Episode 20 Transcript
SPEAKERS
Kartika Alexandra (guest), Martin O'Toole (host), Julia Malcolmson (co-host),Kate (Be My Guest audience recording), Duane Forrest (show musician)
Martin O'Toole 00:00
Hello, Jules.
Julia Malcolmson 00:01
Hello, my love what's going on?
Martin O'Toole 00:03
Lots of change. Hello listeners slash watchers, watchers. Viewers, watchers. Watchers sounds a little bit pervy.
Julia Malcolmson 00:14
Yeah, I don't like it.
Martin O'Toole 00:15
No. Anyway, hi, wonderful folks at home, wherever you are. And however you are engaging with us. Welcome back to the How to die happy podcast. And as I said, there has been a lot of change. Because as some of our audience may have noticed, we've we've stopped doing these little intro introductions, primarily because we looked at the analytics of the show, which told us that people were struggling to listen to anything over an hour and a half. So and we fully appreciate that your time and energy are super important. So we're trying desperately hard to keep these conversations and these shows shorter.
Julia Malcolmson 00:54
It is a challenge.
Martin O'Toole 00:55
Well, it is because we're trying to talk about life, love, death, happiness, the universe, and provide stories and practical utilities around all of that. And it is tough to try and keep that under a certain time. So
Julia Malcolmson 01:08
We have really great guests, and I just want to talk to them.
Martin O'Toole 01:11
Yeah, so do I, and they just want to talk to us. So all that said, thank you for your patience. And please do bear with us. And again, all that said, we only have an introduction to this particular episode, because why?
Julia Malcolmson 01:25
Because in Bali, it is in Nyepi, which is a Day of Silence across the entire island. And it's one of the biggest festivals in the Balinese Hindu calendar.
Martin O'Toole 01:36
It's the biggest festival.
Julia Malcolmson 01:38
Yeah. And we observe a full day of silence. And there's no internet. And for a lot of the villages, they don't even have electricity.
Martin O'Toole 01:49
Yeah, so with all that in mind, we're not even sure whether or not we'll have internet or electricity. So trying to record our next interview, which was with the incredible John Butler transpire to be immensely difficult. So that's it, so we're gonna skip a week. But you know, we haven't ended it. We're not dead yet. And if we were dead, just bear in mind we would have died Should we do a precis to Kartika's interview since we're here?
Julia Malcolmson 02:23
Well, yeah, we had a really wonderful talk with Kartika who was in episode series one, episode five?
Martin O'Toole 02:31
Correct.
Julia Malcolmson 02:32
Yep. And I obviously didn't get to meet her then. So it was really lovely to have a good chat with her. And what did we talk to her about?
Martin O'Toole 02:40
Well, Kartika is a an integrative hypnotherapist, particularly in this episode, we focused on relationships, which is a really fun episode. Notwithstanding the fact that Kartika is incredibly easy to talk to, but obviously, we're in a relationship.
Julia Malcolmson 02:59
Are we?
Martin O'Toole 03:01
Apparently so it was quite fun to occasionally reference our own arrangements. But you're going to love this episode this in this we talk about divorce rates, we talk about the top reasons why relationships fail. And all along the trail. We discuss how you might try to avoid some of that stuff. So it was really fun. Hope you like it as much as we do.
Julia Malcolmson 03:28
Let's listen to Kartika.
Martin O'Toole 03:29
And/or watch Kartika.
Julia Malcolmson 03:31
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 03:59
Hey, Kartika
Kartika Alexandra 04:01
Hello!
Martin O'Toole 04:02
Welcome back.
Kartika Alexandra 04:03
Thanks for having me back.
Martin O'Toole 04:04
It's Kartika our first revisiting guests from season one?
Julia Malcolmson 04:08
Our second revisiting guests, we had Chris plow.
Martin O'Toole 04:12
Oh, he came twice in the first season.
Julia Malcolmson 04:14
Okay. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 04:15
So welcome back.
Kartika Alexandra 04:17
Thanks for having me.
Martin O'Toole 04:18
Thanks for coming. What's been happening?
Kartika Alexandra 04:20
A lot. A lot of time is moving so fast. changes are happening all the time. Yes, that was a different version from I think all of us when we first met.
Martin O'Toole 04:30
Yeah, it was a different version of the podcast as well.
Kartika Alexandra 04:32
That too.
Martin O'Toole 04:33
Yeah. Yeah. And we had a lot less equipment. And we're doing video.
Kartika Alexandra 04:37
That's yeah, you see! That's changes.
Martin O'Toole 04:40
Well, I like to say that changes the one to one constant in the universe, so...
Kartika Alexandra 04:44
And we should welcome that.
Martin O'Toole 04:45
Hear hear. Well welcome back anyway
Kartika Alexandra 04:47
Thank you.
Martin O'Toole 04:47
Thanks for having us. I was gonna say Kartika Alexandra in the house, but we're actually in your office.
Kartika Alexandra 04:53
Yeah. So you guys' house.
Martin O'Toole 04:56
Thank you.
Julia Malcolmson 04:56
Aww, thank you.
Martin O'Toole 04:57
Very kind of you to say well Kartika we thought today we would talk about relationships.
Kartika Alexandra 05:03
Exciting.
Martin O'Toole 05:04
Now, I would like to precis that with it's not that we're having any relationship problems, and we figured we'd just try and get a free, free therapy session. I think am I right? Yeah we're good?
Julia Malcolmson 05:16
Yeah, we're good.
Kartika Alexandra 05:19
And I will do my best not to bring up anything as I asked questions and you know, give examples.
Martin O'Toole 05:25
Well feel free. That's that's one of the nice dynamics, I think of Jules being the co host on the show now, because we can we do you know, we still we still share life, I still wear my heart on my sleeve. And I usually tend to check with Jules now in advance of the episode. Do you mind if I say this? Whenever I say that, because you know, I just say anything.
Julia Malcolmson 05:43
You actually would, wouldn't you?
Martin O'Toole 05:47
Yeah, absolutely. But it's good. So yeah, well, so we're gonna talk about relationships. Now, the first thing we thought we'd do, we would kick off discussing divorce, just for a quick moment or so, because we did some research, didn't we, just as a litmus test on what's happening in the world, and you've got some facts and figures, haven't you?
Julia Malcolmson 06:06
I do. So according to a British law firm, there was 122% increase in divorce enquiries, between July and October and 2020. And then some countries, statistics 50% of marriages in the US, and then divorce 42% In the UK, 87% in Luxembourg, it's not going well in Luxembourg, 65% in Spain, and 18%. In Malaysia, like why is this? I mean, it's big!
Kartika Alexandra 06:40
It is. Do you have any stats about Finland, Norway?
Julia Malcolmson 06:43
No, actually, we don't.
Martin O'Toole 06:44
Why? Why do you ask?
Kartika Alexandra 06:45
That's quite interesting, because there's a there's a different discussion going around about masculine feminine equality, and how this deeply impacts the way in how we feel fulfilled in our relationships. And you know, Norway, and these kinds of countries are very much about equality in every single way. And so there's different reasons that are being explained for those who are in Finland, Norway versus those who are in places like the US. And Asia, of course, you know, like in India and places like that. There's different cultural variables.
Martin O'Toole 07:16
That's a fair point. We didn't get into that, did we? I suppose also, excuse me, if you think about it, that was when middle of 2020
Kartika Alexandra 07:22
COVID.
Martin O'Toole 07:23
Yeah, so this was locked down, right?
Kartika Alexandra 07:24
Totally.
Martin O'Toole 07:25
Did they have locked down in Luxembourg?
Kartika Alexandra 07:28
Small little place.
Martin O'Toole 07:30
I reckon it was like a serious lockdown in Luxembourg. Oh I feel for you guys.
Julia Malcolmson 07:34
That's tough for people that isn't it, you know, you're suddenly spending all day every day with your partner?
Kartika Alexandra 07:40
Yes.
Martin O'Toole 07:41
Well you must have you spoke Have you dealt with anybody talk wanting to talk about that?
Kartika Alexandra 07:45
Absolutely.
Martin O'Toole 07:46
Tell us some stories. Furniture?
Kartika Alexandra 07:47
In the beginning of COVID, the work that we do as hypnotherapist here at my job, our work increased, I mean, the way I saw it, I went from about one to two months waitlist to four to five months, waitlist. And a lot of this had to do with the elements that were brought up, of course, projecting in some extent towards the partner because we're stuck together. But it had to do with their elements that they couldn't handle now that they can go out and handle their tendencies in other ways, like socially with friends or drinking. And so the dynamic got quite unhealthy, you know, as they didn't have the tools to work with their partner, day in and day out. Nevermind those who were already in quite unhealthy and to the extreme of toxic and abusive relationships. And it got really hard. Yes, it was the amount of anxiety everything in it. Of course, if you don't have the tools to deal with it, we generally will release it to our environment. Our partners, children, animals, unconsciously or consciously Yeah, that too. Yeah, and so that really did go up quite a lot. And they always came back to that element. Those who were alone, though, also felt the increase, but definitely I saw way more people who were in a relationship.
Martin O'Toole 09:02
Now it's interesting, because I didn't I suppose it's the nature perhaps it's a cultural thing again, but it's the nature of, of people who do have relationship problems or personal problems. If they're not going to discuss them openly. Anyway, then they're certainly not going to discuss the fact that everyone went crazy during during COVID. So I don't I didn't really I didn't see people talking or hear people talking too much about how they wanted to strangle their husbands or wives or partners. It was more actually the single people who I know. She lived in London. Quite a few of my friends really suffered in London because they've had that serious lockdown. They couldn't go anywhere. Yes. And London is a you know, it's quite a lonely place anyway, despite it being full of people. Yes. And so yeah, a lot of my friends suffered from some mental health issues. As a result.
Kartika Alexandra 09:57
New York, London, these major cities were done. Definitely patterns. We saw patterns among the team, of course, heightened depression, you know, feeling stifled, which brought up memories from the past that hadn't been processed, you know, and it can have no control to get out. No form of connection that they would rely on, you know, quite as we know, social creatures. And there's only so much you can do through the TV or the computer screen.
Julia Malcolmson 10:22
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 10:23
Yeah. Yeah. You want them in front of you doing?
10:26
And so it brought up loneliness, all kinds of levels and what desires and what they wanted to experience. Yeah, it's fascinating. And it's, it was very overwhelming for most people
Martin O'Toole 10:39
I can imagine. I wonder. So on the one hand, obviously, it was bad for all of these relationships. But on the other hand, was it good? It actually did a load of pressure cookers pop? And people finally say, oh, I need to list all the things I hate about you. Did that actually then air a lot of truths?
Julia Malcolmson 10:59
And then deal with it? That makes sense.
Martin O'Toole 11:01
Hang on a minute, we've been married 20 years and you never said that? Well, I've never had to stay in a house this long with you, you bastard. You know, you can imagine that.
Kartika Alexandra 11:08
Yeah. So turns out to be hard, right? I don't I can't I wish I had looked at my notes. But there were several people I know who did get divorced after this. Because I realised actually, we worked so well, because we did not need to stay together all the time. I had my life you had your life. And now we're here and we're stuck. And actually, we don't like each Yeah, we don't like each other enough to be in this dynamic. And what is life about, you know, if this happens again, and so let's just go our own ways. So there was quite a bit of that realisation that this is not the person I actually would like to be with. And now that there is a chance for me to feel that and see that and deal with it. I don't think it's going to work.
Martin O'Toole 11:45
By that rationale. It was freeing for some people.
Kartika Alexandra 11:47
Yeah, of course, it's quite confronting. You have your whole system set up and you don't know. You don't know how long COVID is gonna go for. And then now it's a whole life change. I think the ones that had the hardest were the children, because they're not the ones who have the capacity to cope or have the skills maybe or the outlet to get out. So if mom is feeling uncomfortable, father's feeling uncomfortable and dynamic is unhealthy. That was the priority actually, parents who had children because if that dynamic is unhealthy, it will they knew
Martin O'Toole 12:16
That was going to affect the family unit. Ah that's good. It's very least that's conscious of them. Yeah, well, we didn't do too, but they did we?
Julia Malcolmson 12:25
Yeah, but we we kind of got together not that long before COVID. So we've kind of only ever really known...
Martin O'Toole 12:33
Known each other in Covid.
Julia Malcolmson 12:34
24/7.
Martin O'Toole 12:35
Yeah, that's
Kartika Alexandra 12:35
That's amazing.
Martin O'Toole 12:36
Yeah, we were lucky like that. And of course, we were in Bali. Yeah,
Julia Malcolmson 12:41
Yeah, we've been in the bubble.
Martin O'Toole 12:42
We've been in the bubble. You granted there have been some mandates here. But as as we all know, it's not been anywhere near as severe and certainly in we were in Sanur in the house on the beach. Big House. Big garden.
Julia Malcolmson 12:56
We had space.
Martin O'Toole 12:57
Yeah
Kartika Alexandra 12:58
Amazing.
Martin O'Toole 12:58
Nobody was policing.
Julia Malcolmson 12:59
But it was also our honeymoon period.
Martin O'Toole 13:01
Yeah, yeah. Truth. But then we... I still think we've done all right. We actually we went to live in Turkey for six months. Of course.
Kartika Alexandra 13:08
I think I saw that on your Instagram. That's so wonderful. During COVID?
Julia Malcolmson 13:12
Yeah, we wanted we wanted some snow. And some we just have this dream about wearing jumpers and all weather and
Martin O'Toole 13:18
Socks and log fires.
Kartika Alexandra 13:20
Oh my God.
Julia Malcolmson 13:21
You know, like most people would go on holiday, but we moved.
Martin O'Toole 13:24
With hindsight, we should have just gone on holiday because we did literally give away a lot of stuff and fly to Turkey, spend a few months there realise we didn't want to live in Turkey and then we came.
Kartika Alexandra 13:38
That's amazing.
Martin O'Toole 13:39
But Turkey was different Turkey was turkey. tested me a little bit, I think.
Julia Malcolmson 13:45
Yeah, I think it did.
Martin O'Toole 13:46
The military police were a bit grumpy about no masks and stuff like that.
Julia Malcolmson 13:49
Yeah, it didn't last long did it?
Martin O'Toole 13:50
No. So I suppose I'm grateful for that, because we were quite lucky. But but obviously a lot of people were less so. But we also did some more research, didn't we into some of the reasons as I'm writing some of the reasons why relationships fail.
Julia Malcolmson 14:07
There's some common reasons I got five. So number one is withdrawing during arguments. And number two is not being on the same page with like life decisions, the big stuff. Number three, holding your partner to unrealistic standards. Number four afraid of being alone. So staying despite the issues in the relationship. And number five was relying on body language to convey your feelings. So they kind of came up I think it was the American Psychological Association person they published that as like the top top five.
Martin O'Toole 14:45
Yeah the main reason and before we dive into them into them I meant to ask you: can you hear us okay?
Kartika Alexandra 14:48
Absolutely.
Martin O'Toole 14:49
Even over these two loud shirts?
Kartika Alexandra 14:55
I see and hear even better.
Julia Malcolmson 14:59
You have been dying to say that.
Martin O'Toole 15:03
I actually had that joke in the car, or the lady on the right here. Sorry.
Julia Malcolmson 15:09
Can I take it off now? I'm really hot.
Martin O'Toole 15:11
You can take it off now. And then let's dive into these these these reasons for falling out. What was the first one withdrawing during arguments. Is that internalisation?
Kartika Alexandra 15:24
Yes. And yes, actually, but it can also be led by so many different reasons. Generally speaking, though, when someone is the drawing, we have to see if this is a pattern that they've had their whole life. Usually that will come from something that they've imprinted by parents or culture, like Indonesia, we don't really some parts of Indonesia, you don't speak back, you don't express, you just submit. And so that can be considered withdrawing. So there's cultural elements to it. But generally, if we look at something that they've done their whole life, this will be something from childhood or culture or society. But people will also also withdraw, if they're in a very highly stressed period of their life, you know, you don't have a lot of energy. So when someone comes in with that kind of issue, and they finding that they can't be in a relationship, because they can't even communicate, we have to see if this is a period of burnout, perhaps, or some major loss or something. And if that's the case, we're not looking at their main communication style, this is something that's happening only right now. But if it's a long something, they've done all the relationships, you know, and they have blocks and their throats and all these kinds of things. And we're looking at something that's fundamentally been the way they tendency to be a communication pattern for their whole life. And of course, as I think you know, already, if we cannot communicate, there is no vulnerability, intimacy, connection and depth. Yeah. And ultimately, that will fizzle out. If we can't maintain that depth with a communication.
Martin O'Toole 16:48
It's kind of the essence, isn't it? I wonder how it is? Do you find it difficult to draw that out of some people that is to say, to, to get them to realise that actually, yeah, this is a lifelong issue. It's not just that this person issue, you know, who's the common denominator in? Does the problem come out? Is it Do you have? Do you have to dig deep for that one?
Kartika Alexandra 17:10
No. They own up. And it's, of course, when a dynamic where they're looking at me to ask them the question, so they're much more open. But even those who are a bit resistant, when you ask a question in communication, here you go, when you ask it in a certain way, and it's inviting, people will want to open up, I still have the fundamental belief, because from the work I do, that we do want release, we do want to let go. And so when there's an invitation in the setup in the right way, the conditions are there, we will do it. So it's also the job that therapist or hypnotherapist to invite that conversation. Many times, we can't say it's their, like responsibility or fault or tendency to have caused this problem. But it's already there. And so one of the ways to do it is to bring it more to the surface by asking indirect questions. And when I say with my students in my team here, we're like when it's right, then you ask the question, if you ask it too soon, no, no, I'm done me. It's just this person. He's too forceful or something. Right? So it's important to really work with that carefully. Because defence mechanisms can come up all kinds of things can come up. But generally speaking, when you're in that position, and first of all, you're seeing hypnotherapist most people see us only at last resort. They're like, Oh, God, I have to open up my subconscious unconscious, then we're going to be able to work with something. Yeah. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 18:32
I actually I asked you the other day didn't I? I asked you how we were doing what we will what I was, perhaps what I was not doing. Yeah,
Julia Malcolmson 18:41
It's important to have those check ins, isn't it?
Martin O'Toole 18:43
Yeah. This is like
Kartika Alexandra 18:44
Definitely
Martin O'Toole 18:45
totally new to me say all of this stuff. You can obviously remember my story. This is my first proper relationship as a proper relationship. That's that's an unfair thing to say about my previous partners, but but this is my first Martin version. Two point zeros. There's probably no Yeah.
Julia Malcolmson 19:03
How's it going?
Martin O'Toole 19:05
I'm enjoying myself. What about you?
Julia Malcolmson 19:06
Yeah it's great.
Martin O'Toole 19:07
Should we go through this list?
Kartika Alexandra 19:08
Keep on going! I'm listening. How's it going?
Martin O'Toole 19:13
Any of these other things or factors?
Julia Malcolmson 19:16
What was the next one? Not being on the same page with my decisions.
Kartika Alexandra 19:21
This is I'm being I'm being biassed This is not a this is totally anecdotal. But this is one of the biggest issues I see in most relationships is that the big conversations are not had. It's something that fits right now it feels good. But if we really going to talk about what we want in our relationship in our life, children what religion is going to we're going to have with the family, financial not being on the same page is exactly what I see could be if we had talked about that, that can be avoided for all the suffering and the arguments and the fights and ultimately divorce so far out of my friends that I know quite well and many of my clients It is this discussion, this discussion to get on the same page that I feel would have aligned the values, the integrity, everything so that you can create a conscious relationship. But it's incredible because we don't want to face that since if we are not on the same page, we may not stay together. So let's just look the other way. And here's an avoidance of seeing truth, working with it, facing it. This is, I believe, fundamentally a human condition. We just don't want to look at it. You know, it's painful. So we don't look at it, and we'll deal with it later. But these things, to have a conscious relationship, we must actually it's a requirement to do.
Julia Malcolmson 20:36
Yeah, I saw a post on that recently, actually, it said, Love isn't enough. Yeah. So isn't enough for a successful relationship. You've got to have the big discussions. First, what are your values? What do you want from your future? How do you see your life financially? Like it's so important.
Martin O'Toole 20:51
I've got no problem with that, though. I, I know there is a school of thinking that it's a little bit scary to people if a new partner says, What's your position on having children? What's your position on buying a house? What's your position on that? But perhaps it's an age thing actually come to think of it. We had quite pragmatic conversation, early doors, because, as you wrongly identified this morning, I'm nearly 50. I'm 46, Kartika!
Kartika Alexandra 21:21
How old did you think he was? Well no, I know how old he was—is. But his but during the conversation, I don't know how it slipped out. But I just said, like, I'm in my mid 30s. And you're in your mid 50s. And it just kind of fowed off the tongue.
Martin O'Toole 21:34
Mid 50s!? Somebody told me the other day like the market ageing, like a fine wine, Martin. She says I'm in my mid 50s.
Kartika Alexandra 21:44
Same page.
Martin O'Toole 21:46
But I think we had a lot of those conversations. I think I can understand why people wouldn't but then I do wonder, you know, we were talking about this other day, we had a chap on the is on today's episode, actually, Chuck called Josh Campbell. And he's a he's a young chap his mid 20s is, so he's a Millennials Conscious Dating Coach, which is quite a fascinating to be in. And I don't know, if you, if you find yourself talking to people in their 20s more than you do. Well, that's like a whole other world isn't this is when it comes to dating, because they're all dating using these these digital devices. Yeah, and the whole process view some of the things he was telling me, I'm going, Man, I'm old man, I'm definitely in my 50s. Because, because I couldn't quite understand. I do understand that. So I'm not mocking people in that situation. But for me, it's alien that, that you have to go through that whole dating process using a screen. And then you become content creators don't you know, it's all about getting the right angle. And it's all about crafting the right profile and crafting the right responses. And I know there are nightmarish stories of, of predatory people using the same process, you know, the same sort of hotline and sinker messaging process. So I'm glad I'm not in my 20s dating and gotta tell ya, it's absolutely terrifying what's going on there. But of course, that's that, that process may well avoid some of these big questions, I think
Julia Malcolmson 23:14
Well, yeah. And but the big stuff becomes really important as you get older, doesn't it? You know, so I think sometimes in your 20s, you might not actually be quite as Sure. And things change, we all change and you, you can grow and change together. But those big decisions might change again. But I think once you get to your kind of mid 30s, you're a bit more certain of what you do and don't want. So when you're dating, I think it's a bit more like, it's, I'm not giving up on this. This is a
Kartika Alexandra 23:42
This is a need. And this is a want and this one I'm not moving. But um, yeah, in all fairness, I think when you're 20 you're still exploring who you are, what you like, what you don't like. And of course, there's different types of these profiles. You know, if you have something not that Tinder is bad, but if you have to make Tinder, it's less precise than something like the pattern. The pattern has a dating component where you say, yeah, yeah, so you can see if you complex match, or I think now the ones extraordinary match, which means that you really could get along quite well. This brings in you know, the astrology I believe numerology and different components of your characteristics. Whereas Tinder is quite visually and based on the environment, which, by the way on the psychology side, and studies they show that that's really the key element is you have to be within the certain radius, you know, read to me Second of all, there has to be actual point of contact. So the chances of me meeting someone in Lombok, I mean our 00 evenness, I go there and we have some chances to cross. So Tinder has set up itself based on like the findings of studies. And of course, on the symmetrical elements of the face. These are all the conditions that usually we need to have a kind of attraction. Yeah, and so that's that's one way but then you have some more detailed, precise apps that will cut out all the trial and errors, you know, which of course you can lie on if you want. But yeah, did those cut them out like The Pattern I'm not advocating I'm not being not being sponsored by The Pattern or anything like that
Martin O'Toole 25:15
You will be after the show. If anyone from the marketing department of The Pattern is listening, feel free to ask us for Kartika's details. Yeah The Pattern, actually we should explain what The Pattern is because The Pattern is an app which I sometimes I'm a guide and use it for a while but when I was using it, I used to think what is going on here. This is black magic, because the stuff that the pattern knows, is next level. And I think it takes a Numerology as you say, in astrology. So it's it's a it's it's a different way of of garnering data from you and then gathering data from others to to explain how you may well interact. Yeah, that's about right, isn't it?
Kartika Alexandra 25:56
Yeah. And this is actually quite fascinating. And I know this may be a little bit out there for some people. But there is an element that comes into relationships, that for some people will say, Hey, you are only going to get attracted to the same kinds of people until something changes fundamentally like if you you know, do some deep healing or in a work. But there's an element that you're born with a certain type of frequency, astrology is one of the examples. Numerology is another one, there's so many types like this. And that gives you a certain type of, let's say, vibration, and I understand this is a bit out there, but that vibration will tend to be attracted to this vibration. And that's just the way it is just like molecules, you know, hydrogen, and oxygen to have the mineral be happy and make a little hydrogen I mean water molecule. So there's this kind of element of the fractal elements of relationships and dynamics and attraction and balancing, because ultimately, we're looking for balance, and that we can not instruct signs, but an alternative ways. Watch and see what those patterns are based on these energies. And so there is a tendency and a literal pattern for people to say, I always tend to pick this kind of person, you know, or that's the kind of type by like, of course, if usually, even in the work we do here, we see quite a lot. That's my pattern. We heal something in childhood or the first boyfriend the first heartbreak that they have forgotten about completely. They live 20 years and they go and properly grieve that heartbreak changes their pattern and their desires because it changes the vibration. So there are ways we could see if this person that's why in in China, Chinese and Indian, they also look at these things before they have arranged marriages, to see what's the suitability and compatibility. So the pattern itself that the app itself is doing something that Indians and Chinese and traditions have been doing for so long,
Martin O'Toole 27:48
Very clever, or I don't I don't know where it's designed, but it is very clever.
Julia Malcolmson 27:52
Maybe we should check our compatibility on The Pattern.
Kartika Alexandra 27:56
Yes. Whatever. Whatever it is, it is.
Martin O'Toole 28:01
Do you have to change the—If you've changed, do you have to change your settings in a pattern I can't remember or is it?
Kartika Alexandra 28:07
It's just your name and your birth date?
Martin O'Toole 28:09
Wowsers-trousers, okay. Well, the numbers don't lie. If it says, I've got to leave, then I'm afraid I've got to go. Okay. It's been real. What's next on the?
Kartika Alexandra 28:21
I'm not ready for that yet. So I'd love to see more of you both.
Martin O'Toole 28:24
Yeah. Well, maybe next time. Next time we meet for another session, we'll, we'll talk about our Pattern
Julia Malcolmson 28:29
We'll do it. Will be interesting.
Martin O'Toole 28:32
But also, just remember, everything is impermanent. What's next on the list, my love?
Julia Malcolmson 28:39
So romantic. Holding your partner to unrealistic standards.
Kartika Alexandra 28:44
Oh, yeah
Martin O'Toole 28:44
Ah, like being romantic?
Julia Malcolmson 28:47
I don't think that's unrealistic. Thank you.
Kartika Alexandra 28:52
Sorry, Martin. I agree with her.
Martin O'Toole 28:53
It’s okay, I I I bow to this.
Kartika Alexandra 28:57
Yeah, that's a great one, right? A lot of the, I call them fantasies or dreams that we have. And when we uphold someone to that standard is because of the unprocessed trauma that we've had in the past trauma being small or big T trauma. We create these scenes and these ideas when we're in those states, and we latch on to them as a coping mechanism. Now, I know a lot of people may be upset with what I'm saying. But we have this unrealistic perspective of the world and ourselves. And of course, to face breaking that reality means we have to face the pain we have in process and that's more painful. So we stay with that and we try to fit into this illusion that we've created. Yeah, and that would be definitely along the lines. So as we again, do the inner work or do the trauma release or whatever it is. We tend to be more in touch with reality as it is and there's no unrealistic expectation. That being said, of course, we also have to learn to conscious knowledge, you know that someone who's grown up in Asia again, back to culture, they have different 10 And season in communication and a Russian, you know, who are very direct. Indonesians are very passive. So we have those things. But yeah, that's really amazing to hear that I am. I've actually, I've felt that before many times.
Julia Malcolmson 30:14
I suppose that's where it comes in the communication again, and communicating your needs, knowing each other's needs and discussing what you both want. And yeah, and if it's something that's unattainable, then that's where the issue is, but you might be able to compromise and help each other find those needs to find the balance.
Kartika Alexandra 30:32
Yeah, yes.
Martin O'Toole 30:34
And I'll, I'll just throw in the Buddhist perspective, and that is just don't have any expectations of anything. You know, it's kind of, I suppose, I know, it was a Trump smash of a partner in my 20s and 30s. I was a tornado, and not the sort of worst partner any woman could could want. Although they did want me unfortunately, because as we I think we've discussed before, I was a narcissistic, Machiavellian, sneaky, sort of charmer, I suppose. Because I just wanted intimacy. But I it was a, it was a perverse version of intimacy. Actually, I just wanted to cuddle, I was going about it the wrong way. But I remember often being selected by women, because I was a bad lad. Or what's the other expression, you know, the kind of that kind of naughty guy, they liked that bad boy, bad boy, that's the expression. They liked that until such time as we were in some sort of relationship. And then of course, they didn't like that. And then they would try to change me. And I had a number of relationships like this, where I remember even having the conversation, you know, because I tend to do that. And, and they, they, a couple of these women were staying with me in the hope that they could change me convert me into you know, a nicer person mould you into the perfect partner. Exactly. And of course, they couldn't unfortunately, so I apologise profusely to all of you for the actions of Martin version 1.0. But ultimately, I had to do that word didn't know and I and but this is something I was talking to Josh the other day about, is we must accept co responsibility in these in these arrangements as well. So yes, yeah, Martin was Martin and he was a transmission should have come with a some sort of public health warning. Sometimes did in fact, but actually that was attractive to some people, but at the same time, you know, the, the the other person in that relationship who is trained to do the changing, I think needs to accept responsibility. You shouldn't want to do that.
Julia Malcolmson 32:51
But then also why what's going on with their pattern that they want to go for the bad boy or the narcissist tendencies? It does pull in a certain type of person?
Kartika Alexandra 33:01
One hundred per cent. Yeah, so this is quite a hot topic, right? I mean, especially last year, the narcissist toxic the Narcissist gaslighting, it's not that it's not important, but it's definitely become very big right now everyone's using those words, and maybe doing it too much actually, and applying that in so many ways. But that being said, again, it may upset some people. But when someone comes to me, and they say they're very rarely does someone come to do inner healing work as a full blown narcissist, those are not the people who think they need help. But when those people come in, they have the awareness that's one thing, but the woman or the men who have been in a toxic relationship that they consider narcissistic, it is generally more than not the case that we have to look at what has even allowed you to be attracted to this. Because if you have the fundamental understanding of what's healthy and unhealthy, or you know what feels good as a woman or as a man masculine, feminine, whichever way you want to go with it, you can identify that this is not making me feel good. anxiety, worry, nervousness, attachment. And so generally we have that awareness now if you don't have that, usually we have to look at something in the past now before everybody hates me because I'm saying that we have to look at that and it's always your fault. And I have to say that there are some people who just did not understand that what a healthy relationship is it didn't have the imprint. So they didn't have the fundamentals you know of that no one taught them or they never saw that imprint. So there are people like that who just unfortunately we're vulnerable at that time and that's what happened but generally sick let's find out how you did not know what is going to be healthy what's going to nourish you was going to allow you to grow or in Yeah, and there is an element that of that and that's ultimately it because we can't change the narcissist what can we change is always back right so there is a question.
Martin O'Toole 34:49
Well, the narcissist generally doesn't know they're a narcissist, do they? So I suppose they have to want to change themselves. And I found myself having this conversation recently. My advisor As to anyone stuck in a relationship with a narcissist is is genuine generally genuinely get out. If you are continuing continuously returning through this this cycle of abuse obviously different scales of abuse depending on the on the the two people involved. Why? Why are you putting yourself through it? And again, that's that I think that's that's that want to change someone where you can't you just can't change them the best thing unless they're fully willing to accept responsibility. Okay, you're right, actually, I have got a problem. I do need to do something about it. I do need to go and see Kartika and discuss it. I just I just think it's a real it's a bad idea. And it's a loop. It's a toxic loop.
Kartika Alexandra 35:46
That's the advice. Get out. There's no way. By the time they actually feel they have to change or something, then they're not really considered, like clinically a narcissist or anything like that anyways, you know? Yeah, definitely, it's better to get out and leave. The pattern that we see, when we're talking to shadow work here archetypal sense is that you tend to have a rescuer who's going to be joining a narcissist, because they're fulfilling this shadow role that I'm going to save you from the pain that you're in causing everyone and the pain you're causing me. There's a kind of rich, rescuer archetype that's leading the whole show subconsciously, of course, not for everyone, of course, you know, and more clinically, we call that codependency or something like that. But the sense of worth is so tied into rescuing the other. And so if we deal with that, usually they're like, Wow, what was I thinking? Yeah, immediately when the rescuer is out, and usually has to do with the past dynamic. And they're just replaying it out. Because the subconscious unconscious is going to continue on into this present day. Whether you consciously remember this moment or not something you haven't processed properly in the past. So the rescuer kicks in. This is a perfect, perfect project for me to make right what I didn't do back there. Yeah, you know, whenever that was my mom, my dad, my brother, my ex boyfriend, my ex boyfriend, and do this here with someone who I know will not change, no matter who tells me this, I will do this because this will give me that sense of re establishing my sense of self worth or whatever it can be. So the rescuer is a big role when we look at people who are with narcissists
Martin O'Toole 37:20
And see them as a project. But of course, if you if you look at Karpman's Drama Triangle, the rescuer enters the golden triangle of pain. And then at some point along the journey, it flips the roles flip, and you've gone from being the rescuer of a victim or even a rescuer of a persecutor in that context to becoming their victim.
Kartika Alexandra 37:41
Yep, yep.
Martin O'Toole 37:42
I talk about this a lot.
Kartika Alexandra 37:43
Yeah, it's fascinating. You have that also in the healing world, you know, people who want to be rescuers because they want to help people, and they want to help whatever it was into they want to help others, coaches, healers, therapists, and then it's a very thin line where they become narcissists, actually in prey is a very thin line that that line, so the rescuing and then the ego ticks in and they do this. That's where you have all kinds of, you know, unfortunate stories about people abusing their authority or power sexually, you know, emotionally financially.
Martin O'Toole 38:13
It makes a lot sense.
Julia Malcolmson 38:14
It does, and sadly, we hear those stories a lot
Kartika Alexandra 38:17
In Bali?
Julia Malcolmson 38:18
No, just in the healing world in general. Yeah. Yeah.
Kartika Alexandra 38:21
Yeah, sure.
Julia Malcolmson 38:22
That's good one.
Martin O'Toole 38:23
What else is on the list?
Julia Malcolmson 38:26
Afraid of being alone. So staying despite the issues in the relationship?
Kartika Alexandra 38:31
Yeah... Deep wound there. But I think that goes for any fear that we have anything. Again, this is going to sound boring to everyone. But it's the same wounds that are from the subconscious unconscious.
Martin O'Toole 38:42
Well basically because everything you're saying, alludes to the fact that if you're experiencing these things, you have to do some work.
Kartika Alexandra 38:49
Yeah, ultimately, yeah, actually. Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 38:53
That's why we're having the conversation. So yeah, I mean, it might sound boring, because you don't want to hear professional tell you that you probably need to do some work, but you probably do.
Kartika Alexandra 39:04
Yeah. That fear of being alone will drive everything in your life, how you take a job, how you settle into a contract with the employers, how you have relationships, if that's driving your life, I mean, if you look at the core driver of the energy of the fuel in our mind, if that's what's driving our life, and we determine everything around that emptiness, the results of that generally, when I see clients like this, especially very successful men, multimillionaires, billionaires, they've done all of this. And it was driven by this lack of sense of emptiness or loneliness or low self sense, that sense of worth. When that kind of thing drives life. It always ends up being unhealthy in the end. And it's unfortunate because these men are much older now and they've lost their family. They've lost their friends. They made a lot of money. And this is a pattern I see consistently. And that that drives them to get overly maybe you can say greedy or stingy or or or something like that. And they get to that point, and they realise that this was what was driving them. So distraction. Yeah, and as compensation, you know, so to manage that, but of course, it's not for all of them. And that being said, if you're driven by, let's say, not just gratitude, by a sense of fulfilment, you know, presence and joy, mean the kind of energy you put out the kind of things you tolerate the kind of relationships, you get into jobs, you take changes everything, you know, everything. You wouldn't settle for a lot of things when that's there. Just now we had a session with someone who has deep sense of emptiness. And that drives and, of course, very wealthy man, family and everything and quite ill at this time, same story. You know, it was a divorce when the father left the moment him at three years old, he's 40 year old man, and that emptiness, the sadness, psycho heaviness, he felt that everything in life, but sure enough, has a lot of money has everything else, you know? Yeah. And so releasing that will hopefully help. Just everything
Julia Malcolmson 41:06
Completely life changing to release.
Kartika Alexandra 41:09
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 41:10
Well, should shoot out for the listeners that at no point are my mocking people, or a week even making light of people who are suffering from these any of these issues. I just read that. And I'm the first person to say that I can't possibly judge because part and parcel of what I do on this show every week is usually admit to some shortcoming that I've had in the past or even last week, if needs be. So that the point is that it's okay to admit that you have these problems. And I think this probably stems back to the stigma of people admitting that they're having some mental health issues and the stigma of, of being seen as weak, perhaps, emotionally weak, mentally weak. In a world where quite clearly, we have so many pressures on us to to stay you stay in stand strong. Yeah. But the reality is, all of this stuff on this list is like human traits. Yeah, we all know, none of us assume we don't have the superpowers to just avoid or
Julia Malcolmson 42:20
No, and we've all got parts of us to heal.
Martin O'Toole 42:23
Exactly.
Julia Malcolmson 42:23
And that's why that's one of the main reasons we talk about this. But you know, we're not we didn't all get off scot free. We've all got something in there that we need to work through. And just being aware of it. That's the first step isn't it.
Kartika Alexandra 42:35
It is and actually is very just normal. It's actually normal. This is all normal, the the frustrations, the struggles, this is all normal. I mean, of course, if you're dealing with everyday and you're working with clients all the time, it becomes normal, but we it's actually very normal is nothing at all. And I have to say me before when I first started on my journey, maybe even before I was a hypnotherapist, I never even would have admitted that I had an issue. In fact, I had no idea that I had trapped anger, my very dear friend, Luke Hancock, we were in Kyoto. And he was like, you know, Karthika, you may have an anger issue. It is. So I was, I was 19 I think we're bicycling up and say, you may have an anger issue, because based on this one book, I was reading the signs, whatever, something and I, I was like, I don't have a king anger issue. Like I went all out. And he looked at me, and we're on the bike. And I was like, seriously, what have I went on? And so, and I remember looking back, and I had no awareness that that was already a sign of it.
Martin O'Toole 43:38
Yeah, that's, that's an anger issue right there!
Kartika Alexandra 43:40
Right there. So So anyways, of course, and I went to see my one of my teachers and he became a longtime teacher. And he looked at me said, you have to go into your bones and heal your bones, because—this is Pak Merta Ada—I mean, would you do with that? I don't you mean go with my bones. But the point of that was more so because the anger was trapped there. To make a point of this is that when anyone would have told me this, I was like, No way. Sure enough, fast forward 15 years. Wow. And you know, it's incredible. Now, it's just all normal. And it's not that it's okay to have painful experiences and all that that is all Yeah, this is fine. You're fine, even suicidal ideation, but it's quite normal. You know, we really are under a lot of stress. When you're under a lot of stress. These things happen, you know, you feel lonely, you've driven by that.
Martin O'Toole 44:25
And of course, and this even goes for the narcissists. By the way, a lot of this stuff happens in the formative years. A lot of lot of this so a lot of these traumas occur, when it definitely wasn't your fault. You know, you might have been for you might have been to, you might have been in the womb literally. And, and I it's something I'm always quite keen to point out as I'm in a conversation about narcissists, in particular on the last episode and, and the point I was trying to make was, it might be difficult for you to feel For them, especially if you're a victim of narcissism, but just as an aside, do try to remember that they were a victim of something first. That doesn't make it alright, that but it might might actually help you process it. Because a lot of victims of narcissism and gaslighting, and people who can't communicate in general, you do find yourself questioning yourself that you do think, what am I doing wrong? I'm really I'm really trying to do this. I'm trying to make this relationship work, but I can't and you see, find yourself questioning yourself? Well, you know, try not to do I think that's healthy, but but don't lay the blame at your own door, but then also try to remember that they were victims of something. Yes. Perhaps it's neglect, perhaps this abuse? Yes, a big T or a little T, as you said earlier on? So you know, in that regard, none of it's none of it's our fault. Some of it is definitely not our fault.
Julia Malcolmson 45:54
It's our responsibility, but definitely we can be accountable for things under the years of seven even onwards, you know? Like some of the things that unfolded even during COVID, you know, this, losing your job and all that all that stuff that brings up a lot of things that are external events that took place, you know?
Martin O'Toole 46:10
Mmm.... Out of your hands, that all that said, we do have a responsibility to fix it.
Kartika Alexandra 46:16
Yes.
Julia Malcolmson 46:17
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 46:17
I think that's we can all agree. What's the last point of the reason why people
Julia Malcolmson 46:23
Relying on body language to convey feelings.
Martin O'Toole 46:25
Well, I mean, we're not mind readers, are we?!
Julia Malcolmson 46:28
Why Not?
Kartika Alexandra 46:30
You know, I don't know. Can we talk about that for a moment, because I'm really more about body language than always, what's just being said, again, I'm going to, I'm so sorry, guys. But like in Japan, and in Asia, we look at body language to really identify what's being said. And we also rely on tonation. Right, more than anything. So um, yeah. And so I really look for body, but again, I'm doing that because I'm looking to see what's really being said, Well, I'm fine. You know, and like, the swag is all good smile, versus I'm fine. Yeah. Yeah. But of course, you have to listen to the words too.
Julia Malcolmson 47:03
I get that as well. I think I find that one a funny one. Yeah, relying on it. I suppose there's got to be a balance, you have to communicate your feelings. But I think it's so not obviously not everybody, but it's a generally I find it easy to read the way someone says something or the way their body reacts, as they say, and you're like, okay, that what you just did does not align with what you just said isn't match, your energy doesn't match. You're none of it matches,
Martin O'Toole 47:28
But you have good awareness.
Kartika Alexandra 47:32
And you're also a woman.
Martin O'Toole 47:34
Yeah, that's true. You're a woman with good awareness. Yeah. So you've got like the double intuition. Bonus. I, because I think it's fair to say that a lot of this does come down to a lack of awareness, doesn't it? Either self awareness, or empathy or care or concern for others around them. And again, as I say, that's not necessarily deliberate.
Julia Malcolmson 47:56
I suppose if you're wrapped up in yourself, and someone else is conveying something through body language, you're not going to notice, are you?
Martin O'Toole 48:03
Yeah, I'm surprised that that's one of the top five reasons why people break down
Kartika Alexandra 48:09
I wonder why values is not on there. You know?
Julia Malcolmson 48:11
Well, there's a whole list the list goes on this lack of compromise, comparison, lack of balance, holding on to the past, taking out anger on the other one. Okay. So it's a big exhaustive list.
Martin O'Toole 48:22
And communicate and lack of or just poor communication is not on there.
Julia Malcolmson 48:26
Yeah, I mean, we took this off quite a big list, didn't we? We took the top five off there.
Martin O'Toole 48:30
Yeah, we do communicate that actually. Is having a really bad memory on that list is one of your partners so I have gone I don't know what's going on. We're about to start we're drinking chicory infused with Reishi, Lion's Mane
Julia Malcolmson 48:48
No it's Reishi and Chaga and then I put Lion's Mane in it for your little brain.
Martin O'Toole 48:52
Yeah, my my brain's
Julia Malcolmson 48:53
I don't mean "little brain"!
Martin O'Toole 48:55
Wow! That guy in his 50s with the tiny brain... I mean, you know, I do encourage you to say what you what you what you think. So yeah, I don't know what's going on my brain's sort of leaking out my ears in some way.
Julia Malcolmson 49:10
But then I have the balance because I've got patience so I suppose you're forgetting things and I'm patient so kind of
Martin O'Toole 49:15
You—I forget things you remember them.
Kartika Alexandra 49:17
Match made in heaven!
Julia Malcolmson 49:19
I have a memory like an elephant. I don't forget anything. It's which isn't always great.
Martin O'Toole 49:24
No, I'm happy about it. So far. So good. It does work as a balance.
Kartika Alexandra 49:29
I get a criticism from my partner's, like, when I'm with one of them. I don't do many, all at once. They're like, how do you remember four months ago, at that one dinner when I said and I have really just preset like I can really recall that sentence the way you said with the body language.
Martin O'Toole 49:49
I can't believe you remember that I said that? Well, I'm really sorry to show a mirror. But yes, you did say that. Yeah, yeah. To die happy yeah. What's next?
Julia Malcolmson 50:12
Do you want to talk about how how the deathbed regrets actually fit into relationships and how when we looked at our death, because what the 10 deathbed regrets, and about explain that for the audience so that oh, sorry, I should actually you were better than me. But we have the 10 deathbed regrets, which is actually what inspired Martin originally to start this podcast and to, to die happy. So there we talk about the deathbed regrets, it's your it's your jam.
Martin O'Toole 50:42
That's a fair point. Well, yeah, I was inspired by by these things, because I part of my healing journey was realising that I evasive if somebody told me I was going to die three years ago, I would have had a, I would have had more than 10 deathbed regrets, it would have been a ridiculously long list. And so when I researched this and came across all the deathbed regrets, as I've said many times on this show, they're very sad. Yeah, no, they're, well, they're written. I was gonna say, there's a long list, but there are 10. And it's things like I wish I'd said I love you more. Yeah, I wish I'd had the courage to express my true feelings. You got some more on there? I think.
Julia Malcolmson 51:22
Yeah. So we've got I think about 60% of them really related to relationships. So kind of almost looking at these. There's little, there's already little tools in here for like, Okay, well, maybe I start bringing these into my relationships already. But it's, I wish I dare to live more truthfully. And obviously, we've talked about that a little bit how we're not always open in our relationships to share our truth and what we're really feeling or what we want
Martin O'Toole 51:47
Or more truthful with ourselves.
Julia Malcolmson 51:50
And then there's I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. I should have said I love you more. I wish I'd let go of grudges. I wish I left work at work and made time for my family and I wish I'd been the better person in conflicts
Martin O'Toole 52:07
And of course How To Die Happy is all about sharing stories and practical utilities for this so so how are we going to fix all that then Kartika? In ten minutes!
Kartika Alexandra 52:18
Actually... In 10 minutes?! MARTIN!
Martin O'Toole 52:23
I think it occurred to me that when we meet you again for another episode we could we could actually drill into one of these per episode
Kartika Alexandra 52:31
that'd be quite
Julia Malcolmson 52:32
Yeah, that would work.
Kartika Alexandra 52:33
I can prepare accordingly too.
Martin O'Toole 52:36
Anyway, we can we're not there yet. We're doing this episode. But
Kartika Alexandra 52:39
Hearing this actually makes me feel like I'm I need to say "I love you" to some people more and to leave work at work, that's for sure the case, I still fundamentally see that it goes back to our own blocks and sabotaging behaviours that are all conscious or unconscious. You know, if we are balanced beings, we wouldn't leave, bring work home. We would say I love you because we're in that present moment. And we are feeling what we're feeling as we're thinking and perceiving and interacting with the world. And we are being you know, and that's really about not being under the, in the traumas lens more so like being disregulated. You know, you're actually now here. So ultimately all comes back to being in that present, healthy state, nervous system, Mind Body, I believe that would naturally all alleviate, you know, being yourself only happens in that moment, when you're not in a disregulated state when you're not still trying to process too many things from the past. So ultimately, we can say love you. But when you get stressed, you will forget to do that you will go to your coping mechanisms. And so this is yeah, I will always go back to saying hey, let's release everything we can. So we can be present because this will naturally emerge with humans. If we look at the mind, and in harmonising the mind, which is also the body
Martin O'Toole 54:03
I think that's sound advice, I suppose from a practical utility perspective that the most obvious go to to be present is to breathe, meditate. Just to take those checkout moments. I'm I've been working quite hard lately. I've known him and I still I'll still make a point of just taking that moment to say I love you or to know even to observe myself working too hard. You know, I think we've got to work out we've got to work out yeah, sometimes is unavoidable but if you can just stop what you're doing and observe yourself doing it. Yeah, that in itself is is a good thing.
Julia Malcolmson 54:45
Yeah.
Kartika Alexandra 54:46
Yeah, maybe even having markers you know, oh, here I go. I'm doing that thing that I know. Because you can't catch yourself as you go into the stress mode. Usually, it's only after you know, and oh, here we go. Again. I'm starting to lose my keys if that's what the sign is, you know when you miss play things and usually not like that. Or may have just triggered something.
Martin O'Toole 55:06
Did you?
Kartika Alexandra 55:07
I'm just gonna drink my tea again
Martin O'Toole 55:08
Have you two been communicating prior?! Mate, I can't find the keys I-well, in my defence, right. The house we live in at the moment is three separate buildings. You know how that works in Valley village? Yeah, we've got four buildings—we've got two sets of keys and, and all the doors have different keys. Like I don't Is it a valley thing? Yeah. It's like, okay, they're all the same doors. They're all the same house. Why don't we just have like one key? No. So I'm like, I'm like a prison warden. You know, like, there's about five or six keys to now when I come when I as soon as I enter the residence, the resident die. I have to unlock all the doors. But then I can't find the damn key. I'm always losing keys, aren't I?
Julia Malcolmson 55:55
He never knows where the keys as we have one little pots and we name that the key pot. Always put your keys in the pot.
Kartika Alexandra 56:02
Does he do it? Yeah, I understand.
Julia Malcolmson 56:05
So when we try and leave the house, it's every time we leave the house cracks me up. When the dogs just laughed at we like we get to the get to the gate. Where the keys guessing Yes, the keys. Gets to the gate where the car keys guys to get the car keys.
Martin O'Toole 56:19
No, no! Where are the car keys? They're locked in one of the bloody rooms!
Kartika Alexandra 56:22
You gotta get your keys.
Martin O'Toole 56:25
Exactly.
Julia Malcolmson 56:26
Where's my wallet? Where's my glasses?
Martin O'Toole 56:28
In another room. Glasses are locked in one of the other rooms... I mean, it's exhausting for me, so God knows what it's like for you in the dogs. Yeah. Wow, we've been standing here for 45 minutes. Got a tan just waiting for the for the guy with Alzheimers. Anyhow, didn't trigger anything that...
Kartika Alexandra 56:49
Yes so it's good to have those markers. We can take another example if you want. You know, like when people forget to eat.
Martin O'Toole 56:55
I never forget to eat. I love my food.
Kartika Alexandra 56:57
Okay, there you go.
Julia Malcolmson 56:58
I forget to eat.
Kartika Alexandra 56:59
There you go. So when you're getting into when you're getting into stress, usually some some people will just forget to eat. I mean, they can go all day and people like What do you mean, we forget to go to the toilet, you know, and like all but that's just me being focused. Actually, when you're in tune in, you're in harmony and balance, you feel your body, you are in tune with your body, you go to the toilet, because your bladder feels a bit full. But when you're not, and you're in that state of hyper, which is, yeah, some people will debate that's fine, that's not. But if the body has to contain that kind of energy is not healthy and harmonious with the mind in the body, you can't really focus actually. So the point is to look at those markers, so we can avoid going down that hill and be as present as we can.
Martin O'Toole 57:36
I like the idea of present markers. Or of course, you could just arrange an appointment with Kartika, and she'll be able to help you out with some of those things.
Kartika Alexandra 57:46
Yeah, if Okay, I will say, like, I'm hesitant to say that one of the... My job is to make sure to find out what's really going on, you know, people will come in with, I want to stop smoking, but the real issue is not smoking, it's something else. And same with relationship problems, you know, so I have taken a bit of a different I've evolved a bit my practice to say, Listen, I only have one session with you, or three or five, depending on how many go with this, really look at what we really need to look at, you know, if it's that, so I hope people they were going to they want to actually see the the what they have to look at.
Martin O'Toole 58:25
That's something you liked about what Kartika had to say on her website.
Julia Malcolmson 58:30
I think it was on your website that you say and it's I've read it oh, here it is. It's very also very important for me to help resolve the issue as fast as possible. Because I do believe that a better world starts with a healthier and happier individual. And it's so nice and refreshing to have, you know, someone who it's not about getting you every week for the next 10 years of your life. And we'll talk through things you know, you want to get them in and he'll heal quick as you can.
Kartika Alexandra 58:55
Yeah. My advisor was like, What do you mean, you're gonna have a business like this?
Martin O'Toole 59:00
This is your business advisor? You can't just get them in and heal them
Kartika Alexandra 59:04
This is not smart. Totally. I was like, no, no, no, my value is that there's so much suffering and I remember when I was suffering and I didn't have first maybe the financials and the tools. And I did not like to say you were going to benefit off of my suffering. That was really the irony of it all is I did speak to my advisor and it's been many years have been doing this I was like see, there is no need to make people stay in that mentality in that it's actually goes against my values anyways. But um, when you really know how to fix something like a car, why would you take it? I mean, some people do do that their business. But if you can help someone be happy. I mean, how quickly that spreads, you know, and that family in the car feels happy. The way they get to everything is going to be way better. And that's what I'm looking for. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 59:51
Well, notwithstanding that the fact that you do that means that people like me refer lots of people to you and say, you know, literally one session changed my life. And I think
Kartika Alexandra 1:00:02
Mmmm, thank you Martin.
Martin O'Toole 1:00:03
Thank you. Yeah, I mean, no. Yeah. Thank you. So, and I have sent a few people away for that reason, actually that lent that leads us on to a question. So you may recall, we have a segment on the show called Be my guest. Most of the time people do record questions.
Kartika Alexandra 1:00:26
Amazing.
Martin O'Toole 1:00:27
We've got one for you.
Kartika Alexandra 1:00:28
Amazing.
Duane Forrest 1:00:28
[SONG] Be my guest. Let's talk my friend. Let's talk my friend.
Martin O'Toole 1:00:41
Thank you, Dwayne.
Kate (Be My Guest audience question) 1:00:44
Hi, Kartika. This is Kate calling in from Boston, Massachusetts. I'm so excited that you're back for a second episode because I absolutely loved your first one. To the point where I started looking up psychotherapist in my area to make an appointment. I was wondering if you had any recommendations for someone who is interested in psychotherapy as far as what to look for in a psychotherapist when they're weighing out options, and what to expect for your first session, as well as how to mentally prepare for your first session. Thanks so much.
Martin O'Toole 1:01:17
Wow, thanks, Kate.
Kartika Alexandra 1:01:19
Yeah, thank you. Now, psychotherapy or hypnotherapy, or both?
Martin O'Toole 1:01:24
I think she, I think she means probably both. But I think I think probably leaning towards hypnotherapy because she would have heard us specifically discussing the nuances between
Kartika Alexandra 1:01:34
Yeah, and also I did mention the type of hypnotherapy I do involve psychotherapy. So that can get confusing, but I'll speak to answer, actually, both, one of the first things you want to do is the person you're going to meet and work with, to do this inner work, you really want to be able to connect with them. Forget credentials, and I'm saying that's important to make sure you have the foundation to start with. But if you go with only the one who has the most credentials, and all of this, you will miss the person who's going to be able to unlock you in a way that you we really heal in relation. And a lot of the studies even show that if you do EMDR or CBT, or these kinds of, you know, very commonly and successful and effective techniques, they all have the same success rate, it's the therapist is the therapist usage and how they use these techniques that was going to be what was going to be the magic like element. So it's not so much the technique or the modality, it's the therapist. So find the one that you feel alright, this person's got me one of the first things I will, I will personally look for and always suggest for my clients to look for someone who they feel they can be contained by. If this person, if you're talking about some kind of pain you went through, and they're flinching and crying, and they're not able to contain this, they're getting dysregulated, I would walk out. And I say this flat, because you don't have a lot of time, maybe you don't have a lot of money, don't waste your energy there, this person can contain the process that you're going to need to go through and still be present, not dissociated and detached. So there's a fine line of being too emotional and too cold, right there, still staying in the human contact, you know that and that space, that will be what heals us the most. This is why many people in Bali, the healers, you know, they don't have formal education, but they do phenomenal work, because of their capacity to be present in that moment of releasing. It's not the same as hypnotherapy and psychotherapy. We all have different processes, but the therapist matters the most, how do you feel with them? I would say definitely start not. credentials do matter, but not to the point that they should be the make no, make it sorry, win or lose kind of decision making the feeling? How do they relate to the story? Or how do they respond to the stories that you're sharing the topic, it can help definitely to find someone who's an expert or professional in the topic you want to address. For example, if someone was coming from eating disorders, versus a phobia of a frog, we're looking at totally different, you know, elements here, and processes. So it can help to have that. But still, even if you wanted to address frog phobia eating disorders, the therapist matters there, and references like, what's the word of mouth going around about this person? That will be really key really important more than anything more than advertising... Anything.
Martin O'Toole 1:04:28
So how would you advise someone who wasn't sure what they needed? That is to say, Do I need a Hypnotherapist? Do I need a psychotherapist? Do I need a counsellor? Because it's or do I need a coach? It's quite a turgid,
Kartika Alexandra 1:04:46
Generally coaches and not counsellors per se counts Okay, not all but coaches and counsellors will look to the future they don't look in the past. So psychotherapy, some clinical psychologist and these things in hypnosis therapy, look at the past. So you have to see where you want to go. And I want to build a future and have the conscious tools go there. You need a coach or counsellor, these kinds of things to support you. When it's time to go into the past. That's where these other ones come in. And even in hypnotherapy, we have hypnotherapy that is focused on the future. So good programming, good positive suggestions for like financial abundance, health, all these things. That's a type of is called Clinical hypnosis, you know about an hour long, versus regression or the kind of work I do, going into the past to find out what's you know, happened there to release it so we can be more present. Now. Even within there, there's nuance, I mean, things we have to look at. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:41
And for the listeners who haven't listened to the first episode that Kartika did with us, which was episode five, that was very much discussing hypnotherapy and my experience of hypnotherapy with you. And that was that was all about regression, wasn't it? Yeah. Not to repeat the episode. But I originally went to Kartika to believing I was fully healed. Everything's fine. I've done ayahuasca and some yoga, everything's good. And I wanted to access a memory for a book I was writing. And Wales has trousers, we opened a can of worms in a good way. Because then you well, we put the worms back in as well, didn't we? So that was very much regression. So that's probably the point of difference. So So I suppose the other the response to k is, what do you feel that you are you tell me? I'm not sure. But what do you feel that you need to address?
Kartika Alexandra 1:06:41
With, okay, I'm going to speak only for my type of hypnotherapy. Really, don't bother coming to see us unless you have an actual problem, if you're looking to just explore. And so some people come and say, I want to do a past life regression. That's great if you want to find out what you were in your past life, but what is it going to do for you? Is it going to enhance your life right now? Because that's, I mean, if you want to spend the time and the money, fine to explore who you are, but what would I give you? And I say this because people will do that, in a sense of desire to understand who they are. But also if it's driven by ego, you're just going to continue to maybe even recreate a scene that may not have happened because your ego wants to have a story or something to hold on to. So I'm all about this and I don't do past lives, unless there's a reason we have to go to that past life or find out what happened here. This use an issue, open that up. This is an opportune time in hypnosis to do this kind of work. Find out what's the issue and then so that we need a problem. If they go I want to try it. Nope, sorry, don't open anything, just leave it as it is. We don't have to do any digging. They just leave it as it is until something comes up and that something should be some element problem issue that you find you cannot resolve with just conscious willpower or knowledge. So you know, you should stop eating chocolate because you're diabetic, but you cannot help it. You cannot you know that your husband or your wife is not cheating on you. But you feel incredible jealous every time they leave. But you know, they're not cheating on you. This is the kind of time when Hey, time to go to the subconscious unconscious. So if conscious knowledge and conscious willpower is not helping you hear subconscious and conscious time, that's when it's good to see hypnotherapist otherwise, you know or in the way I do it. Now if you want clinical hypnosis to get good programmes in absolutely plenty online, you can find download them, listen to those audios, you're highly suggestible in hypnosis, and that puts in the good programming that you may not have received from parents, friends, business advisors, whatever about abundance and health. That's great. But for this kind of work, don't touch it until you have to deal with it.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:46
That's good advice.
Julia Malcolmson 1:08:47
Yeah very.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:48
And I suppose that plays back to the list of reasons why relationships break down, doesn't it? You will be aware that these problems are happening, won't you?
Kartika Alexandra 1:09:00
Hopefully, hopefully.
Martin O'Toole 1:09:02
Yeah. Well, some somebody in that partnership, hopefully would be aware, I guess, it's whether or not you've got a healthy enough relationship to for one of those people to say, you know, what, this is happening a lot. So is it me is it you is it is, you know, perhaps there's a conversation to be had there. But I suppose my, what I'll throw into that is what I realised was the that for a long time, I was blaming everyone else for all of these things, these relationship problems, it was never my fault. And when I finally realised, as I sort of, you know, observed the battlefield and saw and saw the trail of destruction around me and metaphorically speaking over years, there was only one conclusion I could come to and that was, oh, I'm the common denominator here. But But I certainly don't suggest that you leave it as long as I did. If you can have And just to try and help people cut corners because I spent far too much of my life not accepting responsibility for my actions. And I suspect had I realised at some point sooner than I could have caused a lot of people, including myself some heartache, so,
Kartika Alexandra 1:10:16
But could you have actually realised it any sooner?
Martin O'Toole 1:10:19
No, probably not.
Kartika Alexandra 1:10:20
I mean, even if everyone had told you wouldn't hear it, right?
Martin O'Toole 1:10:24
Nobody—some people. Plenty of people did tell me and I, they couldn't tell me at the same time. I didn't want to listen. And it's, that's their lies. The the the paradox, right? On the one hand, you know, Oh, please, I want I want you to tell me if I'm doing this wrong. Okay. I just did. No, I don't want you to tell me.
Kartika Alexandra 1:10:45
Yeah, I don't like what you're telling me.
Julia Malcolmson 1:10:47
I can't hear it.
Kartika Alexandra 1:10:48
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:49
Lalalalala! Got my headphones on listening to the How to Die Happy podcast can't hear you.
Kartika Alexandra 1:10:54
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:54
Everything happens at the right time. And when you're ready to deal with it doesn't it can't be any sooner. That's true. But then at the same time, what are your collective feelings? And about what we're doing here? You know, like, trying to try to plant seeds, you know, is that not offering the opportunity to shave a few corners?
Kartika Alexandra 1:11:15
Yeah, of course. So this is the same thing with any I mean, anyone actually, you you say something, it just could be the seed planted. And then, of course, it can grow. If we nourish that seed over and over and over and over, even if we're irritating and annoying, but it gets there. I agree with you. But the real moment of change in one's life. That really is a specific time. Usually it's I am so tired of this. Now. I'm tired of the story I'm doing. That's really only when it will change. Or I mentioned this in the first podcast, or there's a massive change in our life, like a death or loss, or something that will forcefully rip open everything that will create like COVID will do that, for example. But it's usually going to come from our inner sense of I am so tired now. This is too much, or my external will need that. That's a great point. And so I suppose that's when the seeds are useful. Oh, I remember that. Oh, I remember that.
Martin O'Toole 1:12:11
Yeah. And another thing. Yeah. Well, I know, I think you make a great point. Because of course, for me was when my mum died. That was, that was what tore it open for me. And I suppose if people can have that awareness, at least, I think what you said about being absolutely tired of it. That was something I can resonate with. I was exhausting myself. Yeah. With my own behaviour. Yes. And so I suppose again, there is there is that that aspect of awareness, even if it's after a long, long road of self harm, emotionally speaking? Wow, I could talk about this for 10 hours, that we really could I could deliver some vegan pizza.
Kartika Alexandra 1:12:55
I can do it.
Martin O'Toole 1:12:56
Well, that's why I'm hoping you're gonna come back again!
Kartika Alexandra 1:12:59
I'd be so happy to.
Martin O'Toole 1:13:01
Do we have anything that we want to talk to the caretaker about before we say, "byesy-bye"?
Julia Malcolmson 1:13:07
I mean, I think the only other thing we wanted to point out was, you know, none of us are taught how to do relationships, you know, we, we only have whoever all carers are our role models as children. That's where we learn. Yeah, so if that's the relationship we don't want, we don't have we haven't been taught the skill sets to choose and change that relationship and create a relationship that we want. And just in general, there's no relationship training. And I fundamentally believe that a relationship is a skill set. And we have to work at them. And, you know, we need knowledge and we need help, and advice and input. We can't, I don't think it's necessarily something we're supposed to do alone, and
Kartika Alexandra 1:13:48
I know it doesn't sound so fun, because we know we have these maybe imprints to the, you know, the, like the princess in the charming mask, gonna say in front, of course, white knight on his white horse and the whole thing. But it's just like a business is just like learning something at school, we actually have to learn, we have to sit down and read those books or knowledge and have the teachers to go through that because we would do that for a vacation. You know, we go on a vacation, you look at the hotels, you get reviews, you know, you find out which areas? I mean, why would we not do that when we're going to construct like an experience of our life with our intimate partner, you know, and to not have that. And the frustration that people feel thinking is some but it's actually not we don't have the tools we don't get taught this. And nevermind, societal standards, you know, like some of the older ways that work now don't work, are still being taught. So we really have to do that all ourselves every time.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:49
Do you think... Do you think it's getting better? Do you think that actually, the education is improving for people in mental health or Do you think it's actually we're moving away from that further away from that with more digital distractions? And, you know, this sort of hacking the idea of life hacking?
Kartika Alexandra 1:15:12
Yeah. Is it okay? If I say both?
Martin O'Toole 1:15:15
Yeah.
Kartika Alexandra 1:15:15
Because the amazing thing about the internet, you can get everything. You know, I mean, YouTube, and mental health and all of this. It's all accessible. It's amazing, you know, people, some of my clients found another teacher of mine. And it changed their life, because now they understand trauma, healing, and all that stuff. Because of one YouTube video. Yeah. And help them understand that. And then of course, with everything, just like food, just like, again, it's not comparable in terms of, but with guns and money. Knowledge is the same, right? It can go both ways. Yeah. used and abused. Or you can use it for the good reasons.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:51
True. Or I suppose misused in as much as we might, because we have this this new generation who's interested in life hacking? Yeah, I've worked that out. I've watched a 45 minute YouTube video, and I'm healed. I understand. I understand that trade now is fine. On to the next one. But I suppose yeah, I completely agree. I, we are incredibly What a fascinating, an amazing time for us to be alive is interesting to witness this huge ocean, endless ocean of content that offers all of these healing opportunities to people. And this information is phenomenal, isn't it? I mean, I didn't have it in the—s—in the 80s.
Kartika Alexandra 1:16:32
Right.
Martin O'Toole 1:16:33
I nearly said, 60s. [LAUGHS]
Kartika Alexandra 1:16:37
It's amazing. Yeah, the hacking part is quite interesting. You know, the Oregon Ring? People have these rings, they you know, the
Martin O'Toole 1:16:44
I've heard that.
Kartika Alexandra 1:16:45
Yeah, they measures everything. You biometrics and everything, all that stuff. And so they'll come in, these are the types of clients who are in their 20s, early 20s to 28. They love this stuff. They love it. They love to make sure it's working the stats and everything, which is great. But they're also the ones who were like, I want this done now. Yes. Right. So one of my teachers calls it the microwave generation, you have to boil hot water back into Dania to be patient, you learn that now it's push a button, three seconds done, you know? So they come in, and they're like, Yeah, I want this done. Now, I'm like, no, no, no, no, that's not how healing works. As much as you love all of this stuff. Still, you're still a human with a mind and the process that has to be engaged in so as much as you want to do this. No. Yeah. And of course, I still like to say, you know, we like to speed it up. But three hours, we can do it in No, no. The mind works in a certain way in this we haven't hacked fully yet. This is there's still a process by yesterday where these rings and they, they observe it after the session, I actually love it. It's really quite fun. They see the changes from the hypnotherapy or the stuff that they do here. And it's super fun. It's only these guys, I actually thought about I mean, these guys are the ones who want to know that this is helping. It's not results. Yeah. So they can see their heart rate the baseline go down. Yeah, this is fascinating. Never in the older generation, would this ever happen? Like, I'm going to test if this actually works, I can invest and hack into another system to help my healing, you know,
Martin O'Toole 1:18:15
Yeah. That's what I actually I love about the concept of biohacking and because there's a huge evolutions occurring in biohacking and that the Istana, which is a would you call it a retreat and Spa in lieu are two near where we live? They they have a lot of biohacking opportunities.
Kartika Alexandra 1:18:33
Totally.
Martin O'Toole 1:18:34
So
Julia Malcolmson 1:18:35
Because people want to hear, don't they? And that's really great to see. Very positive.
Kartika Alexandra 1:18:40
Yeah, it is. I hope we just do it properly in a deeply deeper way, as opposed to for the goal. Because this again, we have a goal, but the process is so important to heal the actual process to get to that goal. You know,
Martin O'Toole 1:18:53
Like everything in life. It's the it's not just about the destination. It's the journey, isn't it?
Kartika Alexandra 1:18:58
Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:18:59
It's about being present. As you said, yeah. Anyway, I sparked another conversation! I'm so sorry that we talk on this podcast
Kartika Alexandra 1:19:08
Gosh!
Julia Malcolmson 1:19:09
Who would have thought it?!
Martin O'Toole 1:19:10
Just for—for the record listeners, by the way, if you have managed to stay with us for a little over an hour. The reason why I'm so conscious of our time these days is because because we were being encouraged statistically to try and keep our podcast a little bit shorter. But you know what, send us a message. If you think that's nonsense. If you would rather hear us talking for an hour, 45 minutes, let us know because if you don't communicate, and we will have to assume and
Kartika Alexandra 1:19:39
Read your body language
Martin O'Toole 1:19:40
Yeah. Now we have video you can read my body language. So I suppose there is that but
Julia Malcolmson 1:19:46
and then the expectations won't be met.
Kartika Alexandra 1:19:48
We won't be on the same page.
Martin O'Toole 1:19:50
Or we won't have the same goals, will we?! Amazing. Thanks, Kartika. Lovely to speak to you again.
Kartika Alexandra 1:19:57
Thank you, Martin. Thank you so much for having me back.
Julia Malcolmson 1:20:00
Thank you so much Kartika.
Martin O'Toole 1:20:01
We'll see you soon.
