience with this these medicines. I think there's a series of things that happens to all of us. I think, as you said, first time you do Ayahuasca, you are presented some of the deepest darkest things that have happened in your life. That's a fact that happens to everyone. And of course, if you're if you live in a state of fear anyway, or egos very, very strong for you, then then that alone could be enough to put you off doing this. But excuse me. But then there are lots of other things that it does to different people. And it depends on obviously, it depends on on our life experience, isn't it? It depends on the journey, some of us may have been fortunate enough to only have had minor traumas, some of us might have grown up in a hideous family arrangement from from day dot. Either way, one thing you do know is, well, whatever that thing is, however deeply buried, it is into the subconscious unconscious, it's coming out. It's coming out, it's gonna get a dust
Julia Malcolmson 1:06:23
you cannot hide,
Martin O'Toole 1:06:24
no, you can't, can you and and if you are able to fully surrender to that process, then absolute transformation happens. When you should say, you know, you were talking about that sense of resistance, we've talked about resistance. When I, the first time I ever did Ayahuasca it was a particularly strong medicine, incredibly strong medicine. And I for a long time, I was I was in the, you know, the sacred geometry space with the malt with the rainbow colours, and, you know, the fractals and this amazing imagery, but I was so sort of lost in this loop of it that I kept saying, it's not working, this medicine is not working, when when am I actually going to go on this journey? When am I going to go on this journey? is not working is not working? And when am I going to go on this journey? And I realised, suddenly, I was stuck in a loop. And you know, many people who have worked with Ayahuasca will know what I'm talking about. Sometimes you find yourself in a loop. There are lots of concepts as to what why that is personally I believe you're you're stuck between places, and you can't, because the body's holding on egos holding on, you're not able to let go fully. And often,
Julia Malcolmson 1:07:39
for me, I believe it's because there's something you're not learning, or there's something that you're not seeing. So you keep going back through that loop, which we do in life as well, you'll notice your life has those loops. And then eventually, ah, it's almost like playing a game, isn't it? It's like, ah, there's the key, I can see it now. There it is. And then you you, you get that you get your points, and you're allowed to move on to them,
Martin O'Toole 1:08:00
then you're off to the next level. Yeah, or the next dimension, depending on your perspective. Of course. I'm conscious, we've been enjoying this conversation so much we've neglected to play or to share the questions from the audience. As you know, we have a segment on the show called Be my guest. And most of the time we have people send questions in and we have two questions for you from a listener. So I'm going to play one and then let's listen
1:08:28
Kate (Be My Guest audience recording) 1:08:45
Hi, Keith, thanks so much for being on the show and sharing your wisdom with all of us. I have two questions. And the first one is, throughout your experience with Alaska so far, what has been your most profound takeaways? And were there any insights that have changed how you go about your daily life going forward after
Martin O'Toole 1:09:06
Great question, I suppose rolling on from the things you've already shared. What have you got?
Keith Hagenbach 1:09:11
I think it is it is good question. I think probably the main thing that I've taken away is going back to that example of the tennis about that I found myself on the front foot and I think I'm not I think I know that I am more ready to be braver to show more courage in the way that I approach things. So that's the way that I interact with people. And not only personally but also professionally, that I am. There is less fear. I think that's it. Yeah, that I that the IMI screw experience took me back to a place of extreme fear and help to show me that it is that fear is just fear. And it is about moving into a state of trust underlying ourselves. Well, now I'll stay with me allowing myself to be more authentic, and to respond without anticipating that sort of a negative response and and worrying about it just to be who I am, and to trust that other people will deal with that and the way that they deal with it. So I hope that answers your question. I think it's about the taking the removal of a great deal of fear. And that was, or has been, and is a huge gift from the Ayahuasca experience,
Martin O'Toole 1:10:58
I would say that's a beautiful gift of you, if you if we all consider for a moment how fearful we can be, and how, certainly, looking at the last two years, what's happened to the world? How fear can drive can drive a lot of negativity. What was your big takeaway from Ayahuasca, your first experience,
Julia Malcolmson 1:11:23
my first experience I think it was just it was just that reminder for me of staying connected to love and gratitude, that has always been a big one with me. And I asked you and I always come out of the ceremony, I'm always exhausted. But I always just have this constant reminder to everything I interact with everything I touch, everything I look at, to offer love and gratitude, but in such a deep way that it's you're really feeling it right at your core
Martin O'Toole 1:11:52
gratitude. I think I got, okay,
Keith Hagenbach 1:11:56
I'm sorry, I have to have to come in here and just interrupt you. And this will be completely lost on the people listening to the podcast, because they can't see you. But right now you are holding hands. And that is just beautiful. There is just that lovely connection, it makes it you know, there are two beings with a really beautiful connection. And I'm able to witness that. And that energy comes across in what you do. So I just would like to reflect that to you and how beautiful and heart connected that is.
Martin O'Toole 1:12:33
Thank you, Keith, that's very kind of good. It was my Well, I can't possibly explain all the things that happened in my first Ayahuasca journey, because it was ridiculous. But I would say one of the key messages I received from the grandmother was take better care of your earth rover. Now, for those of you don't know what I'm talking about, the earth rover is the name I have for my body. And having spent 20 years hard drinking, taking a lot of drugs, smoking cigarettes, fighting, being hit. I was I went into that into that ceremony with a number of injuries. And I'd been blinded, actually, rather recently by someone well, I'd been blinded, in 2015 in a sucker punch, this chap assaulted me. And that I had to have two surgeries and I can't remember. Yeah, I just had I got cataract and my, the lens of my, the lens of my left eye had collapsed inside my eyeballs. So they had to get inside the eye and take the lens out. And I'd, I think I'd had the surgery maybe a few weeks before, so I couldn't see. And I had injured my knee in a in a drinking incident. The year before. Really bad, really bad drinking incident. And, and my knee was still causing me loads of problems. And I've got a shoulder that pops out here because that was a drinking snowboarding incident again, so I just got this huge hug from the grandmother Ayahuasca and, and, and a lot of healing. Attending to my body is difficult to explain almost energetic theory or surgery. And this message just you must take care of the the earth rover, you've got to take care of the body because you've got lots more to do and lots more to give. But you can't if you smash that if you smash up your spacesuit. So that was it. Thanks for that wonderful question. We have a second question from the same person.
Kate (Be My Guest audience recording) 1:14:42
And my second question is, do you have any advice for someone who is considering Ayahuasca for the first time? Thanks.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:51
Another great question
Keith Hagenbach 1:14:52
to say indeed. Yeah, I guess to to talk to Do your research, I think just to, there is such a lot out there, which is really, really valuable. And I would have mentioned it right at the beginning. And I mentioned it again, Michael Pollan's book, which I think is a very, very well written and very clear, and very honest, and very informative and very balanced view of the, the whole area of, of the audit, using plant plant medicines, including Ayahuasca. And so I would encourage you to talk to people who have had the experience and to maybe, you know, read read the books, there are a lot of good things on YouTube, including Michael Pollan does have some YouTube videos up. So I would encourage you to, to find out about it, and then to so that you are able to enter it, if you decide to go ahead, then to do it. With clear intention, I think that holding clear intention is is hugely important. It's as though you, you are focusing your consciousness on whatever you you feel that you want to deal with. And having done that, paradoxically to let go all attachment to going along any paths that you are expecting or anticipating or hoping for, to trust the process to trust the the mother or the grandmother to take you on the journey that you need. And that may sound a bit airy fairy, but it's the best I can do to articulate the the approach which I would would recommend it is about entering with trust. No, that's good advice.
Julia Malcolmson 1:17:11
Very good. What would your advice be?
Martin O'Toole 1:17:14
Well, adding to well, actually just another, another book or an documentary, I always recommend to people is DMT, the spirit molecule, which is by Dr. Rick Strauss, I think it's quite an old documentary now, but certainly very much worth watching. But adding to to what Keith said, I would repeat what I said earlier, first and foremost, once you've made that conscious decision to to do this, make sure you know where you're going to do it and with whom so important. Like this is where people get it so wrong. If you get if you don't get the right set and setting and you get the wrong guide, you are entirely likely to have an incredibly bad experience. And as people say the word trip by trip and I don't like to use the word trip, it's a journey. Trip implies it's there's something flippant about this for me, it's the antithesis of flippancy actually you engage in in, in committing to do this work to do this journey. I can absolutely categorically guarantee you is the best gift you will ever give yourself in your whole life until you do the next one. But it with that becomes gravitas, you know comes you must take it seriously. And so there are other basic things like make sure you do the better if you can stay away from alcohol, caffeine, salt, sugar, chilli meat, the whole list of that, that you'd be given for at least a fortnight. cleanse the body because what the medicine does while it's in there is it does give you a serious cleanse and one of the things that people are terrified about when they hear about Ayahuasca courses. Oh, what? Aren't you sick all the time? Yes, it's called purging. And some people are fortunate to not purge my first two Ayahuasca journeys that didn't purge at all. Some people purge like there's no tomorrow and
Julia Malcolmson 1:19:19
it can be it's beneficial to purge it is not a it's not a negative to purge nor negative to not purge.
Martin O'Toole 1:19:25
No, it's essentially well, how can I explain this simply, from my perspective, purging is your body objecting? It's not because the medicines making you sick the medicine is is enabling your body to eject negative energy, toxicity, blocked energy. That's a whole part of this process is to unblock trauma. And what is blocked trauma? Well, it's its emotion, its energy in motion, but of course it's not in motion because it's stuck. And there are lots of studies been done to discuss somatic storage of trauma, which we've we've discussed on other podcasts, and I'm sure we could do again. So yeah, that would be my main advice. But, you know, there are serious sides to this whole thing. It is a serious business. But I have to tell you just echoing what Keith already said, he had an absolutely a heart opening experience, and most people do on their first journey, it is the best gift you could give yourself. What about you?
Julia Malcolmson 1:20:32
Um, I think I would say, let go of any expectations. Because, yes, I do agree with talking to people about their experiences, but actually, sometimes I think that can often put a lot into your mind, and then you expect a similar thing in your journey. So I think, yeah, let go of all, all expectations, and go into it with a completely open mind and an open hearts. Let go as much as you can buy, allow, allow yourself to just let go the resistance. And for me, an important part is after, after the journey, to really connect back in with nature. And I like to journal because I think so much happens during the ceremony, that sometimes writing it down or, or talking out loud, is very, very beneficial. And then that's when you can start working on the integration, because it's all very well going through this process and having these incredible insights and working through things. But if we don't integrate it, then actually we kind of, in a sense, I feel that work over time kind of slips away, and we do forget a lot of it, you know, that's often why we go back and, and we'll repeat a ceremony so that that we remember again, but actually, I imagine that's why psychotherapy comes so well into this because actually, you're dealing with so much to have a professionals talk to you about it and to guide you through the process. Either before I don't know if it works during but after, that's surely the best integration that you can have.
Martin O'Toole 1:22:09
It is, I think I would totally agree. And actually, this project that we want to do in Brazil willing will integrate Ayahuasca Medicine and psychotherapy. So I'm very excited to talk more about that as it develops, because well, what's your what's your view? Keith, Have you have you been speaking to people in the, the, your fraternity about this if you're talking to to fellow psychotherapist now saying, Hey, guys, I got something new to talk about. And if so, how's it been received?
Keith Hagenbach 1:22:43
Just going going back to what you said about integrating my first thought after my own experience was that is what I want to do that is the role that I want to do, I want to find people who are whose expertise is in running the ceremonies, the shamans, and to work with them. So that if people need to integrate the experience afterwards, that I can bring my, my sort of therapeutic, or my experience as the therapist to bear, because I realised that I got a huge amount out of the experience because I was able to do my own integration process, because I could bring my all my experience as a therapist to bear on what had happened for me. And that was hugely helpful. The problem the challenge, because the it is impossible to legally run anything in this country. Using say, I asked her for example, because illegal it is it is really difficult to, to network very much about it. And, and it's difficult to find an opportunity to do what I would love to do, which would be to be the therapist who works with people after they have had the the the, the experiences with the whether it's psilocybin or with or with Ayahuasca or anything else because of that barrier of illegality. Now, I'm still I'm still managing managing to do it, but I have to do it with great with great care, and even to, you know, admit publicly that I'm doing it. I mean, that there may be a risk involved in that but to to answer your question, honestly, I think it is worth doing that. So my impulse is to do as much of that work cuz I can give them that there are barriers and talking to other psychotherapists, I think there is still a lot of fear, a lot of fear. I mean, I spoke to my supervisor, for example, and she said, and understandably said, because it's in any, because the substances are illegal, I cannot, I cannot, you know, have any, I cannot talk about any aspect of that. So this is huge amount of fear. And until that fear is reduced by the substances being made legal. I think that there that will be quite a huge barrier in this country. But of course, it is different in other places.
Martin O'Toole 1:25:46
Well, actually, you just reminded me of our first guest. So, the first guest way back when on Episode One season, one of the how to die happy podcast was a chap called Liam Farquhar and Liam isn't, Ah, okay, so you hit it right? Well, sighs You know, he's London based, is a certified psilocybin guide. And how he navigates the trickery is to is to is to work with the clients in Amsterdam with the medicines. And then there is I think there's pre and post therapy in the UK. Not ideal, as you can imagine, nevertheless, it seems to work for him. And well, there's, it's not surprising, he set up that consultancy practice. Very, very close to as doing the podcast, and he is overwhelmed with clients now. And he regularly shares the testimonials that these people write to him, and they are absolutely beautiful. You know, they make your heart sing. He's treating people with PTSD and with trauma all the time. Incredibly, successfully. That's the point. That's the phenomenal point of this whole thing is, yeah, I get it. There is fear. There's fear from the authorities. This fear from the medical fraternity, fraternity, it's not really fair, is it? medical professions bit misogynistic, misogynistic, isn't it? medical profession, and there's fear from the general public. And I think if I could give, you know, one sort of nugget to anybody listening to this is, this is the work we have to do to overcome I think right now, because words are given meaning. Sometimes accidentally, and sometimes most deliberately, as part of a plan, you know, words can be used as programming, just as they can be used to convince and, and so on itself, and manipulate and so on, and so forth. So, one day, if a government is referring to plant medicines as drugs, drugs, bad and K drugs are bad. But then the next minute, they flip the script and decide, actually, it's a medicine. And this is what's happening. By the way, everybody, governments are now saying, okay, yeah, we get it, there are medicines, we, we probably do need to reframe this. It didn't change, the plant didn't change, the treatment didn't change, the the use of this thing didn't change. It was just the words that were used around it. So I would echo something that Keith said earlier on, and that is just do your research and do your own research properly. Don't just look at what Wikipedia says and what Google says off what Facebook says. Because those three sites, for example, are actually trying to deliver certain results to you. It's quite organised in that regard. So you've got to you've got to dig deep and do a lot of research. And yeah, of course, you're gonna find some nightmare stories. But then there is a nightmare story for everything. And it but I guarantee there's a backstory to the nightmare stories, and I'll tell you this, and I said this on one of our other episodes when we were talking about Ayahuasca, usually the nightmare stories are because they're in the wrong place. They were the wrong people. They were the wrong guide. And they may well have also been consuming alcohol and or narcotics. I know for a fact, whether or not you know this, but you go to South America, you can get some of the best cocaine on the planet. And it's available on on every street corner for $5 A bag. It's very, very pure stuff. I haven't taken it in South America, incidentally, because I'm, I've been sober. I was sober when I went there, but I was reliably informed. So when people are going to these countries and getting involved in plant medicine, they're also in the same weekend getting involved with consuming high grade narcotics. That's why people have in terrible, terrible experiences.
Julia Malcolmson 1:29:47
Also, I'd say, has to really resonate with you. You know, I think rather than I think we did cover this, but often it's don't allow it to be something that you're pressured into, like, a lot of things happen, you know, you hear about this, oh, gosh, I should try it. I have never tried it. You know, I didn't work with Ayahuasca till I was 33 No, maybe 34 Because it had never, it was never on my radar, it never, it just, it didn't factor into my life. And then when when, when the opportunity presented itself, everything was perfect to set the setting. And I felt deep down a calling to work with the medicines, it was almost like this communication started happening between myself and the medicine. And that's when I was like, Okay, I am gonna do this. And I was quite fearful. I had I had, I had quite a lot of fear around it. But I have heard stories of other people thinking, Oh, it's one of those things you have to do. I've just got to go. And I've got to go to South America, and I have to work with it. And then they don't have a very good experience, because it's almost like they pressured themselves into it, they've not allowed it to kind of just naturally naturally happen.
Martin O'Toole 1:31:01
No, I think that's fair enough. Well, ultimately, this is, this comes down to healing, doesn't it and there are three things I know about healing. One is that we all do at our own pace. Two is there's no magic bullet. And three, is you really have to want it. Simple as that. And if you have got to that point where you acknowledge that there's some, some significant work that you need to do to change the way you're feeling the way you're interacting, the way you're interacting with yourself and or with others, and you are interested to look out with the traditional psychotherapy route. And that's no disrespect to you and your colleagues. Of course, Keith, for all the right reasons, then you ought to absolutely consider the use of psychedelics, but the responsible use of psychedelics. And as you've as we've identified by talking to Keith, today, the wonderful thing is, with people like Keith around, you could do that work and then go and see a psychotherapist and try and talk some of that stuff through. And, and I think that's super important, which you mentioned integration tools, a key key thing, and a lot of people don't get this right. Well listen, right, wrong. It's all about perspective, isn't it? But I know of people who have worked with Ayahuasca, for example, regularly, and for lengthy periods of time, and I met a chap actually who's, who had a partner, and she'd done 1000, around 1000 Ayahuasca journeys, she was almost Well, she probably was addicted to the Ayahuasca journeys now must say, there's nothing physically addictive about an Ayahuasca journey about the medicine, by the way, now, when
Julia Malcolmson 1:32:47
you when you taste it, you'll realise why.
Martin O'Toole 1:32:49
And when you've done it, you know, when when, when the when the works done, you don't feel compelled to do it again. You know, it's as simple as that. So there's nothing addictive at all. But I think what this woman while this was his, his perspective, but he felt that she was addicted to checking out of reality, this reality reality, I say, you know, what is reality. But she, she preferred, she preferred being there. Yeah, wherever there is right? With this medicine than doing the actual Earth schoolwork here. And I think that's the point about integration. It's all well and good for us to, to put ourselves through all of these, these practices and spiritual processes and plant medicines, and so on and so forth. But ultimately, newsflash, you know, whether or not whether we like it or not, we're born into a school for a reason. We're in the earth rover for a reason. And for as long as we're here, we're here. And, actually, we've got to be able to integrate what we learn and what we experience in these jobs on these journeys back into, into life with other humans. And actually Ramdas talks and talks about this. And I remember being quite profoundly taken by, by that because it reminded me of my own journey and how I perhaps had got a little bit lost in the spiritual awakening side of things. And actually, I was I was, I was, I was Zen. I was living on a beach. Well, not on the beach, and obviously in a house on the beach when you met me, right? I was basically a hermit. I'd stopped doing any work. I was just doing the work. And I was super, super Zen. But then I had to start going out and interacting with humans again. And, you know, it's tough, isn't it?
Julia Malcolmson 1:34:39
Well, we have to really learn to fully integrate into this form.
Martin O'Toole 1:34:44
We do. Yeah. So sorry, Keith. We talked a lot then and you're our guests, so we should let you talk. But before we close off, what I suspect could be a 12 hour podcast if we just carried on and But what So what's next for you then with all of this in mind,
Keith Hagenbach 1:35:03
that's a really interesting one. I've been wondering, you know, at my age, I'm, I'm still on the planet, and I'm enjoying my life, I love my work. And I'm excited by what we've been talking about today. I mean, that has really energised me and activated me and I, I'm not sure where I fit in. But I think it may be something to do with talking to people, encouraging them to look at this as a possibility, not to be frightened of it, and to open to heightened awareness about this whole area. And you know, you bless you have given me the opportunity to be a part of that by, you know, joining you on the podcast. And I think maybe to be an advocate, I don't particularly feel like going off to Holland, I know a bit about the organisation in Holland. And in fact, a friend of mine is a completely mad psychiatrist. But I guess all psychiatrists probably a bit mad, and from ice Iceland, and he went and did the did the programme in Holland, as part of his research. So that was his story. And to be actively involved, I'm not sure I it may have come too late in this lifetime. Of course, I can always, always come back quickly and, and get involved in as a young man again, which will be exciting. But no, I think it's, for me, the future, I think it's about being an advocate and where, where I do have the opportunity to be involved practically to take that opportunity, and to bring to it everything in terms of the care and respect and the integrity and the intention, which it deserves to, to, to bring that to it. So to sort of model what the approach that I would would like others to take to it. And that probably sounds a bit vague, but at this stage of my life, I think it is, I think it is realistic. And then who knows, who knows, the universe may open up something up tomorrow, which is entirely different. And say key, you don't know what you're talking about. Because the you're like you're you're you you turn run your life, your life is is part of a wonderful sort of Clockwork where and every every, every being on the planet is involved. And so and you are part of that, so just wait and see what occurs. So that's partly an intention and part in openness to whatever comes.
Martin O'Toole 1:38:12
Well, I think that's a wonderful aspiration. But there were a number of reasons why we wanted to have you on the show. And I think one was that you've been a psychotherapist for for so long, and of course, because you've you've at a later age or late stage discovered Ayahuasca and I thought that was fascinating in itself. I wanted our audience to hear a completely different perspective on this right and from a man in his late 70s, a psychotherapist in his late 70s. And it was pretty awesome, right? But of course, just one thing I didn't ask you about now, I'm not sad in any way, shape, or form. morbid, but of course, how to die happy is wrapped around this thread of the the top 10 Common deathbed regrets. And I suppose what we're talking about here, overcoming fear, embracing change, surrendering is a thing. It's it's something incredibly dear to our hearts. And it's something that we are constantly keen to communicate on the show to to anyone who will listen. And here's the beautiful thing. You can do this at any age. So now I'm thinking you're pushing eight team has this, this recent experience you've had what effect has that had on your perspective of death?
Keith Hagenbach 1:39:43
I think I I've had quite a strong perspective on death for quite a long time, but it's it's changed recently. So I'm fed up tell you a very brief little story that a long time ago I read about the circumstances of the death of a man called Ronnie Lange Artie Lange, who was a famous psychiatrist. And the I don't know whether you know how Ronnie Lane died, but he's he was an extraordinary man. He was. He pushed the boundaries in a lot of ways. He was used a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol. He was an iconoclast, he really turned the this the psychiatry world upside down by putting the the patient as they were known first, because they, prior to Rodney Lang, really, the psychiatrist had been seen as the sort of the godlike figure who, who arranged other people's lives and and Lange saw it another way. And that endeared him to me enormously. He was a Scottish Scottish guy. And anyway, his death, he was 77. And he was playing tennis with a beautiful 27 year old Swedish girl in the south of France. And he had a heart attack on the court, he was playing at the end, the height, the heat of the day, and he had a heart attack. And he fell to the ground. And of course, everybody rushed up. And somebody said, quickly get a doctor. And apparently running line opened one eye. And I'm going to have to change one word in this to make it suitable for your podcast. And he said, Who said anything about her bloody doctor? And that to me was a Sunni. He actually wanted to die. He knew his time. Yeah. And what are we to do from then on, I've had this fixation about dying at 77, which is how old I am now. And, and that has felt absolutely fine. And then I realised I'd become attached to the idea. It was a sort of romantic idea. And then I thought, wait a minute, what if the universe has different plans for me? What if actually, you know what we've been talking about today? What is if, as an advocate, I can spend a number of years being being useful being part of this process. So I have let go of that idea of dying at 77. It doesn't worry me if I do, that's fine. I'm enjoying my life. And I would love to die still enjoying my life. And I think my, I think to, to have reached the point where I can say, my life is rich, my life is rewarding. And I am ready to I'm ready to leave this planet whenever I leave the planet, is really what I'm able to do now. And I, I just I'm very grateful that I've had the richness of experience, which seems to continue, you know, I come to iOS at the suddenly for whatever I was. And I think, Wow, maybe the other rich experiences for me in life. So I wouldn't just hang around, I won't be attached to staying or going, I will be attached to enjoying each day enjoying my life. And when I die, I die.
Martin O'Toole 1:43:34
That is brilliant. Keith, I hope, I hope that I just, I just want everybody to feel that way. Right? I know, I'm painfully aware that, you know, my dad's 79. So I think about his generation and his upbringing, I'm painfully aware that there are an awful lot of people in his generation. And even in my generation, who aren't, who haven't been fortunate enough to have the experiences or the or the realisations to be able to have this perspective that you have and that we have where I share your perspective. If I got told I was gonna die tomorrow, I'd be like, Cool, man, bring it on. It's been a hell of a ride. And I'm super grateful for every step of it. Even the really painful stuff, you know, because there was a lesson in every one of those events didn't feel like it at the time, of course, because it never does does it? But and I I wonder what it is we can do for our fellow brothers and sisters on this planet to help them share this perspective. You know, yeah, I suppose I just have this lofty aspiration. It's part and parcel of why we're doing the show notes why we're doing this show, to to invite people at any age, in any place in their life to to stop for a moment and and ask them ask themselves, if you got told you have five minutes left to live, right now, what would be on your list of regrets? Now we're just riding with or rather wonderfully learn you wouldn't have a list, I wouldn't have a list. Would you have a list? Maybe maybe, okay, that's all right. But this list of deathbed regrets that, that have been, there's been curated through these studies, it's a pretty miserable list. You know, it's, I wish I'd said I love you more. I wish I hadn't held grudges, I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. I wish I'd had the courage to follow my dreams, and so on and so forth. And you know, and when I say miserable, I don't mean that with any judgement, I guess I just, it just makes me a little bit sad that people are on their deathbed, gasping for gasping for breath, or whatever is happening to that point, and, and they are filled with fear and regret. And I know, just speaking from my own personal experience of what I've seen in the last few years, that there is nothing to fear. And there is a lot more going on than anybody actually knows. So the whole point of purpose of this podcast is to invite people to learn the art of living, and if you can learn, well, that's the secret to dying, well, is learning how to live well. Right?
Keith Hagenbach 1:46:29
Yes, I may I just add one thoughts to that, that I would offer you the possibility that actually it's not about fear of dying, it's about it's about dealing with fear while we're alive. So once the once fearful nests, once we have been able to release our attachment to to life, and are attacked our attachment to anything, and to let go of our fear of anything, then death itself is just one of the things which is note, which is no longer an object of fear. So I think about this quite a lot of focus on you know, are people are frightened of death. I think we can deal with fear. While we are alive, and I feel I've been blessed with opportunities, including the Ayahuasca experience very much to let go of fear. And, and that I'm sure is contributing to the way that I see depth. It is because fear itself, which ruled ruled me for a great, huge amount of my life, fear of how I was going to be seen fear of how I was going to be perceived fear of whether I was going to be abandoned fear of, you know, whether I was okay, whether I was worthy of love. I mean, just fear after fear after fear. And I think as I have progressively been able to release my level of fear, then death is simply one of those things, which is no longer fearful. I am no longer fearful of death
Martin O'Toole 1:48:20
was a wonderful gift to give yourself and isn't it? Okay, well, as we've identified, I think we could do this for quite a long time. Perhaps we should have you back on and and pick another topic to play. But in the meantime, just I just like to say thank you incredibly 1000 times for your time, your energy, your wisdom, and and your vulnerabilities. Well, thanks for sharing some of this stuff. Because, you know, as we know, not everybody wants to talk about these sort of things. Certainly not on a podcast, so very grateful.
Julia Malcolmson 1:48:58
Yeah. Thank you so much, Keith. That was really lovely chat to have with you.
Keith Hagenbach 1:49:03
It's been a lovely experience. And I'm really grateful to both.
Martin O'Toole 1:49:07
Well, the gratitude goes two ways, and a view audience members Hello, have enjoyed this episode, or indeed enjoy any of our episodes. Please consider sharing a little bit of gratitude also, so you can visit how to die happy podcast.com forward slash reviews, we would love to have some reviews from you. And you know, if you don't feel like saying anything nice, then don't review us. Just kidding. We'll take we'll take all feedback was somebody once said to me breakfast is the feedback of champions Martin. He was a bit of a Salesman but yeah, anyway, thank you, Keith. Thanks, Jules.
Julia Malcolmson 1:49:50
Thanks, Martin.
Martin O'Toole 1:49:52
Thanks, everyone.
Keith Hagenbach 1:49:52
I shall I shall go on go on at once and give myself several rave reviews. Like that you
Martin O'Toole 1:49:58
will be welcomed Uh, thanks very much. Namaste.
Keith Hagenbach 1:50:03
Go Well, likewise peace and love love. See you soon.
Julia Malcolmson 1:50:06
Bye
Martin O'Toole 1:50:07
bye
