SUMMARY KEYWORDS
gaslighting, realise, victim, relationship, person, point, absolutely, love, women, narcissist, called, living, meet, gaslight, good, people, great, toxic relationships, life, situation
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Josh Campbell, Julia Malcolmson
Martin O'Toole 00:27
Josh, if you had five minutes left to live, what would be on your list of deathbed regrets? Right? Okay, so projecting right to the future. I've that's like, hopefully, given that I've done three more quarter centuries more up to about 100.
Josh Campbell 00:47
Right now, okay, this is difficult to project forward. So I like to sort of take as, as my human design, I'm quite a creative free flow, sort of passive, what they call the passive manifester. I don't get to attach the things to kind of set an intention allow it to come. So for me, that's why that's I lean into that nature of mine. So I don't like to kind of define what I will regret. But given that I do get to that point, I will just say, connecting the dots of my past, like really going into that I want to know my story at the deepest level that I can possibly meet. I've done my own inner child work, but it's there's so much more to discover about how I'm the person I am today. Yeah. Now, I would like to have the courage to really go into the traumatic incidents I've gone through to some extent, you know, sometimes we like to bypass our own stories, because we hear on the news, the most tragic incidences, and sometimes we bypass our own stories, although they could be equally as traumatic to somebody because it's subjective. And then we bypass our own suffering. And there's so much learning that we can go through through our own suffering. And it's how willing we are to meet that shadow and that, that that trauma we'd gone through. Now, I've not gone through any like anything like, you know, sexual abuse, or, fortunately enough, no physical abuse or anything like that. But I've gone through my own form of abuse. And I'm sure like, you might, and I'm sure we've gone through our stories of lives, and we've come through those little spiritual awakenings and turned it over. But I think that regret will be one of the biggest ones like learning enough about myself to be of biggest service to others.
Martin O'Toole 02:34
Hmm, necessary. Honest of you. Yeah. It's Shadow Work is, is a big, big part of healing. Well, it's phase one, isn't it a feeling and Bali is an interesting place for that. Because you you come across a lot of people talking about spiritual bypassing, I don't even come across. Oh, yeah, yeah, big term. There. Were there are some people who, sort of where spirituality is an identity. Yes. And, and the kind of going around doing their thing, and essentially saying, I'm healed. In fact, I'm so healed, I could probably heal you. And the reality is, they haven't actually, they haven't actually done the deep work there. They've already gone got to do the spiritual, flighty phase without, and skipped and bypassed, the aspect of the Shadow Work smashed it.
Josh Campbell 03:31
And this is when people have missed the phase of fully integrating something fully embodying it fully, like transmuting their lessons and being walking the walk. And we were in a world that likes to talk and we're in a world of lots of noise and people jumping necessary steps to to get success sooner. For example, like we're seeing, you know, love Island reality TV stars who have just made it overnight with a click of the fingers and then, you know, come crashing down because they, they haven't fully prepared for what what that comes with. And in my story, I nearly got onto love Island. And luckily I didn't because I didn't think I was ready. Something inside my central nervous system was saying, Joshua, you're not ready for this buddy. Like you're ready for the toxic UK media to attack you. But it's like just just for that, that external thing that we absorb. We think that that is our means to success, even however we can get it. It's like we can come out of integrity to get it. And we're seeing it so much. But we don't see the stories behind the shallowness of living in that sort of success.
Martin O'Toole 04:37
No we don't but then we're, we are surrounded by it. So it's perfectly understandable that there are a couple of generations now who have a whole other perspective of what life is and what life should be in what identity should be and what success looks like right? Success in air quotes. I am tempted to ask you about love Island, right?
Josh Campbell 05:00
Okay, so we could we could dip into that word. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 05:03
Let's have a little walk on the beach. Tell me all about that. So what on earth got you interested in going on love Island?
Josh Campbell 05:09
No, no, it wasn't even an interest I think it was by chance and what's funny the fact that we can actually talk into the the law of manifestation Law of Attraction Uh huh. Literally, I was in a place that had gone through some, some difficult relationships that my own, I just come out of rebounded out of a relationship with my ex. I rebounded out of a couple of friendships I'd had which were what I now understand with hindsight was slightly Empath takes, you know, Empath takes the right hand side of a narcissist, you know, I got used quite a bit in that, that in that dynamic. And, and I was just thinking, I was quite a bit of a rock bottom after that moment. And I remember having my my good friend who was a director, sat across from me at a cafe and he said, you know, we were just talking about life plans. And I said, well, and I was in this egoic place, I really would have made it I was I had a brand called the Health hunk, I was kind of living through an alter ego. Yeah. And unconsciously, I will absolutely admit, this was me trying to prove something, something to the external world. And, and feeling safe within this persona. And it was something I was trying to explore and unlock. But it was not truly me. And I was still living in that space. And I said to Marco, my good friend at the time when he said, I would love to just like I would love life to just be a bit easier. I'd love something to happen like me jump onto a big whale and just explode. And if things will just be easy. I jumped the steps that we were talking about, Skip it, skip it. And and what happened that same day, we had that conversation, I had a recruiter on Instagram, pop into my DMs and she said, Hey, we love the look of you again, it's all persona it's how you look. This is it health uncle had the little brand that had the smile had the you know, the the washboard abs and all that they were all perfect. You look great for our show. Yeah. Deep down, I knew I was more deeper than that. I'm an empath. I was emotional guy. But I thought okay, let's write this way. They they called me into the UK went to meet the directors and ITV pretty scary stuff. You know, you had seen anthem deck on the side of the walls as I was going through the corridors, it was like, it was like a, it was pretty scary. Got me in this thrown at, you know, in this interview room, a big, you know, TV style camera in front of my face. And they grilled me there, you know, a couple of questions like what, you know, what you're doing in Bali, and sort of explained what I was up to, and they were trying to just grill me to see if I was able to be impressed and, and and was able to be manipulated for their show. Fortunately, enough, I got a, you know, I walked out with went home, walked out of that interview and found out that I'd never made it. So it was good. They just didn't make the cast. But to get to that stage, I think is the top 100. I went through the psychotherapy, tree interviews, I went through a lot of stuff to get there. And like better do psychometric testing, do they? This is it. Exactly. I mean, I got it was just a one size fits all couple of questions. And I think they just sent empaths and I asked a couple of questions to them. I said, Do you have any space where I can just I said, Is there any space to get away from the cameras being a rabbit in headlights with this kind of like George Orwellian sort of authoritarian state within, you know, within this sort of bubble of reality TV? I said, Is there any escape from it? And they said, No, you know, you'll be covered every which way you have cameras in the toilets that they don't televise but just for your own safety, because there was there were suicides from previous shows why attempts or actual actual suicides? Was it Caroline Flack, that's just I think her anniversary just passed. Wow, she was the presenter of it. And she know that it was from the UK media because it's super toxic. But But the issue was, I was so building up to that whole interview process. My central nervous system was saying Joshua and tuition was saying, just this isn't for you. My family was kind of accepted on my dad's sort of front face and he doesn't mind my mum and my family are quite closed off. And they they're quite sensitive. They just didn't want this kind of like public. Yeah, you would you would be on the front page of the tabloids on a regular basis when he says the problem and I didn't, I'm a little bit out of touch. In reality, I'm 46 that was reality TV was never my vibe. And I've been out of the UK for a few years now. So but I'm assuming that's that's the case. If people are literally their lives are torn apart. I mean, this is the thing you're not empowered if you outsource, you know, they have so much power to create something that you're not and they want you to be something you're supposed to be a persona, a persona. And lots of people accept that and live in this surface level environment you know they're not met themselves in Their depth because they you know, it's it's a place where they can thrive you know, they're monetarily provided for lots of opportunity comes off the back end of those shows, and they accept their fate and they're young, naive kind of people that haven't had the the deep dark naive to the mental health difficulties that they can can come with it naive to the fact that you know, it's a lot you're putting on the plate day you're you're sacrificing a lot. And it takes a lot to turn it all over. I've got a good friend and Chengdu and barley at the moment, he was on the first show one of the first shows and I think he did really well because he's got a tough skin. It will do well on the the the after talk shows and things and he sort of like really embraced that persona. But it seems like now he's coming out of it in a way so it is turned around double and it's all figured out a ball as they say, but it's it was a I was saved by the bell for sure not getting on that show and then I met jazz which opened up my Who was your wife my life partner now so I'm really happy about that. So again, how can we define life partner as well? Like I'd love to ask you is like setting expectations upon someone that you meet? Yeah in life and it's like it's an all or nothing marriage that you have to be all in on whatever pursuit and I know we're dividends with relationships now. It's like it's all or nothing because if I show any signs of like uncertainty it froze the whole relationship off doesn't it? It's kind of like well, you need to really commit to things that are truthfully you when it's better to kind of come into alignment first. To make that journey a little bit more on regrettable as it were. Yeah, I I agree. I've actually got two ex wives. Wow. Wow. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 11:48
So I mean, the listeners of the show have heard my story. I mean, I love I love a high level overview for sure. Yeah, yeah, my my. I grew up in a in a quite traumatic household. My mother was an alcoholic. Yes, my dad was away working all the time. So so the first eight years my formative years were born of trauma. And my self worth and concept of of self love. Were all absolutely twisted my relationship with womankind, my mother, and mankind, my father, were also twisted born out of an unfortunate childhood. So yeah, I just like the remember the Tasmanian devil cartoon to remember that maybe not. Yes, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that guy I just, I just flew from one drama to another, either co created or someone else's. And I just flocked to them. And I stood up even more drama, through a few hand grenades over my shoulder on the way out, and then on to the next drama, left a trail of destruction. Emotionally injured, a significant number of people. See, you can usually be an internal iser who tries to figure out and self reflect and figure it out, you know, be the harmonizer in those relationships and those difficult situations. Or you can be the externalising, which turns to drugs, turns to projections turns to sort of blaming everything around them in their external world. Yeah, so I was a full on narcissist. I was drinking using drugs. He became an alcoholic and a cocaine addict. So for probably a good 20 years, I was hard, hard drinking using Coke. I celebrated my fourth year sober last week actually.
Josh Campbell 13:43
Congratulations, mate. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 13:45
So and of course, as you will know, most people will say, it's interesting. You should say you are a narcissist, because most narcissists don't know they're narcissists. There's covert narcissist, too. That exists. Yeah.
Josh Campbell 14:01
It is a very tricky domain to to to walk through. But I think narcissists, too can turn it around. It takes again, like a spiritual awakening. It's kind of like they're just willfully unaware. Yeah, well, I think there's a there's a willful on awareness. But there was also I, for me, there was an awareness, there was awareness of my Machiavellian behaviour. I was, I was a cheat. I was. I was an emotional bully. And I was very, very addicted to drama. So I would use if you come across Carmen's Drama Triangle, I haven't know please explain. Yeah, you come across transactional theory analysis, and you know, hope no, there's a need to me.
Martin O'Toole 14:40
Okay, well, this will lead to good practical utility, so I'll talk about them. I think there's a psychologist called Burn who created transactional theory analysis, you'll come across the concept essentially, sure. When we interact with one another, we can adopt one of three main personas, parent, adult All child. So if I come at someone else with my parent, adult or child, so if I come up with and patronising patronising them, there's a danger they might respond to me in like a child in a child. Okay, so So all authoritarian victim. Exactly. So this one is the persecutor, this one is the victim essentially, and plays the victim as a result of that. If I come at someone as a child, then they may well also be childish. So we're just going to have a tit for tat discussion. Or they might patronise me, which is also going to trigger something. So the end it is really basic, obviously, do some homework on this. Yeah, there's a lot more in the west side, sort of gang signs that I'll give it. I'm giving you the really easy version of this. But essentially, the therefore the advice is, well hang on a minute if we can come at this as a parent as an adult. Yeah, always then how does that work? Well, if we're an adult, doesn't mean we're patronising because the parent is a pattern. So as an adult, we are we are calm, we are collected, we listen. We hold space, right? So if I can do that, even if you are triggered, because you might be triggered by me being calm, I've I've had relationships with narcissistic women who were triggered by me being calm. Absolutely. But if I stay calm, then at least I'm doing all I can in that arrangement to to maintain some peace and quiet. Yes, so anyway, long story burn out a student called Cartman and Cartman was inspired by this to create something called Cartman Drama Triangle. And it's a wonderful theory. Really simple. Again, I've got a camera behind me. So three sides to drama, there are three main personas adopted in drama, you can either be the persecutor, the victim, or the rescuer.
Josh Campbell 16:46
Interesting, yeah, well, that. Yeah. I would agree with that. And I think going back to your theory of parent, adult child, is that funnily enough, in our relationships, we kind of need to hold space for our inner child, children, those kids that live within us, but we can't adopt the parent mentality. Again, like you say, you've got to meet that child with with your adult exam. Because you can't do that work for your partner, you can't mother or father is it just it's not a romantic dynamic at all, you will lose your sexual charge, you will lose, you outsource a lot of your power. And your your empowered stance in the relationship just kind of dissipates, you kind of become the caretaker and that's not okay. So we've kind of balance as well, is that equilibrium, isn't it? It's kind of like accepting that those are within us. But it's like not letting it run the show. And it's, I'd love to go back to your like, this is like a high level view of your life. And I'd like seeing who you are today. I'm like, how it actually happened. I really like how you've turned it around,
Martin O'Toole 17:47
it was the transformational part. Yeah, well, it was it was an extreme form of transformation. I said back to the triangle for a moment, I would, I would often either be the persecutor or I would play the victim. Right, in a real an emotion, in a romantic relationship, I was usually playing the victim and, and therefore drawing my partner into the drama. And some of that was knowing, you know, some of that was knowing activity. So it was very, very intelligent narcissism. And my, I actually started to have some therapy and my therapist congratulated me in a, in a kind of clinical way. Right, right. For my ability to do some of these things, not not so much the narcissism it was more around protecting myself. But this is this is traditional, masculine to like, I've been reading Robert Greene's books, and it's all about the 48 Laws of Power and the art of seduction. And I sometimes get these like chills down my spine when I read those seductive hacks. But it's what we used to use as like Chinese Empire Emperor has taken over territory, or Cleopatra to he uses Cleopatra and Julius Caesar how she seduced him as the same thing, it is a game you can play with a very unconscious game, but it's kind of like conscious unconsciousness. It's like you, it's very clever. It is and you know, you're doing it. And even when people everybody knows they're doing this on a level, but of course, it could be subconscious. It could even be real subconscious unconscious stuff, right? But they do know they're doing it. And intuitively, we know we're doing it because our intuition does speak to us. It's just that we don't, ego is so strong in this sort of situation that you don't want to hear your intuition. Your intuition is going to mess with the game material. But more importantly, it's going to mess with your control. And this is the nature of narcissism, you know, nature of narcissists. They are traditionally and I'm speaking gently in general terms, they are traditionally people who were neglected or abused or experienced some trauma as a child, and they had to To create a new construct around them to protect this fragile thing here. Interesting. And so in my, in my situation, it was obviously my childhood with my mum, I was constantly seeking intimacy from my mum, but I've rarely got it. I see your mum was neglectful parenting exactly because she was drunk. So she would spend a lot of time in her bedroom with a couple of bottles of wine. And it was a is a very sad thing to experience as a small child because I could, I could hear her either ranting drunk at herself rang or crying, you know, the woman would just sob just for hours. And I could hear that. And I knew she'd have these two big bottles of wine because she would take us to the off licence on the way home from school, pick up the wine, pick up a load of cigarettes, and, you know, we'd get fed, we wouldn't get fed. And she would she just the poor woman would just sit in his bedroom all night, just just getting absolutely hammered. And just feeling his pain. And I wanted to go and, you know, that's what little boys want to do with their moms, isn't it? You know, I wanted to give her a hug. But there was just this sort of energetic barrier. And of course, I wanted to home because I'm seeing this, and six are far off, you know, whatever age I was, because this was my whole life seeing this happen with my mom and I wanted, I needed a hug, you know, hang on a minute, my dad's not around, because he's working. And he's just kind of not available emotionally anyway. And my mom's here, so, so So and this is what happens to us. This is this is what creates narcissism, because actually, ultimately, we are poor little, we were wounded in our children. And we need to control our environment, that
Josh Campbell 21:43
your needs, your needs just weren't met. And you're meeting it in a way that was probably quite manufactured and artificial, because you didn't know what was true. You weren't shown what was true, true love with through your parents. Exactly that. And now How is your relationship with your mom now? Have you kind of just moved on? Have you just how did you deal?
Martin O'Toole 22:01
Well, it's interesting, you said, so this, this really was the triggering to, to my self awareness. She died. And she died in 2014. And we'd had we'd had a miserable, open down a tempestuous, tempestuous relationship because she even as a young adult, I would still make the effort come round on Mother's Day with the flowers and my dad, it comes to Doris, she's drunk. I'm so sorry. All right. Okay, give them give her those, you know, I'd go. So it became you became a really strained relationship where I didn't like her. Okay, no, yeah, I loved her. But I didn't like her. And, and I have to sort of let her go in that regard. And we never really had the conversations we should have had, you know, we never had that where I was, I wasn't this guy. Now. I was still wounded, and still incapable of communicating my, my emotions, right? And she was she, she died that way. And so that was after that was that was our family. Unfortunately, nobody was nobody was any good at communicating their emotions. So when she died, I, I, I hit the bottle, I hit the drugs even further. Self harmed, put my head through a window. And not long after that almost killed myself. Gosh, and that wasn't to do wasn't because my mom died. It was it. That her dying brought it all up to the surface, where and I had a girlfriend at the time who was much younger than me and tried her best, but she couldn't help me. You know? Yeah, she couldn't help me this day. Because I had to I went in I went even deeper into the, into the castle. I see. And actually because she couldn't help me. I then decided she can't help me. And some another woman started paying some attention to me.
Josh Campbell 23:55
And which which women were you're attracting at that moment?
Martin O'Toole 23:58
Oh, well, this was on Twitter. Man. This was this was this was ridiculous as a total stranger who just wanted sexual gratification. sexual attention. Sure. And anyway, the long story short, the girl I was with actually discovered the communications. And it wasn't pretty, you know? I mean, this was this was dark dark stuff. Sure. So and rightly she was you know,
Josh Campbell 24:24
she forgave the communications of your
Martin O'Toole 24:26
sexual communications with another woman another one. Okay. Yeah, so it was pretty dark. And through that, period, I want to once I'd been rumbled by this partner, you know, I had to accept I had a problem there was it was at that point I realised hang on a minute, I've been cheating my whole damn life. I've been a narcissist my whole damn life have been playing the victim. I've been attracting drama, my whole damn life. And suddenly I can it took stock and realise you know what, you've got all of these broken relationships everywhere. Yeah, or back there. everywhere. Are you seriously telling me that you're not the only common denominator?
Josh Campbell 25:06
Yes.
Martin O'Toole 25:07
And the answer was, You are the common denominator. And it's time for you to start taking stock of that. Now don't get me wrong. This takes a lot of humility, though to even admit it even in your past. Well, I was I was a rock bottom, but uh, you know, I nearly nearly blew my brains out and a loaded shotgun in my mouth. I had a bottle of gin in my stomach, and I was literally about to pull the trigger and my Beagle came into the room, kick the door open little puppy as well. And she just basically said, what's for dinner? Dick head? Is that what you? Did she just come in? And luckily, what'd she do? She let your face so what? She's tiny. She's no, she stood in the door. I'll never forget it. Because it was such. I don't know, it's like a movie moment. You know, I'm literally with a gun and look to and cry. And obviously some of that to kill myself. And she just sort of, you know, a door comes open the light, because there wasn't hardly any light in this room. The light from the kitchen comes in this little puppy just sitting there. And she's looking at me. And you know, I believe that dog was a was a an angel in Africa. And I believe that dogs was that was put there to stop me doing that. And this is the I think the relationship that's beautiful. So the relationship to beauty gets you out of your darkest moments. Absolutely. It does. Right. And that was your awakening wasn't it was just like, okay, life is worth living for a tiny amount. Well, it was a long journey. And that is something I've talked about bits and bits of this on the show. And I always say, very, very keen to point out to people listen, because back to the conversation, we were having shadow work sucks. Shadow Work is really tough. It is not it's not just two words. And it's not just, oh, yeah, I'll do my shadow work. And then I'll get on with my enlightenment. No, that's not how it works. It's It's fucking awful. And it can it can it can last years
Josh Campbell 26:55
is a journey, isn't it? Yeah, it is.
Martin O'Toole 26:57
And it's a different speed for everyone. Right? That's the other thing.
Josh Campbell 27:00
Exactly. Yes. It's like, I think sometimes we like to radicalise our lives. So we can kind of like, you know, it's okay. To funny braid to make it story. We like to do the same thing as like, we want to make our suffering so deep that we have something to actually work on. Sometimes. We do. We're addicted to it. We're like you said, Yeah, we're addicted to that we're addicted to the pain. And it's like you said, you're really push the limit. To the pain. That then enough is enough. It's kind of like, you know, it's kind of like you're finally aware that you were digging your own hole.
Martin O'Toole 27:35
Yeah. Exactly. That well, and also I actually became tired of it. You know, the interesting thing about suffering is, is choice. Buddha said Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, but it was Buddha, right? The Buddha, Allah Buddha, dudes knew exactly what they were they were doing and what they were saying. We, I think, skipping to addiction for a moment, addiction, people talk about addiction being a disease. And not to, not to criticise that, but to, I suppose to, to, to add to that, for me, addiction is a symptom of something else. Diseases is two words put together isn't it is dis ease. So addiction is an evidence of disease, but it's a symptom of trauma. And us addicts. And when I say us addicts, you know, I don't just mean the people in the crack dens and the people, the homeless people injecting heroin. I mean, people who need to use a bottle of white wine to regulate or people who need cocaine on a Friday night should be unhealthy avenues, like people can get really obsessed with the gym or you know, you know, take eating disorders, you know, luckily that this is this is untapped or tech, you know, I mean, you know, there is tech addiction is a real thing. If you're constantly doing that you've got a problem. So, the point being the addicts, the symptoms are all trauma, they're all symptomatic of trauma, and they're all there a way of distracting externalising what you say is like getting away so so one way of doing that is to is to dig deeper into more suffering. How shall I distract myself from doing the shadow work? Yeah, well, I'm just going to hurt myself more. And I'm going to hurt some other people in the in the in the whilst I'm doing that. And I of course I have no idea consciously that I'm doing that. That's my ego at play. Consciousness is trying like hell to battle through this murky pool of of shitty water that it's been trained to swim through for 40 odd years but ego is so damn strong the currents just pushing consciousness away. So a long answer to a short question was, is that essentially what happened? After my mom died I started to see a therapist I said to the therapist, do me a favour, explore In the science, I'm a pragmatist. So if you explain the science to me, I'm gonna get it. So I tell you something, then you can explain to me why I'm doing I'm quite logical just as as what many horses is probably tend to adopt to well, it's still, it's the emotional aspect of control if you think about it, but it was positive, because it was it was trying to get myself into a situation where I could finally heal. And ultimately, I knew that that meant I would stop hurting other people. Because that was the primary driver here, you know, my mom died. And I was unable to tell her that I loved her. And I was unable to, to have these conversations with her like I have on this podcast every week. And she was unable to communicate with me. And even if I did attempt every once in a while to talk to her, because I did try to talk to her and my dad after I started having therapy. Just Stonewall, you know, I might as well the men speak in Mandarin, they just didn't want to communicate on that level. They were incapable.
Josh Campbell 30:55
They're neglectful, they, you know, it's just like a crying baby. So you know, there's four, four approaches to it. You know, it seems like both of them were absolutely neglectful. That's the way they can go with it. They're either passive, or lack full, emotional, which is very, like rubber band, like a they'll use you to comfort themselves or distance themselves and avoid you. And one minute you know, it's kind of like bipolar in its own way. And then driven parents or like, authoritarian regime, but it didn't seem like you had that emotional, potentially, but maybe passive and neglectful. They were passive and bless them. My dad's still alive. And you might even be listen to this, this episode. So hi, Dad, love you.
Martin O'Toole 31:39
I don't blame them. And I don't blame them. Because I've learned enough about psychology. And about epigenetics. Yeah. Which for anyone who's listening doesn't understand essentially, it's, it's that we learn this stuff through our genes as much as we learn it through our conditioning. So this debate over nature versus nurture, it's kind of no longer the debate it once was, because we now know that actually, the trauma, trauma is passed on through our genetics, of course, so and I know that my mum's mother was a drinker. And I suspect probably the parent before was a drinker. We're from an Irish and Scottish nation. So you know, that kind of and Catholic. And, and, you know, Catholicism is Catholicism, it's a highly oppressive, pretty terrifying religion, where, depending on how old you are, you were you were either having the Old Testament stuff down your throat, or at least the New Testament, either way, you were being you've been indoctrinated about, being told that you must be ashamed of yourself for anything, and that if you didn't walk the path, your your alleged loving God would smite you, with a rod of lightning,
Josh Campbell 33:00
arguably, it's like if you know, to break the patterns, you need to be rebellious, and a revolutionary, to to create a new one. And you know, what happened to revolutionaries in the old history, they were thrown stones, and
Martin O'Toole 33:12
they were called witches, and they were drowned or burned at the stake. Bam. And I think that lives through, you know, like, you say, epigenetics, transgenerational patterning, it's like if that trauma is still living through until someone breaks it, and has the courage and the vulnerability to lead through changing that. Yeah. And we call it breaking the cycle that way. Yes. And that's, and I think that's, well, that's what I done. And so the final part of the of the process for me was actually discovering, discovering Ayahuasca plant medicine. Right, you went down that way? Yeah. And I didn't realise I was going to but my younger brother actually introduced me to it, my younger brother came back into my life, and it was a completely different person. He was, Wow, he was just amazing. And he was he was love. And we, we had a very tempestuous relationship me, him and my other older brother on and off for six years, eight years, not talking, you know, all sorts. And I just wanted to know what it was that it did it affected this change in him, right. So eventually, he introduced me to Ayahuasca and that completely changed everything for me because the medicine doesn't many does many many many things for many people, but it is a healing medicine and what it does it's a but it's, it has the ability to reach right inside and get right on to the subconscious unconscious and, and pluck out all of your trauma windscreen wipers for the soul like period. Yeah, well, it's Yeah. And 10 years of therapy in one journey, you know, that's the that's the vibe is it is it's like a laser cut key to healing and Not to to disrespect psychiatry or psychology or psychotherapy. We actually had a psychotherapist on the show two weeks ago 77 year old chap called Keith Halligan back. Heath has been a psychotherapist for 20 years, 20 plus years, he's still practising in his 70s. And three years ago, he did Ayahuasca for the first time, okay. And that completely changed his perspective on psychotherapy on humanity on life of the universe. He had a huge it was already quite, he was already an awakened, being, by his own recollection, but, but he held fear into his 70s he was still a very fearful man, and the iOS was able to clean that and get it and just throw it away.
Josh Campbell 35:47
It's interesting, because he would have been in lots of attachment for his whole life, right? He would have gone through lots of education to get where he is, and he would have believed a one way linear way to sort of process complex information of what life is. And then for that to be broken down with a sledgehammer is painful shit, you know?
Martin O'Toole 35:47
Yeah, it is. But I but I think in his case, he was certainly you certainly a lot more enlightened anyway. So he's probably a little bit more fortunate. It wasn't as shocking. But what he did do was completely opened up his perspective to what the medicine can do. So he's now very keen to somehow obviously can't do it in the UK because it's the is criminalised. But he's keen to somehow work with integration, and helping people integrate substance assisted therapy, really doing some work with this medicine. So that was it. I did, I came to Bali. After that I closed through my whole life away. It was a mess. I gave everything away or sold stuff. And I moved to Bali, and I just spent a couple of years just doing the work. And that was meditation. It was breath work, it was yoga. It was silent retreats. And, and I fixed it. I fixed myself, do you think truly like these 100% done fixed? Well, to an extent I think you can be fully healed, but I think there is a our old conditioning can always come back and try and test us. And I think the only way that you can fix that is to do the work to get rid of most of that conditioning. But then always be vigilant through awareness through observation. And that can come in many ways Garnett, it can come through meditation, it can come through breathwork it can come through being able to observe yourself from a higher state of consciousness in an in an exchange. Yeah. And yeah, I've got there. Well put it this way. I still get grumpy I we had the next door neighbours were fogging for mosquitoes. We had that same thing. It was everywhere. Now you and I know that that stuff is absolutely bloody toxic is carcinogenic, and it can kill it can give you cancer. But it doesn't seem to stop people just spraying it all over the garden. So anyway, I was obviously set to set up all this gear to meet you. And it's been battering it down with rain all morning. And we couldn't come out because of the fog and I started to get and then you have stuff that
Josh Campbell 38:22
you were controlling, right? You felt like you lost control. This is really the kind of when we lose control we get you know, that's where the the emotional
Martin O'Toole 38:29
get anxious, don't you so I had to but I saw myself doing it. And that's the difference. Yeah, you know, this whole enlightenment, you know, awakenings story that people have for themselves. We should never forget that we're still humans. So yeah, of course, it's an amazing thing for you to get self aware. And for you to take responsibility for your actions and for you to learn how to interact and to love yourself and to love others in a better way. Don't never judge yourself to the point where you forget that you're human. I went through this, this was part of my process was actually I can't be human. Like that guy. You know, what he did was it was all bad.
Josh Campbell 39:10
But the thing is that that you've met your darkness. And the deeper you meet your own darkness, like the shadow work we were talking about is that then you have the perspective. You have the familiarity with shadow and evil so you can protect yourself navigating life, but you can also just then have the perspective of what good people are as well. Do you know what I mean? And what's the greatness in you and your life? Because you have that everybody has that? Yeah, we're all we're all born as emotional beings, we sort of have like you were saying earlier, we have like a, what they call human design. I've been looking into this, it's like you're kind of defined before you're ever born within the womb, your your kind of your design your you know, your nature is defined before you come into the world. And I think we're all born as energetic, emotional beings. And like you say, because you were born in Uh, within your spirit, your soul chose the family it did to learn the lessons that needed. Absolutely. So your mum and dad, were there as mirrors for you to figure out okay? How can I use this pain to now? Birth the passion you have now like what lessons? Can you teach people and it's kind of the reason why you've birthed this podcast as well, you know, your story is really turned into a gem. And it's gonna we need to embrace our darkness, not in an egoic way to see our there's a break and make story. But there's really, your journey can enlighten others. And that's how we learn, isn't it from external, we need to not make the same mistakes ourselves. It's kind of like you, you kind of need to make those mistakes you do? Of course you do. We can't do the healing for other people. You can't go in like, you know, give somebody like a DNA shot and say, okay, you've lived my life route through me,
Martin O'Toole 40:50
it has crossed my mind. I would love to probably same as you I would look, there have been times when I thought I would love to be able to just provide that shock or for people. Yeah, reality is we can't I think but but what we can do is, we can shave a little we can shave a corner off here and there for people. I think that's probably that's where I've got to with this. Because I went back to the Drama Triangle. If, if someone's playing the victim in their own story of self suffering, and they call me in to rescue them. Well, what tends to happen, what always happens in the Drama Triangle is, once you're in that Drama Triangle, at some point, the persona the triangle is going to flip. And suddenly, I went in as a rescuer. But because that victim is essentially, albeit an unknowing emotional vampire Energy Vampire, they flip the script, I become the victim and they become the persecutor. Does that sound familiar to anyone listening? Or does that sound familiar to you? Yes. So in a situation where we rescue, we will more often than not become a victim. So the only thing we can do for one another for our brothers and sisters is to enable is to just plant the seeds
Josh Campbell 42:07
is it and like you say that triangle is a great concept of how you can self abandon, you're abandoning yourself in some sense, shape or form, it's like you're not taking that is why we need to cite yourself impose empathy, we're great to give it and like, you know, I think they're just as an empath, myself and as a coach, you have to have firm boundaries around who has access to your energy. Absolutely. You have to set boundaries, this is it. And this is where like, is a great thing of detachment and like living without an identity, but there's an identity necessary. The self protective of okay, what do you want to associate with? What environments do you want to surround yourself with is learning as your intuition, your intuitive pulses aligned to those things you define and that's what we need to get in touch to, because we can come in naively into situations but then like we just said, it's like that naivety kind of teaches us we're like, Okay, we're gonna not, I can embrace those slips. They're not, you know, sometimes they are for, you know, it's a slipknot or for was, Abraham Lincoln says, it's like, well, you scrub back on and get on with it again. But it's not as easy. It's easier said than done, of course, but you make a really valid point and it in it sings to something I talk about quite a lot.
Martin O'Toole 43:15
Where I tried to explain that any event is just an event. Your emotional response to that event is what then defines the story. Yeah. So I suppose let's let's take my mother's death as an example. Because I'm sure there'll be people listening to this saying, well, it's not really that simple, buddy. You know, we've got emotions and we get upset. Alright, well, I'll talk about my Monday and then that's, you know, that's pretty that's pretty hardcore. How I responded to that in the first place was a Trump smash of self sabotage. You know, there's no two, there's no two ways about it. I absolutely went into self destruct mode. However, with hindsight, and with experience and self love and understanding, now I can I have a completely different perspective on that. So I do not resent my mother. I do not resent my father. I do not resent their grandparents. Because I will, how could I possibly judge anyone? For being human? When I myself, I'm a flawed human? So actually, I've turned what was resent into gratitude. Yeah. Thank you for those lessons. Thank you for that gift. Thank you for the gift of trauma. Yeah. Interesting, isn't it? Right. I mean, and that seems bizarre to a lot of people listening to this show. But actually, thanks for the great gift of trauma because I was able with the right tools and the right environment and the right people around me. I was able to turn that into a phenomenal gift transmute. I think you said, yeah, it's the polarities need to exist. You need the polarities. It's why evil and good existence.
Josh Campbell 45:00
We have these healing fantasies is what lots of people do. We say we, we believe we especially is it you know, somebody wants to give back, like yourself now, just completely turned it around is that we want the whole world to kind of wake up. Yeah, right we, we had this, everybody would be utopia. This is it. That's such an ideal scenario. But is it then that realism comes in? It's like, well, we're abandoning banding ourselves in the process of achieving what is a fantasy. It's a complete fantasy. It is. And it's not a reality. We live in a realm of duality. This is like if if everybody was good and woken, we would not know what evil was. And then we don't have the spectrum of what is good. And it's brilliant. There's a there's a famous little show I've been watching. It's I love some of these, you know, Netflix shows, you know, they have lots of great embedded messages, but it's called the good life. Have you watched that? I have. Yeah, yeah. It's quite quirky, isn't it American show, but it's kind of like, right at the end, no spoilers, hopefully, if anybody's not watching this, but it's like, right at the end is like that they all go to the afterlife, don't they? And then everything's all kosher. It's brilliant. Everyone's loving each other. They haven't they've done everything they needed to do. And then they were ready for that. They all sort of signed themselves off when they were ready. And they took 1000s of years to live that kind of perfect life but they were ready. Like I said the life and death it has to end. It does otherwise it becomes mundane. We as human beings, we like to make the extraordinary ordinary.
Martin O'Toole 46:21
Well, if you're into the realms of the hero's journey now I think for me it was Carl Jung talks a lot about this Disney. And I think Jung believed that the reason why the hero's journey the the hero's journey is a story structure for anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about. And actually, most a lot of Hollywood movies follow the hero's journey. A classic hero's journey would be Star Wars, the original Star Wars, a seemingly insignificant person is living in the regular world and then drawn into an other world. turns it down, takes it back up, picks up a mentor goes on an incredible journey of transformation. There's a climactic ending, everybody's happy. There's always evil involved, isn't there, there's always a bad guy to fight. There is duality through throughout that there has to be there have to be obstacles. It has to be good, evil, dark and light. You can't have a story of transformation without duality, can you and and Jung believed that? That it was it was it was almost ingrained in the reason why we we we so love the hero's journey is that it's ingrained in our DNA. I personally believe that's the case. I believe it's in the coding because I believe we reincarnate. And I believe that we come back time and time again. Until such time as we've had, we've completed the hero's journey, and then we ascend elsewhere. And this is the thing is like, again, like we were talking about like the beginning is that this spiritual identity and this ego, it's like, well, sometimes we make ourselves centre of the universe, that we are the hero. And it's kind of like, well, how can we reframe that as we're all heroes? Because and we're all here to coexist and teach one another through it being mirrors to one another? And how can we support one another rather than kind of, you know, be self serving and everything we're doing? You know, that's the beautiful point about the concept. I'm on a hero's journey. You're on a hero's journey. He's on the hero's journey. He's we're all heroes. And we're all we're all in one way, living this ourselves. And we are attempting to achieve this milestone in that milestone, but at the same time, we're working with one another in order to achieve it. If I was the only person on this planet, living a hero's journey, I wouldn't have had the traumatic upbringing. I wouldn't have. Well, I would, I wouldn't have learned anything, because it would just be me.
Josh Campbell 48:50
You'd be Yeah, you would have been asleep to it as well. You needed to shake that snow globe up so, so high that you shift it you know, when that you had the shotgun to your mouth, that was the moment that things needed to end a
Martin O'Toole 49:02
dog wouldn't have stopped me doing that. So so we're all we're all one another's cast, yes, in the hero's journey, and this is why we're all intrinsically connected. And this is why when we interact, we're actually providing one another with a gift. Yeah. And I appreciate that. A lot of people struggle to see that perspective. Because it's, you have to do a bit of work to get there.
Josh Campbell 49:27
It's a funny quote from The Avengers. Actually, I love superhero show as well. I love these movie quotes. But is that is we're all too busy trying to be something we're supposed to be yes. Not rather embracing who we truly are as as imperfect. Perfect beings is the thing is like you know the Superman you know when they create the cast of superheroes, Superman was too perfect. There was no kryptonite at the beginning and no one was interested in his story because he couldn't you didn't have a weakness you don't have a weakness there was no yeah, there's no hero flaw and this is the thing is like going back to the situation of life. Sometimes we can become a tragic hero. Because we try and create a life of suffering enough to feel like we've got a floor that's interesting that people will start to tune into. This can be quite kind of Crux when when it comes to kind of influence, or any shape or form. It's kind of like, well, why can't we make it easy for ourselves to? Why Can't We? We all live in harmony and then ingratitude, you know, like, do we need to really go through those rock bottoms to truly be, you know, discover our true self is the question. Maybe you have a response to that?
Martin O'Toole 50:33
Well, I don't think we do, I think is the short answer. I think societal modelling sorry, societal modelling and conditioning are playing a huge part in how messed up we are. Now, and and we don't need to be in such a messed up situation. The reality is that we have a matrix like situation now, aka society, where you can get so deeply lost in the rabbit hole, that you can be distracted from the beginning to the very end of your life without having any time or a real driver, or motivation to do inner work to become self aware. And you know, sorry to say it, but the metaverse is is another terrifying example of how you'll be pulled back into the matrix. Alcohol, cigarettes, drugs. Vanity,
Josh Campbell 51:34
the problem is is where we are fighting human instincts and human consciousness that we've been ingrained with to to help us survive just like Carl Jung says, It's like we are, I am who you think, I think you think I am. Why do we outsource so much of it? How if we get more conscious of that loop? So why do we need to prove something to the other person to be ourselves or you know what we try and approve essentially, so why can't we just be without even like, we cut that feedback but then it psychology is who we are. In our instinctual sales, we are ingrained that way to protect ourselves.
Martin O'Toole 52:09
It's ego that controls all of these all of these actions and thoughts and behaviours. And as you mentioned, Eckhart Tolle before we started recording, he wrote a wonderful book called The Power of Now, which is a beautiful book, isn't it? It's profound. And I still go back to that book. And if you haven't read it, please do because it's a it's an amazing introduction to the concept of your surrender, isn't it total surrender and surrender. Surrendering the ego in exchange for your true self, your consciousness, and it's that battle between ego and consciousness. And I mean, the guys are walking book of pros, everything he says is wisdom.
Josh Campbell 52:51
The thing is with this though, is that like going back in my story, I grew up in a football culture and lad culture as they call it in the UK. So as a young young lad culture where you go out to booze and you escaped through alcohol, you skate through girls straight from the footy, you know, you would really have mundane surface level conversations that would never go deep. And I always knew I was different you know, I was kind of performing at school a little bit you know, I was doing all right there I was a bit more you know, empathic I just was just a bit more emotional than the lads there the culture and society says systemically creates boys through school like the the boys will be boys famously said, that keeps it consciously keeps it at a surface level, because they're scared of what they can discover as well, just like you say, as the escapism, but I hit that rock bottom moment when I was, you know, we were in Mali or one, you know, went away for this kind of light lads holiday, you know, through retail and Greek islands. Yeah, it's, it's kind of like the New Yorker. What's the word for it? What it's New York, no Malleus Greek. And we went away for the summer, but it's just the booze up so you completely lose yourself. And you just escape everything you were, you know, is that the culture itself? And it took myself being knocked out on a strip by a big Albanian bodybuilder sort of it was it was terrible Yeah, I got knocked out sort of jumping in to help one of my friends and I remember just waking up who what where am I? Am I no one was there and none of my friends were there and then went through that situation then didn't learn went through that same toxic cycle they were like, Hey, mate, come along. And you know come to another lads holiday. So I went and accepted that familiar. hadn't learned the lesson yet. And this was like probably the one of the worst holidays I've ever had because I went through doing the the North canisters. Yeah, I think they were laughing gas or something upside down and with balloons to try and get high. And so I did that. And I remember posting with panic, panic attack. And I wish that there was like a drill going through my head and everything just went white and blank. Just like the first day I had to sort of then brave a whole week in a month. I've been in the arena with lions.
Martin O'Toole 55:03
So if I realise you didn't want to do it anymore,
Josh Campbell 55:05
and I didn't want to do it and then again the back to the Eckhart Tolle thing I couldn't surrender. It's almost like I needed to fight within that arena to then realise that pain was so much because I was eaten by bullying. I was eaten by like, Oh, you're you're different. You're weird. You're wacky like, come on, Josh got a rip manner, you know, stop being so sensitive. We're saying, we're, we're saying best men all our lives. We're not showing how to be a healthy masculine or how to be a good guy. We're shown what not to be ashamed for actually what helps us access that healthy masculine?
Martin O'Toole 55:37
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. I know, obviously, this is different in different cultures. But it's, it is all it does is steals and firms your steals up. And firms that sense of identity. Right, I must be tough. Yeah, because everybody else around me is being tough. And that's, I yeah, I think that's a masculine thing. But it's all it works for all of us in a way for men and women and everything in between, because, because then we are, we are forced to, to not show vulnerability. And this is something that if you were to surrender in those environments, you will likely take on the victim, which I did, you know, I was trying to surrender. I was like, I'm just gonna accept me, I'm not going to fire back with more banter or more nasty comments. I was never that guy. I was never to rebound it like I was taking on a lot.
Josh Campbell 56:28
And I was like, I didn't realise that there was different or perspective, I didn't know there was actually really helpful. They come into barley like yourself, really, people who accept you for who you are, and I'm not threats are not things that you need to deem or realise is sugar, I need a tactic to defend myself here, we're in protective fight flight freeze responses. So how do you kind of, then have conscious control which you need to create an identity around to lean more towards those things that feels far safer, allows you to access those levels of self actualization that Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Sometimes we do need to accept the fact that we are surviving at times and half have to survive through the past to come through those learnings and it's just like they say, we can't go through and, you know, shove our story down other people's throats, because they will hopefully learn that themselves and just just become more awake to their external world. Is this truly making me feel good? Is this really, truly bringing out my true self? Or what they call the role self? The persona, you know, is this really driving me further away from who I truly am, or closer to who I truly am? And this is the hard part because relationships are just like that. And they they're your mirror? And I even asked myself, even sometimes with my wife, I'm thinking, Am I becoming true, more truly, more of who I truly am, or less of who I am. And then we have to detach from the past because, you know, being you both we've both had these egoic past. So it's kind of how do we detach from that egoic past to really, truly believe who we truly are. And that's where the spiritual teachings come in. Because that surrendering that destroy those layers. You don't need to prove beings just enough. So funny cliche that goes around in the personal development. It's like, just be yourself. But if just being yourself is that easy, we'd all be
Martin O'Toole 58:19
funny is it was it. Oscar Wilde said, be yourself. Everyone else is taken, which I thought was a wonderful quote.
58:26
58:26
Martin O'Toole 58:54
I am immensely conscious. All the while that we've been talking about my story a lot. And I suppose I was happy to do that in as much as we were talking about my inability to relate, especially to women. Yeah, well, let's face it, he was with everybody. However, we've not talked enough about about you and what you do. Would I be weird? Isn't it what I'd be? What were you I'd been you?
Josh Campbell 59:25
Well, again, it is with marketing. It is sort of, again, an identity like, what am I going to show to the world that I can truly be your best service now for me at the moment, and it's always going to transform and evolve. But at the moment I help women heal through toxic relationships, having gone through toxic relationships with men and realign to their true selves really unravel those stories they've been telling themselves really make sense of their traumatic stories, and kind of be that compassionate expander for the masculine for them to go out and seek it in the dating world. So sight to, again attached to more healthy ideals for men. Gotcha. And so it's more like a you know, wrap it up in one. Some is just the Conscious Dating Coach really bringing into consciousness to what is I'm afraid. In our modern world. There's lots of like sleazy tactician ways of navigating dating. It's kind of like being something you're not choosing to play the games to seduce your partner into kind of a transactional means of love. That never is shallow, isn't it? We can never meet ourselves, you know, we only can meet the other as far as we've met, I bet yeah, exactly the same thing. It's like meeting that that soul that can can kind of meet meet you and your adapt.
Martin O'Toole 1:00:39
I think that's a very worthwhile thing to be being rather than doing. I think, my obviously I'm a little bit older and a little bit long in the tooth and I'm probably unplugged while I am entirely unplugged from from the from the Matrix per se. It's been a long time since I Well, long enough since I since I was on the dating game. But it strikes me that it is an incredibly terrifying place to be these days.
Josh Campbell 1:01:09
And why I would love to ask you. How have you overcome the ability to sort of like snap the fingers and think that I've got the willpower not to dip my toes into those spaces ever again, just out of curiosity?
Martin O'Toole 1:01:21
I know that's a fair question. I funnily enough, is a chap called Rumi is a Sufi poet in the 12th 13th century, and Rumi was channelling serious magic when this guy wrote and spoke. And one of the things he said was, perhaps you are searching among the trees among the branches for what may only be found in the roots. I see. And I realised that I'd spent the majority of my adult life in the branches, looking for distraction in the fruits with the fruits, because one of my addictions was sex addiction. So I was prolific in A and not A proud way. I hasten to add, I was a prolific and I was I was so it was never satisfied. Yeah. And of course, I was always because I didn't know myself, well look myself, I was always attracting the wrong kind of partner anyway,
Josh Campbell 1:02:19
he asked, actually, for that same pot failures. You're a handsome guy, man. Like, it's very guy. And I'm sure that back in there, you were a good looking chap. And, you know, you were attracting attention, as like how you potentially abuse that power. And I think lots of men do. Yeah, they abuse commitment because they realise, okay, you know, you're, you've got the gift of the gab, we've got the charm, we've got the seductive, kind of, you know, you can play those games and you have the, you are gifted physically, and women love. It's like a moth to a light and you were like, Okay, let's take advantage of this in an unconscious way, I suppose. Exactly. And it's like that that's then posing the unhealthy masculine to the healthiest like, well, when's that limit enough? Like? That's when morality and biblical and religious studies can actually help us navigate with morality rather than ego? In that sense. It's like, well commit that point is what marriage can sometimes help is that okay? Get your horse blinkers on, resist the urge, resist your instincts, and, and give your all really kind of surrender, like you say, and commit to that one part. And why does it need to be a few and again, like, I don't want to define this because it's me projecting to the microphone is like some people can have a happy with polyamorous relationships. Exactly. And this is the thing is, that's their vision of success tonight, you know, you've got to be aware of how you project that as well. How did you kind of move through with your own moral compass to overcome sort of being the bachelor, Bachelor of your youth?
Martin O'Toole 1:03:51
Well, simply put, I learned to love myself. And I don't mean in an unhealthy way. So I realised that I'd spent my whole life not loving me. Yeah, I was a thought I did. The thought was very happy. Had a mask on a mask on a mask and a mask. I had a different mask for different people. You know, I'm talking to you, you get this mask and talking to you, you get this mask. It was exhausting. I have multiple personas. And none of them were me. None of them were the authentic me. And I know it's a cliche, but if you can't love yourself, how can you expect anyone else to love you? And yeah, when I learned to love myself, I realised that I was all I needed.
Josh Campbell 1:04:39
Yeah, I love that. They really say how can you love yourself? How can you have others love you if you don't love yourself? Exactly. You need to become familiar with that love to actually accept it. and surrender to it. Allow it cuz some people can find difficulty in accepting compliments. Yeah, and this is again, it's like surrender. into the fact that somebody is giving you that gift. Yeah, and not an egoic way. It's kind of like, again, if we attach the good, we're going to make the it's just like, you know, comments on your social media, for example, the great people that praise you, you can accept it, but don't get too attached to it, because you're going to equally attach the hating comments. Absolutely. Well let it eat you alive.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:19
So there's an event, an event, thank you, gratitude, move on. Yeah, and I, you know, we talked about we talked about attachment, I always say I'm attached to nothing, but I'm connected to everything, there's a difference, you know, you can live a life of non attachment, or you can work towards living a life of non attachment, without being an Android or a, you know, a robot. There is there is a wonderful fine line there where you always realise the impermanence of anything. And I suppose with that in mind, I, I've realised the impermanence of my own self harm, my own self sabotage, there's an expression isn't the leopard never changes, this spots, this interesting as him as well, he, and I had that said to me several times by by women, and rightly so at the time. And I think even when I quit drinking, and quit doing drugs, and I came here, I know for a fact that a lot of people in my, in my peer group back in the UK, genuinely believe that a leopard will never change its spots around. I certainly never set out to make these changes to prove to anyone anything, actually, the whole point was to stop trying to project myself to anyone and everything and actually start to turn the turn the camera and the lights, metaphorically speaking on me, and do the inner work. And yeah, so I completely appreciate the position that a lot of your, the women that you work with, will be in, because, unfortunately, Martin version 1.0 was the guy causing the problems for them. That is, again, humility to accept that. Because, again, I can say you want to be the hero, you want to feel like you are perfect. Yeah. How do you want to feel like you don't have those flaws.
Josh Campbell 1:07:14
But I think it's something so humble about what you say, to accept the fact that well, that's lessons for a lot of people to your life is then a lesson for others. And, you know, it's so deep because you were a perpetrator, as it were, you know, you knew the game that luglio was
Martin O'Toole 1:07:27
our victim, depending on I was whatever I needed to be in order to get people into my Drama Triangle and control the situation. Now. I'm conscious we've we've got a question for you. Yeah. As you know, but not everybody knows we have a portion on the show called Be my guest, where an audience member will record a question for you. So we've got one here on sec. Oh, fantastic.
1:07:54
1:07:54
Martin O'Toole 1:08:05
Forrest, significantly better voice and more talented than me in musical terms, as I say could resonate with you as beautiful voice.
Julia Malcolmson 1:08:17
Hi, Josh, and all our wonderful listeners. Sorry that I can't be with you today on the podcast. But instead, I thought that this week, I could be the Be my guest. And my question for you, Josh, is what are the signs of gaslighting? And what can the receiver of this do about it? And on another note, this isn't an inquiry based on my own personal circumstances. But it is quite a hot topic right now. And something that's really worth addressing. So thank you very much.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:57
Bless my queen jewels is in the second day of a cycle. So she's retired. She's She's resigned to the womb cave for a couple of days to rest up.
Josh Campbell 1:09:05
That's coming from a deep place then that has come from the magic of feminine
Martin O'Toole 1:09:09
well she's intuiting right now, isn't she at this time as a cycle? So yeah, so one of the question, , what are the signs of gaslighting? And what can the victim of gaslighting do about it?
Josh Campbell 1:09:23
Brilliant, well, going back to what we need to identify what gas lighting is and who the who, who does it and how we understand that person as well is that all gaslighting is a projection. And it's something that we just did the spiritual element is not taking it personally. We understand that the other person is doing it as a form to again feel, feel protected and their own identity and try and shift blame or shift that there they probably be externalising they're escaping their problems. And gaslighting can kind of Be the external tactic for them to then blame and make them feel self righteous. So the woman in that situation is likely the internaliser is taking it to heart and self reflecting and, and, and taking it personally. And what you need to do is sort of allow it to go right through you and not own it, it's kind of step at right over it. If that person I heard Brene Brown's great, I'm gonna take what she said it was that find that person who's willing to be in the arena with you, the person who's willing to take off the armour, the layers, the personas, and lead with vulnerability, as gaslighting is not vulnerability, completely escaping, not at all. And it's somebody who can really allow themselves to be seen, felt and heard with you. So you need to figure out if that person in front of you is really displaying that form of vulnerability to make you feel like you can feel safe, accepted, and provided for as the masculine if you're looking at a heterosexual relationship. That's kind of how I coach so I'll use that term to everybody else who, who are in other forms, the masculine feminine, dynamic still exists, but it's allowing, seeing the masculine to provide not persecute and in its own way, you know, it's kind of that's what I would say gaslighting as a means to create you as the victim. So they feel more entitled to the power dynamic that coexists is it and it's not a empowering place to be. So sometimes it does take I think, for women, creating the boundaries going within knowing your sense of self as much as you possibly can, so you're not being distorted by their thoughts and speaking spoken word. So we can easily like we said, we are a reflection of what you think of me. And so if you're in a toxic relationship, for example, you can really distort your sense of self. Since being very aware of what your what you valued going into your inner child, like when what did you love to do as a child, that's why I love healing, like that was truly you, before conditioning came in, at a certain certain age. So just look look before, you know, ages, five months to six, you know, as much as you can consciously bring out of that is is that was you until you're conditioned and access to that person again. Yeah. And that that will help you heal in some sense, shape or form and just come back to yourself.
Martin O'Toole 1:12:33
I think some of the tactics of gaslighting are very often to in an argument for example, to to dismiss your partner, so you might be bringing as the gaslighter bringing all the problems into an argument for no reason whatsoever. And in order to keep that argument alive, you will dismiss that person's opinion. That's nonsense. You're too sensitive. You know, you're always feeling this and feeling that. Or you might tell them something that they've said that they didn't say yes. Or you might run them around in in ragged circles in an in a quite a tedious debate to the point where the person you're in the relationship with is absolutely emotionally and mentally exhausted. So you beat them down. And then you have them in a point where they quit while they're in a victim space. But they're also they get to that point where they're genuinely quenched questioning whether or not it was their fault. And this is what a gaslighter does. And and this is what gaslighting can do this. Actually knowingly, very knowingly it's a form of bullying as well as let's be honest, it's browbeating, as my mom would say, I suppose. A way to to beat people down into submission and to the point where they literally do begin to question their own sanity.
Josh Campbell 1:13:56
And sometimes morality, this is the high part when they bring in you're not a good person. We're doing X for me. There's a there's a very trending Netflix documentary about the tinder Swindle. Who's a man he plays a lot of. Have you seen this one? You're disconnected from it again? Yes. Okay. Again, I've just kind of keeping one toe into the well it's in your it's in your professional space, isn't it? This is it another sort of like they're the women I kind of want to cast a net to help. But this man casts in it in a whole new way. It's a way that plays a very extravagant lifestyle, the mask of materialism. For men. It's kind of like the Disney Princess themes come up like that This man will save me from my toxic household or, like Cinderella, for example. Or just like Belle and the Beast and Disney is like baseball trap bell in the castle despite his abusive behaviour, yet she she thinks beast will change because beast sees the kindness and compassion in her that he can change through her being his mirror, but she accepts tolerates it so much though that in the end he does become her Type but then again we the healing fantasy of I will make him my type and so I will say advice and be the tragic hero of that story to see the potential in that person and I like you saying you know this that gaslight is a great at building a potential that's very romanticised and easy to fall into and a fantasy. Oh my God, my life could really look like that. Yeah, so in that, Vic, you've probably been down in that victim mentality into that sort of, like very impressionable state. And then you've were able to play on what Robert Greene says is there's there's your play on desire, confused, confusion, and desire. Together, it's like you're gonna, you're gonna kind of like, throw the carrot in front of the donkey, you're given the tree, and then use avoidance tactics and just sort of retreat or neglect, in some way, shape, or form to not give them too much. Yeah, allow them to become addicted to you. And that's the form of gaslighting. So you kind of have to break the cycle of toxic abuse, it's like it's kind of like a big circle. And there's four stages to it, there's to begin with, it's kind of like the tensions are building right at the beginning. So that's kind of emotional friction that lots of incidents kind of accumulate. And then the incident happens, that's when like, you know, physical abuse can occur of whatever it could be. When it really hits its pinnacle, its peak of abuse. And then there's a reconciliation stage. So those who are abusers are great at saying that's what the gaslighting Can you were the one on the wrong, but I forgive you. And I forgive you. Yeah, you know, I, you've done so much for me, and I trust you, and using the moral compass as well, like you've been such a good person to meet you for staying with me, despite my weaknesses and flaws in the new play the victim as a certain shape and shape of like, Okay, we're on this late level playing field. But then what happens is the reconciliation comes around and then your central nervous system is addicted to it. Then the calmness comes around, and it's kind of like settling down and you're both kind of in lovey dovey the honeymoon, this is when the honeymoon phase comes back around. Yep. And then it's only a matter of time until it really recycles. And it comes back and comes back. And then your central nervous system is programmed to, to be familiar with it. And now you've survived it once you can survive it again, because of it again, to survive it again.
1:17:22
Well, and then he suddenly becomes the norm, doesn't it? And I think as he as you said, another really depressing aspect of that dynamic is when the victim of a narcissist feels optimistic enough that they can change that person. In the show, I'll give a brutally short answer to Julia's question What can a victim of a gaslight to do and that is leave? I'm telling you right now, pack your bags. Don't look back and leave because a gaslighting gaslighting is a symptom of narcissism. It's a it's an action through of a narcissist, and the narcissist doesn't know they're a narcissist. So unless you are in a really, really fortunate situation where the partner you're with says, Do you know what I realise? I've got some serious problems. And I've and I've got some serious work to do. And that can happen by the way.
Martin O'Toole 1:18:19
You know, it can happen, so leopards can change their spots. But unless they say that and they say I am fully prepared to now begin to do the work. And that doesn't mean I'm going to start meditating. And I'm going to read a book and I'm going to watch a documentary, it means actually seeking professional help. There's no other there's no other way to do it. If they don't, if they're not willing to do that, then the best thing you can do is get out. Just get out now. And so you know, you'd have to fall out. Unfortunately, you probably will the nature of a narcissist, yeah, they don't. They're suffering from abandonment issues in the first place. So when you leave, you're really going to cause some some issues, but bear in mind that that's not your fault. And that's not your damn problem, either. All of that is their problem. And the best thing you can do is take yourself out of that Drama Triangle. Go and get back to normal because I know for a fact you won't be normal after that you'll be 50 shades have fucked up after being in a relationship with a narcissist. Yeah, there's been no I mean, because they've they've really mess with people they really do mess you up and, and fine, and you find yourself going What the hell was that you are actually suffering from PTSD? Or yeah, the time who am I? What am I? You know, what did I do wrong? Well, you know, you find yourself questioning and trust me, you might be in the wrong, you know, because we're not all perfect, right? It's it's a it's a partnership, you know, we're co responsible but, you know, love yourself, take yourself out of it.
Josh Campbell 1:19:43
But it's like The Truman Show, though, isn't it? We are living in a society from the mass population that is that the government, gaslight, the government shame, Louis, the way we are policed is the same way we are we are saying you're unkind for not being vaccinated. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a gaslighting tactic to say there's something wrong
Martin O'Toole 1:19:59
With you absolutely insane when happening on a on an international level and obviously being pumped into your eyes and ears by the mainstream media, to the point where it's familiar, leave it. And then obviously, there's going to be if you have no boundaries around the external world and not conscious of it, there's only a matter of time, but that bleeds into your love and relationship policy does. And we are we, it takes a great Dev, great devil, that's curious, curious slip of words, a great level of detailed work to become aware all the time, you know, so if you can learn to observe, learn to observe you and the people around you, and try to do it without judgement, because obviously, that's the key, then often you can then see that you're being gaslighted. You know, I listen, I had to tell somebody very close to me last week, who I've known for a long time, right? Okay, I can't do this anymore, into your gas, you just gaslit me. And in reality, you've been doing that most of our relationship, we have a very toxic relationship, as I'm now telling you is that a male to male relation male right? Now telling you for the final time, I'm putting a boundary out and don't don't do that. If you want to retain any sort of relationship with me, going forward, you will never communicate with me like that again.
Josh Campbell 1:21:22
And you need to communicate the stakes. Because then nobody you know, then you'll realise it's a great way to communicate, so you get more clarity to where it comes from. Yeah, well, no, they're they're only guessing. We I can't guess how you feel until you really tell me unless I can. I can't fruit for empathic tendencies. But it's like I communicate in takes the guesswork out of everything. And then it gives up what's for stake, you need to create consequences. Because then that will show if they can commit you for those consequences and your reality can't change until you take that control. To the end of course, communicate if you can as an adult. So yeah, so that transactional theory analysis try not to patronise try not to behave like a Wounded Child. Just communicate and this is essentially what I did. In this communication. It was okay, look, I've tried. I've tried several different ways to do this. This particular person often often plays the victim in the Drama Triangle, or the persecutor, but mainly the victim. Woe is me. Everything in my life is shit. You know, why is this always happening to me?
Martin O'Toole 1:22:33
You know, it's not my fault. It's never this person's fault. It's always someone else's fault. externalising? Yeah, and don't get me wrong again. I'm sweeping generalisation there are there are occasions when it is somebody else's fault, of course, but then it's still an event and it's up to you how you want to react to that. And, and I can just clearly calm the communicated, please, if you want to retain a relationship with me of any meaning, you must never communicate with me like this again. I've asked you time and time again. Funnily enough, I've not heard back from this person now. So that's fine.
Josh Campbell 1:23:06
It's okay. Yeah, that's also fine. It's why you need to be okay with rejection. Absolutely. And detail your rejection because the thing is with with souls that are on the other side of gaslighting is that they fear of rejection so much that they feel it hard to reject others. Absolutely. You're potentially rejecting somebody but for your own good and that's, that's healthy ego. In some sense. It's like I need to stand in my
Martin O'Toole 1:23:29
Well, it's, it's, it's energy protection. Ultimately, if you think think if you're being gesslin, I was being gaslit. In this particular situation. Gaslight, another tactic from a gaslighter, as you've identified is to then leave you alone, I turn away from you. And essentially it's like, right, okay, well, you've just lost my affection and my attention now see how you get on with it.
Josh Campbell 1:23:53
And scarcity isn't it the plane with scarcity is now valuable? Because you're scarce totally in it.
Martin O'Toole 1:23:58
And if you've if you really have become a full on Stockholm Syndrome victim in that arrangement, which incidentally, is not judgement happens all the time, then you might just go after a little while. Oh, hi, look, I'm really sorry if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to and then boom, you're back in the trap. Is this a tactic?
Josh Campbell 1:24:17
Because you know, no different and you think that that person is your only way back to feeling? Feeling good about yourself again, and feeling what you feel in that relationship? Yeah, absolutely.
Martin O'Toole 1:24:28
This is because this is not always romantic relationships. You know, let's, let's be let's be straightforward about this. You can have family who are narcissists. Oh, yeah. Good friends who are narcissists. Absolutely. Who gaslight you and mistreat you in toxic relationships. So, however they make you feel in that relationship is something that you caught, of course, you cherish it because it's why you have that relationship
Josh Campbell 1:24:50
as what this way you kind of have to align to peace, and especially pleasure to peace. But what we do is we associate pleasure to experience and in and out like you say the scarcity The, the avoidance trap, the, you know, most of the women I work with are anxiously attached. And the men that they they tend to attract are avoidant. Yeah. Because they're like, again, it's addicted to that toxic cycle of abuse, they're addicted to absence. And again, they may have had fathers who were at work quite a lot. And they, they kind of move towards it, like we said, right, the beginning is that you have two responses, you move towards it, like anxiously attached to you, they kind of feel that that's familiar, so they could try and get it. Or you come up with a new way, which is a far more empowered stance and start to explore different which is where I try and guide women, it's like, well, you can find sociation with peace, start to really come to tap into that, and then start to befriend it and think that this is actually truly good for me. And I want to sort of fish in the right ponds and find new modalities to heal as well. Just meditation is obviously the first line of action. I think that saved me from deep dark depression at 17. I'm also first like, again, the first mover in my group of lads that were in friends again, same thing, it's like that same gaslighting mentality. I felt weird wacky at the time. But it was so good for me. And it was really hard to sort of adapt and make my new norm. And then that's when I sort of found breathwork nutrition, just putting trician wholesome foods, you know, everything. The whole lot just sort of whacked at me. It's sort of at 19. And I sort of had that spiritual awakening around there. And so yeah, it's really important that you find that new way, because there is any way just know that you're not victim to your circumstances. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:26:27
And just following on from that, and something else you said earlier on there is, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of us, we are in a situation of abuse. gaslighting is abuse, it's just, it's just mental abuse, it's abuse of your mental health. Because unfortunately, the same people gaslighting can also be physically violent, I was never physically violent with a partner. That's it? Doesn't this just as bad as one another in a way, right? Oh, usually. And once, if you are able to take yourself away from that, you will find yourself in a situation where you can get back to being you. And so from my perspective, it's the My advice to anyone in that situation is you're not you now in this relationship, you don't realise it, because you're just in it. But this person is changing you into something, they're bending you out of shape. And that's why you feel it, you do feel it that you feel are naturally unhappy in some way. Because your intuition is telling you I'm not I'm not a piece, right. And you're a beautiful word to use in this context. So actually, the best thing you can do is, is take yourself away from it. And remove yourself from that toxic relationship. And this is a thing. This is where I debate with people about the concept of ghosting.
Josh Campbell 1:27:55
Okay, yeah, that's avoidant behaviour, basically, well, yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:27:58
However, if someone is abusing you, you are well within your rights to say this no longer serves me. Love and Light. Best of luck, but I am, I cannot have you in my life. It's a form of boundary, sorry, yet on that side of it. So exactly that so. So there are two sides to ghosting. As you say, one is avoidance. But don't let because a gaslighter will come at you with the word ghosting as well as another tactic. So if you have said your piece in the most calm and collected way, and you've set out your boundaries, and your boundaries have been written over roughshod, it's up to you to define how many times for me, it's three, three strikes and you're out.
Josh Campbell 1:28:39
It was like a driving test, I say, Isn't it is it there's a major is a major test in regard. You know, that's when you're like, you know, we're bumping into the car on a three point,
Martin O'Toole 1:28:48
whatever assault is, whatever, whatever suits us, right, you know, you know, my boundaries and your boundaries, they might be different than maybe the same. But it's whatever, you really just got to put yourself at the centre of that your happiness, your peace of mind, your mental health, at the centre of it.
Josh Campbell 1:29:04
And again, it's a real big redefining moment, because internalises who tend to be the victims in this situation tend to have had to hold in thoughts, feelings, emotions, in their opinions with their mom and dad's thinking, and that's what they were Harmonizers and they were the people they were the mediators, they were sort of like, I'm just gonna go within and self reflect like, I'm just a bird and if I talk up, that's exactly the same thing. That's why they fall into traps with toxic relationships and don't feel empowered enough to take that action because they feel like the only action to take is to go quiet and tolerate it. Yeah. And again, like there's a funny little like, if we reject this is like, well, the empath can also turn into a form of a narcissist to finally look at it like I don't want to trigger anyone on the other side of Alabama, but you can start to your victimisation is narcissistic in some way, shape or form because you believe in you can say Have someone or evict someone and sacrifice yourself to do that make them your type is a form that you have some form of self importance, isn't it, and it's like, I'm gonna stay in this, to really live out that identity. So is that again meet your shadow and the shadow kind of you only meet, you kind of need to raise your consciousness so you don't meet unconscious beings or be more aware of it because you are just as unconscious as the Gaslight and the perpetrator, the victim, you meet them in a village, just like you say, with a three, you know, three things, it's kind of, yes, it's still the same distance on each side of her. Yeah. No, I totally agree. And, and this is also a key point
Martin O'Toole 1:30:42
I took on board through my healing process was co responsibility to to go back over these events and these these phases of my life and to say, okay, yeah, you were a victim in that, but hang on a minute. Where's the core responsibility? You know, you you did walk into that arrangement, you did stay in that arrangement, you did give that person seven chances instead of three, you did this, you did that. And as you say, you, you almost had the way you had the ego to decide I'm going to change this person, he has now caught that in one way that's coming from a place of love. But in the other ways, it's coming from a place of self preservation, because you like this arrangement? Yes, it's a bit, it's a bit faulty. And he abuses me or she abuses me on a regular basis. But all in all, you know, it's not a bad look in relationship as relationships go. So I want to keep it. So I'm going to I'm going to do my best to try and keep it but the reality is, you can't, you just cannot. But actually the best thing you could do. And I think obviously just I've already sort of said this, but the best thing you can do for a narcissist is to leave them and then let them do the work because there's certain work we can do together in our partnerships in our relationships, where when we are when we are working with equals and growing together, growing that's an important word. Yeah. There's certain work you cannot do when you're in a relationship. And I certainly personally believe that this sort of work is is the it's the big work review. Literally, if you are a guest gaslighting narcissist, you are causing these problems for yourself. And for other people. The only way you can fix it is to is to start making some wholesale changes to your life and you've got to go inward. And this is the only direction you can go.
Josh Campbell 1:32:38
So internalises needs to go external, they need to communicate and blame it like like kind of like force, they own it, that that was their fault, and let them have that responsibility of their fault and and understand that. And then again, the externalise of usually the narcissist they blame us addiction and all that to kind of escape their emotional pain is is they need to go with it. And they need to self reflect more. And it's kind of like, well, the lovely spiritual teaching is just equilibrium and balance polarities need to exist and so internalises need to become more external and vice versa. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:33:10
Josh, like I could do. Somebody was bringing hot drinks is not going to be Jules because she's in the wound cave. But, you know, ladder is a balloon at the moment or a sandwich then I could talk to you for several hours about this. But I'd love to, to do this again with you. But yeah, in the interest of trying to keep these episodes a little bit shorter, I think we're going to have to say farewell.
Josh Campbell 1:33:34
I know. I know. I'm getting to I know it's a deep, deep dive subject. We can go into it a lot. I think we've covered quite well.
Martin O'Toole 1:33:40
We have Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come out, especially in this. You know what, when you were Yeah, what adds to the tone, doesn't it? It's kind of like this colour like Dracula's castle. Now we're in isn't it it's like that slight undertone of like thunder and light. Sometimes you got sunshine, sometimes you got rain, that's life in the tropics, but so no, I really appreciate your your time and your energy and your input. And I hope the audience is going to enjoy listen to this. If anybody is wants to find out a little bit more about about Josh, you can go on our website how to die happy podcast.com forward slash on dash, that dash show. And you'll find a picture of this handsome chap with a little profile, click on that and you can go to his website and find out a little bit more.
Josh Campbell 1:34:25
Thanks, buddy. I just want to Yeah, I just want to see you as well. I just want to see and feel you that this incredible vulnerability and incredible. I admire you for that, you know I talk a lot about that sort of narcissistic point of view. But for you to really see yourself and and make the amends that you're doing, you know, is extremely courageous mate. So I see you for that. I think you really are and for lots of men. I think men need to do this stuff.
Martin O'Toole 1:34:53
These these topics we've been talking about today we're going to talk about a lot on this show because this show is all about of living well, so you can die well right and it's not really that the whole point isn't obviously the shows how to die happy but I don't know if you haven't got it by now it's the trick is actually the secret to dying well is living well and so we just want to be able to have conversations like this on a regular basis and and hopefully just get people to you know maybe think Yeah actually I am doing a bit of that or I am feeling that or I am suffering from that and, and isn't here a few utilities and you have absolutely packed this episode with utility so
Josh Campbell 1:35:34
brilliant and yourself mate has been brilliant. Yeah. And again, I think it'd be happy own the sadness to like we said already I think I think we're all so attached to be unhappy but but be okay with your emotional turbulence at the moment. If you're listening to this and you're going through some shit, it's it's accept it. What is it trying to teach you lean into it and never reject it? Because it's part of that journey to happiness. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:35:57
Amen to that brother. Thank you so much. Love you. Thank you peace and love.
Josh Campbell 1:36:01
Thank you
