SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, plastic, bali, barley, world, recycle, action, cnn, throw, life, balinese, government, rice, exchange, village, trash, problem, community, tonnes, die
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Julia Malcolmson, Made Janur Yasa
Martin O'Toole 00:00
Janur thank you for having us in your wonderful home.
Made Janur Yasa 00:32
Thank you for coming.
Martin O'Toole 00:33
Well, it's an absolute pleasure. I have to say this is one of the most Balinese places we've filmed so far. Isn't it?
Julia Malcolmson 00:42
Such a beautiful space?
Martin O'Toole 00:44
It is. And so for the listeners who aren't watching any video, we're actually in general, his wife's studio lady called Hilary. She kindly lent us art studio, would you call it a pottery studio?
Made Janur Yasa 00:58
A lot of pottery is also painting drawing. So yes, she's an artist, he also do clothing. Okay, and all of that. So yeah.
Martin O'Toole 01:12
So we're we're out on the road again, aren't we the how to die happy podcast is yet again on the road in Berlin. But this isn't New York. So tell us all about your recent trip to New York City.
Made Janur Yasa 01:26
While it was great, you know, really great that CNN put plastic exchange on a map, so to speak, that we are on a top 10 CNN Heroes. And really, this is just a testimonials for our effort here in Bali, that the recognition of the dignity, prosperity and environments. So in Bali, we call it theta Karana, which is the three ways to achieve unhappiness. That's the balance between connection human to God, which is the dignity and connection, harmonious connection, human to human is prosperity, and the harmonious connection human to the environment. So if we do these three, we can die happy.
Julia Malcolmson 02:17
He was straight in there , I love it.
Martin O'Toole 02:21
that was the shortest podcast. Thank you, Janur.
Made Janur Yasa 02:23
Thank you. It was great to see you.
Martin O'Toole 02:26
That's beautiful. So but let's face it, that's it's a huge achievement for you to be because obviously, we're gonna talk about plastic exchange in a moment. But let's talk about the CNN thing for a moment. So how how did that happen? How did it come about that you were that you were noticed by CNN?
Made Janur Yasa 02:43
Well, it was pleasantly surprised, I would say, because I do what I do. The people in Bali really embrace the movement of plastic Exchange, which is the exchange between plastic and rice at the moment. And when I start this, I never thought about it, or I'm going to be recognised or this is my goal. So my goal is just one, which is edge to action education in action. And I guess a lot of people also from all over the world that see this movement and nominate me, nominated me to CNN and CNN actually call me. Hey, this is generic, you know? And I said, Yes. This is your speaking. And do you know about CNN Hero? Yes, I know, because one of my friend Robin Lim was a CNN hero in 2009 10, or 15. I forgot but. And Laura, from CNN was asking me Hey, a lot of people nominate you for CNN Hero, would you be would you be interested in?
Martin O'Toole 04:04
No, no.
Made Janur Yasa 04:05
I'm sorry. I'm so busy. I can't do that. Yeah. But yeah. And then I was just like, it's almost like, when you're single and somebody asks you to go out, it's almost like so flattered. You know, like, Oh, wow. And I said, Hey, what, what do I need to do to be, you know, go forward with nomination and he said, We'll do background check on you. We'll do the interview with the third party and all of that. So now on my Tinder is I have CNN theravive. So
Martin O'Toole 04:44
that increases your
Made Janur Yasa 04:45
Yeah, my chance to swipe right swipe left. CNN verified So David, check me.
Martin O'Toole 04:53
Well, it's got to stand for something, isn't it? Yeah. Can
Julia Malcolmson 04:56
for the audience? Can you just explain a little bit about what CNN here Heroes is
Made Janur Yasa 05:01
CNN Hero, it's basically everyday people make a difference. You know, you don't have to be a star, you don't have to be Elon Musk, or a president of the country to make a difference. All of us, you know, you know, you to hear can make a difference, you know, and all of the audience can make a difference. And I always said, you know, if you follow your heart, I mean, it's as cliche as it sounds. And I felt that in my lifetime, like I, I follow what I my heart and gut recognise and it's really pleasantly surprised. And again, you know, this is not about me, it's about the movement about how this movement is really catch on
Martin O'Toole 05:58
putting a spotlight on that. And obviously, you were voted, but how many other people were were voted as heroes? Were doesn't offer you something? Yeah.
Made Janur Yasa 06:07
So the way it works is they choose from, I don't know, 100 people as a, as a nomination and all of that, and then they choose 15th. And then from the 15th, they choose the 10. Top 10 finalists, the finalists and I was one of them, and other people from around the world. Yep. So seven people from United States want people from Africa and one people from Colombia,
Martin O'Toole 06:37
representing the Bali massive,
Made Janur Yasa 06:39
bali, Asia, Southeast Asia,
Martin O'Toole 06:42
putting value on the map route for a good reason. Good reason,
Made Janur Yasa 06:45
you know, I'm, I'm really glad that, you know, this put on a spot. And now it's really opened up a lot of doors. And, and for me, I believe in collaboration, you know, this this problem, you know, say like plastic or garbage, it's our problem, you know, you cannot solve it by yourself. And again, I always said plastic exchange is not the one, you know, but one off. So if we, all of us that have an idea can come together to solve this problem. If we can do this, there is no one system, like a silver bullet.
Martin O'Toole 07:32
So, no, well, I suppose it's part of a wider what you're, what you're trying to tackle is part of a huge issue, isn't it? And we started to do research, we usually do a bit of research, obviously, you'd like to think before we interview people. And it's quite clear that barley isn't just suffering from a trash problem from Barli Bali suffering from a trash problem from, from Java, from other parts of Southeast Asia due to its height. So you have a number of issues to deal with, when we're when we're trying to when we're trying to eradicate all this single use plastic waste everywhere, don't we? What did we come across, we came across a few different organisations that were doing other things.
Julia Malcolmson 08:16
Yeah, there's Eco Bali. Yep. And they, they work with separating trash, because I think at the moment, most of the general trash collection is all just lumped into one. So you can you can pay for them to come to you and they separate the trash. So they've got a good system going. And there's it by by plastic,
Made Janur Yasa 08:34
bye bye plastics, there is another one is called. So my watch. That is I mean, in Bali, for small island, there's probably more than two hundreds, small NGO that working on how to really care for the environment,
Martin O'Toole 08:58
which is a great thing. Yes. On the one hand, of course, on the other hand, we have the problem in the first place. So how will I let's talk about plastic exchange. So let's talk about your well actually, let's talk about your story. Let's take a step back. Who's chan Oh,
Made Janur Yasa 09:14
who am I? I was born in a small village about probably one hour west from Ubud,
Martin O'Toole 09:24
just for our listeners who aren't from Bali Ubud. And pretty much smack down in the centre. It's the heart of Valley and it's where we are today.
Made Janur Yasa 09:33
Exactly. So and I was born in a small village, no electricity, no car, no television, only one transistor radio that we got around to get our news and all of that. And you know, when I was a kid, there was no money as a transaction, we do barter. So this is important because this is what a lot of the thing that I do at plus two connection is really drawing from who I am. And also from the background, you know, through travelling and all of that. So, yeah, and then I went to a bigger town to continue my education I ended up in Denpasar, which is the capital of Bali, I went to the University, graduate from university and when I was in university, I join organisation is called Map Allah, which is Massey, swappa, Cinta alum, which is extracurricular, that care about the environment. So we do hiking, we do diving, we do cleaning, we do education, about the environments and all of that. So and then in 2009, sorry, 1996, before you were born, I moved to United States. And I was getting, I was going to stay in United State for one year and 15 years later, I'm still there. What great about that was I met many, many mentors that really enhance my life and and also shape who I am as a person. I used to work for Outward Bound, if you're familiar with that, basically taking a teenager's to a wilderness and use wilderness or a nature as learning. You know, you carry what you carry, you know, it's a kind of like life, you know, you can carry whatever you want, but it's going to be on your back, you know, do you need to dress do you need three t shirt and all of that. So it's really a lot of decision that you need to make before you go to the wilderness for two weeks, you know. And then I work for a company called Patagonia, which is the clothing company, one of the cardinal brands. Yeah, it's really using businesses to solve the environmental problem. You know, we we all we all make a destruction, you know, doesn't matter how we live, we are using the resources, and how can we give back as much as we can. So I think that's what I really learned from Patagonia escalated the quality integrity, not bound by convention and then fun. And then the second mentor that I also come across when I was United States, Richard Strozzi, heckler, that teach me about the wisdom of the body, you know, our bodies smart. And then from him. He he said to me, there's two kinds of knowledge you know, one is called cognitive just from your neck up. Yeah. So this is you can get from reading people tell you you go to school, you memorise thing you memorise it in your brain basically. And then the second knowledge is called embodiment. Yeah, which is in your body from your neck down. If you think about it, the neck is only 1/10 of our body but we so focused on our hand right? But this this the one that we need to also get the knowledge the only way you can do or the only way you can get the knowledge on your body is through through practice through action. Yeah, so how can you bring this cognitive knowledge become embodiment? Through knowing something through doing something you know something but if you just know something but you're not doing it, you just memorising it you not you cannot do it. So So yeah, so really through him also I learn somatic somatic body so living wholeness you know, a lot of people understand but lot of people cannot do it. I think I really resonate with your story that you share when we were setting this up. You know, a lot of people understand I don't want to do this anymore. But doing it take a courage take commitment and you know, when you make that commitment oh my god you know what I'm signing off what's next? What next because you know, the habit is hard to change. The only way you can change change your habit is through action, period.
Martin O'Toole 14:50
Well, that's why we wanted to have you on the on the podcast as I as I was explaining earlier on the how to die happy is quite a big idea. Really, because ultimately what we're trying to do is is talk to people about life stories to hear about transformation stories, and ultimately, to tie that back to, to death. Sure. And, of course, depending on where you're from in the world, there are certain countries and cultures that would that would deem it morbid, depressing. I don't want to talk about death. We don't want to talk about death. Yeah, well, that's probably part of the issue. Whereas I was very fortunate in my, in my journey, my transformation journey to discover Hinduism to discover Buddhism, and to discover some, some concepts, concepts, and Confucianism, and Taoism, lots of isms that taught me concepts that made me consider being present, living life in the present. And the Tibetan Book of the Dead, is really all about this, it's really all about preparing us for a good death. Yeah, the art of dying is an art. But of course, the secret to the art of dying is in living well. And that's how this podcast came about. And when we came across you we were just utterly inspired by your your story. And what you are doing, because what you're doing is you're bringing about a great opportunity for, for transformation, albeit in in this small way. But you are, ultimately in service of others. And that's, you know, whenever we come across anybody who's in service of others, on this show, we want to, you know, we want to talk to you, because I think we might have said this off camera. It's, again, a bit of a cliche, but but Ghandi said Be the change you want to see in the world. And you'd said, you said something like that, too, as earlier on. And it, it resonated greatly.
Julia Malcolmson 16:53
And also one of our previous guests, actually she was nine, nine years old. And we asked her like, what is the key to happiness? And she said, she said service to others.
Made Janur Yasa 17:05
Wow.
Julia Malcolmson 17:05
Yeah. And we were just like, Oh, thanks for reminding us. It's not cool. And
Martin O'Toole 17:09
a nine year old kid is telling you that?
Made Janur Yasa 17:12
Well, here's the thing, too. Like, it's actually a research being done. You know, this is great thing about, about the West is always quantify, quantify, thing. Yeah, there's lots of research, a lot of research. And is UCLA, doing the research, if you give something, it will last the happiness for six months?
Martin O'Toole 17:34
Okay, I didn't know there was research for this data, what they say.
Made Janur Yasa 17:37
So take it from me. So give me one minute, it's gonna be like, you know, you need to give more.
Martin O'Toole 17:45
Every six months, we must give give something else I spent 40 years of my life in, in addiction and alcoholism, not 40. Obviously, I wasn't when I was a child, but 20, let's say 20 years, but I spent I had a pretty tricky upbringing. So most of my time was spent in service of self, you know, and not, most of that was not very good. I was I was I was I wasn't around a bad person. I was still generous. And I still gave people my time and energy when I could but but in this realisation? I don't know. And I'm going to ask you in a moment, obviously me is that the rare example because she's nine, but do you think it's do you think this transition to, for a lot of us to service to others? is an age thing? Is it got anything to do with how much life experience we have? Or do you think we're just lucky, some of us are lucky to just be always in service to others, and some are not.
Made Janur Yasa 18:47
I don't know how to answer that question. Really, you know, I don't know if age is something to do with that, or culture also probably, you know, a big part of it. Like in Bali, we always give in a way because we live in a community, there is always this obligation in some ways, you know, not an obligation in a bad way, you know, like we we have a community that we need to, to, to cherish you know, and then we we go out as community. So this is what the difference between West and East or barley in specific like, here is a weak culture. And so we you know, when we when we talk is like we you know, when I was in United States, I talked as I you know, I'm Madonna you know, here I am Jana from tabanan and so it's always attached with my community. And then the other thing is about dying or death or and all of that it's a mystery to to all of us. And I think what me as a Bolinas and All of that. Death is a public public display. Yeah, no people. I see people died every day. And we seen it. We Oh, that's that, you know, in United States. I was 15 years. I never seen that body. No. So it's kind of like a mysterious in a way, like, in Bali Yeah, my dad died and I touch my dad, I take care of them for five days in my, in my house and you have a ceremony, we have ceremony Street and everybody reports Yeah, and all of the ceremony actually, to is like a grieving, you know, from grief. And now we cut the ties between your dad and me, and all of this as a symbolics. And I think, as a Balinese, because of that ceremony, because of that step. That we agree, as a community, we grieve as a community, we let it go as a community, make it a little bit in code easier for us to, to talk about that, you know, I don't live in Bali, people talk about that, but people accept, we all gonna die. And we and then we seen it, you know, not like, oh, somebody die. And we see this. You know, usually like in United States that I go to the ceremony that we didn't see the body. They're in a coffin, ya know, or not even coffin we're just like, just the wake of the ceremonies and the body of 30. Someplace we didn't we didn't even know when.
Martin O'Toole 21:49
Yeah, yeah. Well, I without a doubt, we have very different perspectives on on death and dying, I think as well, in between the East and the West.
Julia Malcolmson 22:00
It's very clinical in the West doesn't, it's very hidden, very clinical, and you kind of get taken away, perhaps sometimes if you're going to die almost to try and preserve your life. Well, I
Martin O'Toole 22:11
think that's part of it, I think part of it is is medicines intervention. And obviously, you know, we have hospitals here in barley, I'm not suggesting we don't have medicine here but but Western, excuse me Western medicines intervention into the dying process. In the West, as soon as someone is even if they are terminal, we know that dying, they're still usually taken away from their home in an ambulance, taken to hospital, plugged into something, and probably quite fearful, surrounded by bright lights, and only by light surrounded by strangers, they've been injected, they might have a mask on. And you know, this is spending this the last few hours of their life in this fearful situation away from their family. Whereas in the east, you have this completely different perspective. Don't wait, because I think everyone's more prepared for death.
Made Janur Yasa 23:02
I remember when my my grand grandmother, you know, was just ill, and we tried to, you know, we, of course, as a human being, we want to preserve life. You know, we want to preserve life. And then we do our thing. And after a couple I was like one year two years, and then we all pray please go you know, we we are happy to see you go we don't want to you suffering because we all gonna go through this. So yeah, we go and sometimes we even pray to the God if there is God, please take her away. Yeah, absolutely. You know, so it's almost we are it's okay, to go.
Martin O'Toole 23:48
It's inevitable. It's in all of us. But this is this is the, again, that point of difference. I think with with certain Western cultures, we we don't want to accept the inevitability of death, which is why we don't want to talk about it. Yeah, well, I say we, I, I always I want to talk about I've got a podcast
Julia Malcolmson 24:09
about death all the time.
Martin O'Toole 24:10
I talked about it all the time. But because I want to break the taboos around death, you know, this, this idea that we shouldn't talk about. It's morbid, it's depressing. It's not it's inevitable, just like you breathing in and out. Are you thinking 6000 thoughts a day it's inevitable so and if we know it's inevitable, if we know that the one we also know that the one constant, universal fact is change is the permanence and perhaps we ought to spend most of our life always being aware of that. And therefore, well, that's the idea of the show. Right? You know, hopefully if we do have that awareness, then we can live in a better way. Now conscious I took you all the way to the we went straight to before we talked about the You're amazing initiative. So could you tell us all about the barley plastic exchange? And I think and also just bear in mind when you're telling this story that you have listeners in America, in the UK, in Ireland, in Australia, people from all over the world who, and people in developed countries who have received government support through the pandemic, I think it's probably worth just keeping that in mind through this story. But please,
Made Janur Yasa 25:28
well, here's the thing, you know. Richard said to me, suffering is a gateway to enlightenment, you know, or like your story. My story is like, inside of the problem, that solution in Sudan was challenged, there is a solution. So when I start this plastic exchange was two years ago, which is the beginning of this called COVID. pandemic. And Bali, not immune from that, and the economy down and all of that. So what I see was like 333, challenges, number one, environments, plastic, plastic, plastic, and I said, it's not just in Bali, but all over the world. Yeah. The second one is prosperity. In the short term, Bali, it was not worse, Bali is 80% based on tourism. So tourists and stopped as 80% of the job loss. So people need it in barley rice. And then the third one is what I call dignity. So like you said, you know, a lot of when there's a disaster, a lot of people or people or government, give or bring disaster relief. So what I see is there's one hand on the bottom, and then one hand on top. So and again, there's nothing wrong about people give, it's nothing wrong about people receiving. But sometime we create this unintended consequences. People wedding, Oh, somebody's going to come and rescue me. So I want to bring this hand on the bottom and hand on top, like this. Yeah, like on the same line. In Bali, we call it Tacoma, see, Tacoma mercy, as a receiver become a giver, and a giver, become a receiver or us, me miss you. If I love myself, that mean, I love you, if I love you, that's me, and I love myself. Beautiful. So in this kind of ying yang, if you will, or sure cooler energy. But for me, it's like if you bring plastic will give you rice, so against the receiver, become a giver, and a giver become a receiver. And then the three thing that I were just talking about the environment, the prosperity and dignity, this is the three hitter Karana, which is the three ways to achieve unhappiness, in Bali. So this is the core value of plastic X chains. Dignity is a connection human to God, human to human is prosperity, and human to the environments. And then through this plastic exchange, I do what I call edge action, which is education in action, to get the knowledge to your body. You know, if I asked you, everybody understand plastic is bad, everybody understand? Thing is not good. But can you do it? So this is what I'm aiming for. So a lot of people sometime I got this criticism like, oh, plastic, actually not educating. For me, education is action. Because it's enough of this symposium, this workshop does that and if there's no action after that, nothing will happen. You know, you just get what I call cognitive knowledge, not embodiment. So this is what I again, you know, plastic action is au action, education in action. The only way you can change your habit is through action. Period.
Martin O'Toole 29:20
That's a great brand mantra. I spent a long time most of my career in the branding industry before I moved to Bali. So I also helped companies define their brand values and I have to say, you're, you've you've smashed them all. Over to you.
Julia Malcolmson 29:41
Can you I was wondering actually if you could have give us any figures for kind of how since you started, how much plastic has been collected
Made Janur Yasa 29:48
731 tonne and I've been giving 157 tonnes of rice and we've been feeding About 30,000 household for two years,
Julia Malcolmson 30:04
I don't even think I can visualise either the rice or the plastic
Martin O'Toole 30:09
one. I think like a Volkswagen, typical Volkswagen car, like a Polo is about two tonnes, I think, give you an idea. So that's a lot and how many families 30,000?
Julia Malcolmson 30:23
And what happens to the plastic?
Made Janur Yasa 30:26
Throw it to the ocean?
Martin O'Toole 30:29
That's not my problem.
Made Janur Yasa 30:30
That's not my problem anymore
Martin O'Toole 30:31
on it's way to Australia,
Made Janur Yasa 30:32
out of sight out of mind. No, we do work with we we really, we really think about this. Yeah. Because this is the question that a lot of people ask, what, what do you do after you collect this. So the one that we can recycle recycle, we work with a company in Java, because there is no plastic processing plants yet in Bali. And there is a small percentage or so that we cannot recycle yet, especially the multilayers. And we do still bring that to the landfill. But at least for me, it's on one place for now. But we are working with several company now, Australia, and someone from Singapore and all of that. And also a company in Indonesia, that really concerned about this multilayers plastic specially for the one that used to package the snack, you know, yeah, and there are a lot of those, it's a lot of this, and because there's no value, and nobody wants it, and then just they just throw it to the ground, this is the one that really littered the ground. So like a tea, a cardboard, metal, you know, there is people scavengers that go around village in Bali that collected because there is a economy, economic value to them. So for us that plastic action, we take everything from the non, the, from the low value all the way to high values,
Martin O'Toole 32:09
that's good of you. So even even though some of that you know, can't be recycled, at least you know, you're taking it out of the out of the communities in the landscape and then at least been able to put it in one place, as you say, sadly, is still landfill in some instances, but at least is being collected. Why doesn't barley have a central plastic recycling plant? Yeah, like a processing plant. Because I looked into this and the the equipment, like a factory line, if you like that you need to take a load of, let's say, meaty bottles, and turn them into those tiny plastic pellets. Actually, they're only about $10,000 each, for one line, you can turn an awful lot of trash into plastic pellets. And for for the audience who have no idea about this, essentially, those plastic pellets can then be sold to manufacturers who are keen to utilise recycled or upcycle upcycling in their, in their manufacturing process. So why doesn't barley have a plant like that?
Made Janur Yasa 33:12
A good question. Really good question. So this is the thing that plastic action trying to solve, you know, for now, you know, for me, it's like this, it's, it is a process, you know, sometimes, oh, if I have this, I will start something if I just graduate from high school, I will do this, you know, for me, like, let's do it and figure it out. You know, if if I said until I have this small fabric thing that can turn PT to an account do it. Yeah. And then I will and then I will do it. I understood it is a process. And then why does Bali doesn't have that because barley is zone not zoned for industrial zone for tourism. But we can do this in a small scale in, in what you collect home industry. And one of the things that I'm thinking of right now and really on a on a process now, how can we make this small thing all over Bali? So one transportation is not a massive? Two we do have a create a big land, too. We create jobs for that community. Yeah, so if we bring like bring like a makeup, big accompany or fabric someplace, and, you know, massive and everything, you know. Yeah. And the other thing is about plastic action that not a lot of people know about so we also encouraging what we call a circular economy. So when the people who's the village who's doing this plastic exchange and They need to buy the rice from that village. Okay, so that's part of the deal. Part of the deal. So even if you can go to the supermarket, you can get a cheaper deal. No, no, no, the first one didn't need to find the farmers from that village. If there is no farmers, they need to find a coops from that village. If there is no farmers, no coops, they need to buy it from vendors from that village. In Bali, we call it Waro. You know, we everybody sell rice and all of that and just buy two bags from this vendor, two bags from that vendors. Because this will create that micro circular economy in that village.
Martin O'Toole 35:46
That's a lovely idea really is and empowering. So as you say, instead of the hands like this, you've got the hands like that everyone's working together. And but that's a that's I think that's very that's very Balinese anyway, isn't it? You know, that whole sense of community? Yeah, exactly. And it's, and it's something that many of us from other countries are not familiar with, like
Julia Malcolmson 36:08
nobody left behind Isn't it
Martin O'Toole 36:09
that exactly that? Yeah.
Made Janur Yasa 36:11
Like a lot of people ask me like, Oh, do you have a warehouse to store your rice? No. Why should I? You know, do you have like, a lot of trucks to, to collect the plastic? No, there's so many small recycler company that already exists in Bali, and I work with them. So I don't have to think about the truck. I don't have to think about where should I bring them? The employees, the people. So and again, like I said earlier, the only way we can move forward is collaboration. You can't do it yourself.
Julia Malcolmson 36:51
It's such a great model for almost every country to take in. Because, as you say, most places, it's all centralised. So you'd have all the big trucks and that causes issues on its own. Yeah. And warehouses for the food. The food goes bad.
Made Janur Yasa 37:04
Yep, exactly. So at a plastic exchange, I have only five core people. And the rest is run by the villagers. So like right now there's probably fight flight ticket, plastic action happening. I don't have to be there. So they organise it. So I always said like this, if you want to do plus, take action, I need three crazy people from that village. I need the crazy people if you normally don't do it. Gotta be crazy.
Martin O'Toole 37:34
But I think that's one of things I love about it, you essentially it's a decentralised model. So exactly. And it's handing the responsibility back to the community. So the community isn't looking for this saviour figure to help them
Made Janur Yasa 37:47
and also really cultivating a leader. You know, from from that that village. And Richard says, you know, this is a leader. It's come from a Latin word, it means to make it happen. If you're a leader, you got to make it happen. Absolutely. Otherwise, you just have talker
Martin O'Toole 38:07
difference, isn't it? Well, and the differences in the action as you say exactly in the doing? Yep. Well, I have to say, that model is is absolutely awesome. And what you're doing is great. But I suppose you still have these challenges around you, don't you? And I fully appreciate one of the questions we were going to ask you was, what about education, but I now fully appreciate your perspective on that. So so what what help do you need then from from government or from other NGOs? So that between you you're you're closing that loop, if that makes sense. Quite clearly, you're you're pulling a load of plastic out of out of barley, which is amazing. You're feeding 30,000 Families also amazing. But meanwhile, of course, but the Balinese, a lot of Balinese people still do have a strange relationship or understanding of trash. You know, we've lived all over this island and we've seen suddenly people just dumping piles and piles of trash in the countryside. And but I know full well that the Balinese are connected to the land and they're connected to divinity but they don't have an understanding that if you throw a bag of trash full of plastic on in that forest, it's just going to stay there. Yeah. So So what do you think is the solution to help you do your job better?
Made Janur Yasa 39:37
I always say this, if you want to you know what, what can you you know, what, what can I help you with? My question is what do you good at? What do you good at? So say like you now interviewing me, this is this is your fire. And by doing this, you will you know, I don't know how many people will see this podcast. And you actually already Helping me. You already supporting me? You know, and this is always my question to people. What is your fire? Yeah, you know, I'm not going to try to make you somebody else that you not. Not you, you know, like I'm, I'm doing this podcast I want to interview Sure. You know and because you passionate about it and you will talk about it and this is will go all over the world and who knows who's gonna listen to this? Really for the people who's listening to this podcast? Really what what what are you good at? And how can you help us and then how can you see yourself inside of this big challenge? We need marketing we need money, we need this we need that. Of course we need that. And really, oh, I'm influencer I have million followers in my Instagram. Tag me tell the world just by doing that you already helping a lot. You know,
Martin O'Toole 41:08
incidentally, I don't have a million followers on Instagram. So I was also born in 1975 Either way earlier on you said before you were born I went to
Julia Malcolmson 41:21
speak for yourself.
Martin O'Toole 41:24
I'm old. she's younger.
Julia Malcolmson 41:27
I was gonna say like you know even just through this the awareness we're raising because it's quite easy for I mean a lot of our audience say they're back in England they don't have to stay don't see where their rubbish goes. Oh, you know, so we separate our rubbish people are very good at that because there's there's been a lot of education about recycling. And there's you know, the new one I think gets reduced so don't use it in the first place. Don't buy plastic if you have to reuse it. Yeah, then you recycle if you've had to Reduce Reuse, yeah, I can't remember which makes it makes sense. But you know, we do that and then that plastic magically disappears you know, and some of it gets recycled, but we know full well that a lot of it gets shipped around the world and you know our audience they they don't see that whereas obviously for us living here we see we see where that some of that goes a lot of it ends up and the the people here don't have that help with the plastic they don't have the education and they don't have somebody that picks it up and it magically disappeared well
Made Janur Yasa 42:25
is this is the thing like you know, you said earlier like oh yeah, people in Bali so I mean these three Hita Karana which is connection human to God human to human human to the environment. And again, this is just for me as cognitive knowledge. They understand but they cannot do it. You know, this is what I'm aiming for like action. So action through action will change the habit. Yeah. And we need to have a system you know, so a lot of us do not throw your garbage here but what should I do with it? Yeah, exactly. You know, like you said earlier eco barley and all of this company that come and pick up your garbage and it's under luxery you need to have money to pay for it you know 300,000 a month and all of that and
Martin O'Toole 43:14
sorry and just for our listeners 300,000 rupee here is around $15 $20
Made Janur Yasa 43:19
A shoe something like that. But again, you know, if we look at people needs we have people need food first and then clothing and then the last thing that they want to pay is for garbage you know I need to put rice on a table so you know for me a blaming whose foul it is that game for Miss done you know for me, let's do it. Yeah, you know, let's change the habit the only way you can change a bit through edu Action. Action and I recorded since the beginning of plastic action I did the record three thing that the record dignity, how many people coming prosperity, how much rice we give away? And then environments how much plastic do we collect each name like see like Jana bring plastic type number one this many kilo type number to this many killer because separation is important. So and then at the end January eligible for two kilo of rice so I have all of this. And then what I see is in a village that already done this plastic action for one year, or once a month for one year 1212 times, they already changed their habit. Give me one year to change the habit needed to do near the lifetime one year but you need to do it.
Martin O'Toole 44:51
Yeah, as you say it is all in the action. And there is this. There's been research done about about learning hasn't yet have, you can learn, you know, something intellectually, but until you actually put it into practice, it's a it's a deeper kind of learning. While there
Made Janur Yasa 45:07
is a numbers actually to remember a move, you need to repeat 100 Time 100 Time. And people said, well, there's a lot of repetition. Well think about it. If you just pick up plastic three times a day, no more than that five time, that's great. That's a bonus. So in one month, you pick up 90 time. So you remember the move to get it in your muscle memory, want us in time, to become like embodied? You know, so your second nature 10,000 time. So to be
Martin O'Toole 45:42
a plastic master with 10,000.
Made Janur Yasa 45:47
This is the argument that I heard all the time. Or in Bali long time ago, people put a banana leaf they throw it, now they put plastic they throw it Yes. We need to change the move, you know, whatever that you put in their hand, this is the move. This has been 10,000 time. So the move now is from throwing to picking and separation. Yeah, yeah, because there is two kinds of garbage, organic, non organic. If you mix this and there's no value, the one that can be compost cannot break down because of the plastic and the plastic that has value, you cannot sell it because it's mix. So just by separating this two, already massive and I don't know if you know 60 To 70 percents that go to the landfill as organic.
Julia Malcolmson 46:43
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 46:46
Which is also crazy because there is there's a relatively new organisation here as well it's called Urban compost Have you come across those guys so it's there.
Made Janur Yasa 46:54
So I have a perfect solution for the for the organic. So we call it in barley we call it tuber moderen Teber is like in Bali if you look at the Bali compound, there is a place for the temple and then place where we live and then place where we throw our organics garbage. But now that place where we throw the organic garbage is called tebe tebe is not exist anymore because you know people building a villa people has more kids and now that land is no not valuable anymore. So what we do is we make like a septic tank, like a big hole on the ground and with the lids and we just put all organic matter over there. So if you live like four people in a compound take six months to fill that that one hole so you need to have to haul the other one once this hole number one is full and then you go to hole number two for six months after six months this is already become compost you harvested. Yep. So the beauty of this no transportation, no central places and again decentralise. I mean think about all this cryptocurrency now what what is this is decentralised the bank right? And I want to mimic that process. centralised thing is done. Didn't work. It didn't work. If it worked, it was already solved the problem decentralised so this is going to be if you have four people in your house we have four employees
Martin O'Toole 48:38
as the right way to think about it. Yeah, your little Corporation Yeah, family is a corporation with four employees
Made Janur Yasa 48:44
with foreign employees that and then they will change their habit. Now the kid know where the organics goes,
Martin O'Toole 48:52
yeah. And it is as simple as that. And of course, we because we do we do some or we have done some volunteer work with a an organisation called Alou food forest. And actually, the chap who came on our podcast is a guy called Evan grilling. He founded it. And he's very keen to educate people on the concepts of permaculture. Yep. And one of the primary fundamentals, if you like with Permaculture is to start making your own soil soil is life. Exactly. And of course, so many people don't even consider it that you throw that banana skin away, you throw that that banana leaf away, you throw all of that organic stuff away. Actually, if you turn that into compost, and you can turn that into life, you can start growing your own food in your in your garden,
Julia Malcolmson 49:38
I think all those seeds that you're throwing away or the seeds and if they if they land in another organic space, they are going to grow but when they end up in a landfill they won't.
Made Janur Yasa 49:48
Well that's that's what happened when I was a kid. You know, in on the back of my house. We just you know after we eat durian we just throw it over there. And suddenly five years ago like later Like, oh, wow
Martin O'Toole 50:00
is loaded.
Made Janur Yasa 50:02
I didn't even know it exists there, you know, or jackfruit or RamBhutan, it's happened just like that, you know. But again, now that space is no longer valuable. And we can make this whole again, you know, and we have several villages that already done this. And its success.
Martin O'Toole 50:23
Not to, as you say, you don't wish to send any blame anywhere else. But what you guys are doing is phenomenal in terms of dealing with a problem. But of course, the problems are symptomatic, aren't they? And so, what do you where do you think that some of that responsibility lies in terms of all of this plastic? You know, should? Should we be lobbying government? Or should we be lobbying the plastics companies to say, Look, guys, we've got X million people on this on this island, we need to drink water, that's a thing we need to drink bottled water, because we know that drink was coming out of the wells. So can you help us somehow with this, you know, can we stop doing single year? Can we stop using single use plastic bottles? For example, can we start using single use sachets for for household cleaning products? Now appreciate there's a market for it, because of course, people don't have a lot of money. So people will buy single it here, you actually see single use washing powder. And all of this stuff is this stuff that's then ended up in the in the rivers and in the in the landfill, and so on and so forth. So how can we work with the plastics manufacturers? And perhaps the government to somehow reduce this?
Made Janur Yasa 51:41
Well, you know, again, this is a complex and multi layers kind of situation, you know, and I think, like I said, you know, we all have our own fire, you know, this is my fire to EDU action, to educate people to action. And this is neither political power or political. What you call this intervention intervention, which is, I don't have that. No, you know, and I can only hope, you know, that. Government. I mean, we seen this in all over the world, you know, like, India banned plastic. I went back to 19. Yeah, I went to Proscar. They just said, No more plastic. And once you do that, you know, the people who's making the decision, which is the government, we need to reinforce this. Exactly. You know, that's the negative consequences and need to be implemented. Otherwise, it's become against, you know, it's just a law, just the law. It just the cognitive knowledge, not the embodiment knowledge. Yeah. Right. So I see it a lot. It's the same thing, you know, law, you have make a law, just the head, but the body needs to follow through.
Martin O'Toole 53:02
It needs to be supported. Well, that's a good point. Actually. I, we I suppose we were very fortunate because we come from the UK, which is, I think even back in the 70s we started a campaign a national campaign that said you can't drop litter we call trash litter. Yeah, not drop litter anymore. And in the UK, now, if you get caught dropping litter on the street, you can have an on the spot fine from a policeman 80 pounds at about $100 in Singapore. Now in Hong Kong. 1500 Hong Kong dollars, which is what 150 euros Yeah.
Julia Malcolmson 53:38
California, it's like 1000 US dollars, or 5000
Martin O'Toole 53:41
US dollars. So it's it's been enforced. And in Singapore, you can even go to prison. Yeah. And that is being enforced. So and I know that don't get me wrong. I'm very conscious not to say oh, it's they've got it all worked out in the west. You know, there's lots of things wrong. Yeah. But I think one thing we did do a few years ago was work out to a great extent the trash problem, but it was down to enforcement, as you say, and the government do enforce it, you can if you spit chewing gum in in certain places, you can be fined or you can even be locked up in a jail.
Julia Malcolmson 54:13
I remember in England when you would drive down the motorway so that's like our, our main highways, and people would just throw litter out their car then. I mean, this was it's better now. And there's been a lot of campaigns of education, to say to people, please don't do that because it costs us this much money to clear it up, but it's
Martin O'Toole 54:31
not going to rot.
Made Janur Yasa 54:32
Well, here's the thing, you know, he did fine, the law and all of this. It's all come down to action. Think about it. It's all come down to action. I'm not going to throw this because I will get fine. Because through the action, they're not throwing it. That was changed the habit. Absolutely. So so to reinforce people take action, this man Many ways, one is through fine. One is through law. For me, I give them positive reward, hey, come bring your trust will feed you
Julia Malcolmson 55:13
so much better.
Martin O'Toole 55:14
You know, it's a no brainer,
Made Janur Yasa 55:15
but it's in many ways to to help people take action, you know, and for us all I just have to go from and to do this. Yes. And then everybody will like, you know, and one, one of my background is Aikido, which is the martial arts is Harmonix Qi is lifeforce, do it the way, you know. And again, you know, I put this into practice through plastic exchange, you know, we can shame people throw the plastic, we can find people do this, but for me, like, let's do this together. Let's do this in more Ikki way, in a more flowing way, you know, the sense of community and love and community and love. And when also I said when people do plastic exchange, there's four four guiding principle in plastic exchange number one is not need to be led by community death community. So if you can make it smaller community like like house, you need to clean your own house, I'm not gonna go to your house to clean your house, you need to do it. Second one needs to be kiss. Keep it simple and sweet. You know, at the complicated, people will not do it. We all love convenience. Why plastic is so pre Madonna, because it's cheap, strong last long.
Martin O'Toole 56:43
You know, and it's part of that convenience culture.
Made Janur Yasa 56:46
It's convenient, we love convenient, who doesn't love convenience. Yeah, the third one is inward outward. If you want to clean the environment, clean your house, do not start from the environment. If you cannot clean your house, you cannot clean the environment. So this is again in the philosophy, like if you want to change the world, change yourself. And then the third one is accountability. You know, people give you rice, you know, money in money out price in rice out, you need to record this. And then the other three thing that you need to record is the core value. Dignity, who's coming? Prosperity, how much rice you give away? And then how much plastic Do you collect? Which is the environment? So that's how we do it?
Martin O'Toole 57:40
Well it is it is kiss in that regard. Keep it. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Keep it simple. Always kiss just one s. Two s was trying to work out with you the rest of us but sweet. Oh, simple and sweet. And smart. Yeah, keep it
Julia Malcolmson 57:58
makes so much sense. It does. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 58:01
What have you got? A
Julia Malcolmson 58:03
I had little fires burning when you were speaking? Like, oh, well, maybe, maybe I can do this. And maybe I can do that. Like those are little things like popping up?
Martin O'Toole 58:11
Well, I think the reality is, you need the whole ecosystem to come to work around you, don't you? Because I what you're doing is absolutely amazing. There's no doubt about it. And it's and it is simple and sweet. But it's a great idea. And it's working. We can see it's working. But you need support. And you and you need support from everyone in that system. Yes. And that so that is the people and I think you've got the people working with you in the system. You need tourists to start pulling their weight and stop dumping trash. How we can even stop 70 tonnes a day coming on to cuter beach Legion beach in Seminyak beach when a lot of that trash is actually coming from Java. I don't know. So, you know, a little plea to the Indonesia can you possibly help with what's going on in Java? And I think you do need help from the plastics manufacturers. I saw a real shocking story during this research and it was a sperm whale washed up in an Indonesian nature reserve and it died. And so they opened it up and it had six kilogrammes of plastic inside it. And amidst six kilogrammes there were 115 single use ackward unknown cups yeah aside one sperm Well, one sperm whale and obviously we know that that channel we have an awful lot of sentient swimming.
Julia Malcolmson 59:40
For our listeners. Aqua is kind of like the main water bottled water supplier in Bali and most people in Bali drink bottled water. Yeah, because we can't drink the tap water. So it's a lot of plastic.
Made Janur Yasa 59:53
Well the other thing that also we do a plastic actually, you know and against, you know, plastic casting just the tip of the iceberg. What I say you'd like to dignity prosperity environments. Edge action, you know, and we we draw from Balinese wisdom. You know we have a community, we have three heater Karana we have Taqwa mercy, we have sad cacti, I mean, all of this. It just become a slogan. It's become a good on a Hallmark card. How can we make this pragmatic? This wisdom become a pragmatic? And the norm was? Yeah. So and then if we do this over and over, it's become a normal? Yeah, you know, because now what is luck is an action. That's what luck, you know? And then who to blame ourselves? You mean, you know? And again, I'm doing this plastic exchange. I'm not anti plastic. No, I'm not anti plastic, because plastic has a place. Yeah. What I'm really after is like, how do we responsible after we use it? If we can just do that for now? Yeah, then that would be a positive step. That's a positive step. And then we talk about reduce, reuse, recycle. So I always said this plastic exchange it kind of like this a baby. I know this baby gonna run marathon. I cannot talk about marathon to this baby. No, no, you
Martin O'Toole 1:01:26
break his little, little heart and mind. I only have little legs.
Made Janur Yasa 1:01:29
Yeah, I can do that. Oh my god, you know, like, no, no, just eat this food. Yes, do this. You know. So, reduce, reuse, recycle. Yes. It's the goal. But if you don't understand how you even dispose it after use it. How can you really understand to reduce, reuse, recycle? Absolutely. So it's almost like this. I always said this list like enlightenment bypass? Yeah. You need to do your work before you get to the recycle, reuse and reduce. You need to do your work. Were just like, oh, it's plastic in my hand. What should I do with this?
Martin O'Toole 1:02:09
Yeah, and I have a responsibility. Yes, I decided to buy this. And of course, that's the point, isn't it? Could you decide not to buy some of those products? Yes, of course you could. Do you need the sweets that come in single use? Yeah, but no, you don't actually you've got the jungle has got lots of sweets called durian and Jack? Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's, there's certainly that aspect of responsibility that we can all take. And that's got nothing to do with government or the plastics.
Made Janur Yasa 1:02:41
So this this step, you know, for people to aware, that's a step you can use. Why do you do you do know where? Well you never teach me how to be aware? Yeah, you know, what, why did you understand? You never teach me how to be understanding is bliss. Yeah, the first one you need to attend to, you know, I tend to this plastic. Now people understand, oh, plastic has a value. So they were because from the from the from attend to, and then you aware from the web, and then you have a choice. Either pick it up, or just leave it? You know, and then you have a result from what you do. And then again, go back again. You know, awareness is not just happen. It's needed a process to get people to be aware. One of the things that to make people aware for me, is through a reward. Yeah, so now they are seeing plastic. Oh, it's plastic, they attend to the awareness of plastic. They already have a choice. Should I just leave it there? Or should I pick it up?
Martin O'Toole 1:03:48
And what will I get if I pick it up with you? You'll be fed.
Made Janur Yasa 1:03:51
Yeah, exactly. So and again, it's you know, there's a process forget people understand there's a process for people to take action. For us. We already understand why don't you understand? Well, have you ever tried to teach me how, you know, this? The The thing is, like, with the kid calm down and like, teach me how,
Julia Malcolmson 1:04:13
yeah, yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:04:14
Yeah, we actually had a, we had a kid's yoga teacher on the show a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about this very thing, how it's all well and good for a parent to say, be quiet. Yeah. Or calm. As you say, calm down, calm yourself.
Julia Malcolmson 1:04:28
What do you mean? What do you mean? What is that?
Martin O'Toole 1:04:30
Teach me how to self regulate, please, what do you say, Oh, actually, I'm not self regulating. Example,
Julia Malcolmson 1:04:38
assumes everything. There's a process and you've got to start at the beginning. And if you try and start at the end, you're not going to do it because you freak out. And it's too much.
Martin O'Toole 1:04:46
It's a mountain, isn't it? Yeah.
Made Janur Yasa 1:04:48
And like you said, you know, there's a lot of descending from Java, all of this plastic and all of that. You know, if I think about that, I'm going to be parallel as well. Why should I do this then? There's going to be, there's not, it doesn't matter what I do not going to make a difference. But I believe what I do will make a difference. So now we start in Bali, and I want to start in Bali and success and later on, bring it to Java, bring it to Lombok, bring it to the different island, but let's make it success in Bali. And then the people in Java just going to be like here, copy and paste. Now, here's the core value, this is what you do. And you action. This is how you do it. This is how you work with the sponsor, or this is how you get people involved. You don't have to think anymore. Not don't have to think but like not inventing the wheels. Just follow the process. Follow the process. It's been proven. Yeah. So yeah, it's a process. It's not gonna happen next year, and all of that, but I hope I die happy knowing it will spread.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:59
I suspect One thing's for sure you have created something that will be your legacy. And I think this isn't going away what you've created. I think you've you've sparked a fire in a lot of
Julia Malcolmson 1:06:12
people. And it's really gaining
Made Janur Yasa 1:06:13
legacy for the whole island. Yes, obviously. No, not just for me, but the whole island, the Bali people, the Indonesian, Southeast Asia, Asia, you know, you know, we we all can create this,
Julia Malcolmson 1:06:26
can I ask how do you get the word out, though, into Bali? So obviously, a lot of this, this is happening in villages. So how are you getting the villages involved? Or how, how are you spreading the word?
Made Janur Yasa 1:06:38
Well, here's the thing, you know, I call it smart growth. So I start with one village. And then when the success the next village, we like, how, what do you do over there? You know, like, I want to do it too, you know, like, then that's how it's spread. Now. It's just like, I have 50 villages behind me, like, when, when can we start in our village? And I said, Give me that crazy people. And then we'll start. I love that.
Julia Malcolmson 1:07:05
I love that. Because then they are actually actively asking and wanting to do it. They're not being advised or told. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:07:15
Well, this is this is one of those subjects we could talk to you about for hours. I'm conscious, we are trying to keep up to round an hour now. And would you believe we talked for an hour and eight minutes already.
Julia Malcolmson 1:07:28
But as you said, we could keep going?
Martin O'Toole 1:07:30
We could. But perhaps let's just to finish on a on a positive. So you've given us an idea of of the plan, you know, how you how you'd like to roll this out? What's the roadmap, if you got a if you've got a defined roadmap for by 2023, we'll do this and 2024 will do that. Are you surrendering to the flow?
Made Janur Yasa 1:07:51
I'm surrendering to the flow. I'm you know, of course, you know, the way we look at like, Oh, what, what's going to be in five years? What is going to be in 10 years? And I said, I don't know. You know, but what I know, we keep going. And now after two years, there is several companies actually approaching us, you know, hey, can we do this? Can we turn this plastic into a few? Can we turn this plastic into a brick? Can we you know, and I said, Yeah, let's let's do it. You know, for me, let's do it. You know, and I always said like this, you know, for the listener? Whoever the wherever you are in the world, you have your fire. Everybody has fire? Yeah, let's, let's put that fire together to make a bigger fire. Not split somebody else fire at it make it smaller. Like people ask me, How about lobbying the government? What about, you know, go to the known or this company? And I said, I don't have to fire for that. If you have the fire for it. Let's, let's let's do collaboration.
Martin O'Toole 1:09:03
Yeah. Nice. I think that's a beautiful thing. And I think what you're doing is a beautiful thing. And and even though you say in your own way you're doing it you still feeding 30,000 families in a time of economic destruction. No, they don't think barley is known anything like this for a long, long time.
Made Janur Yasa 1:09:25
30,000 people for two years. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Not just one time.
Julia Malcolmson 1:09:31
so, inspiring.
Martin O'Toole 1:09:32
Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks very much to your home.
Julia Malcolmson 1:09:37
Thank you, Janur. It's been wonderful.
Martin O'Toole 1:09:39
Absolutely. Thanks for making the drive to its absolute pleasure. Swasti St. Sandy Shanti. We call it Shanti Shanti Shanti and Dom's, which was the
Made Janur Yasa 1:09:49
sauce they asked us at the beginning. So it's like, good to be in the same place. Same time. That's
Martin O'Toole 1:09:57
kind of what I meant. But actually, but I can't say that at the beginning of our of our meeting then. Okay, so
Made Janur Yasa 1:10:02
you say so as the as to at the beginning and then you say Shanti Shanti. Okay, time Yeah, I
Martin O'Toole 1:10:07
know we sing it. Yeah.
Made Janur Yasa 1:10:08
Do you know why? Yeah. I don't know why no Shanti you know, like means peace. So in Bali, there's three world, the Boer War. And so, you know, when you sing the guy, Oh boo boo versa. So there's three worlds actually that exists at spontaneously. The bore is the underworld. Why is where we live. And so I swear to god and goddesses, so we say three time Shanti Jana underworld Santi in this world and Santi in god and goddesses all of this need to be in harmony cannot be just Santi in this world, but the underworld is not Sunday. Or you know, I mean the imbalance need to be Sunday in in all of this world.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:54
So we have to say om Shanti Shanti Shanti. I got nothing else to say. Thank you. Thank you
