Episode 22 Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, world, life, realise, meditation, question, happiness, john, happy, silence, clouds, home, god, present, meditate, serving, death, sky, natural, podcast, thought.
SPEAKERS
Faith McAllister (caller), Martin O'Toole, Tom Pardhy (caller), John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment), Duane Forrest
Martin O'Toole 00:29
Hello, John, how are you?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 00:33
Waiting for what's ahead.
Martin O'Toole 00:34
Always or just in this particular conversation?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 00:39
In particular, this particular moment.
Martin O'Toole 00:44
Well, I appreciate you being prepared. And I also appreciate you taking the time to have a chat on the how to die happy podcast we are honoured to have you on as a guest. So thank you so much. So I thought I might dive straight in with quite a quite a profound question I imagine and I would love to know your perspective on how to die happy
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 01:15
well the first thing Martin especially after a long life is that it's not a matter of me dying but rather the world dying out to me which you can't to elaborate so well. Back Your childhood. What happened to what's happened to it? You grew up, didn't you? You grew up became a school boy. What happened to that? Grew up, you graduated behind activities through all the stages of life. And finally, you grew up with this world.
Martin O'Toole 02:29
That's a wonderful perspective. And so that's a version of death. But what about the happiness aspect of it?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 02:40
Well dear, you've chosen really the wrong man to talk about happiness. I've never considered myself a happy back. for much of my life. I consider myself one of the most unhappy men in the world. It's not really a word in my vocabulary, happiness. Rather sort of that I like doing. I was going to be on this podcast, a really scratched my head last few days. Trying to think of what I have been happy. The things that make me so I've done a bit of homework for you.
Martin O'Toole 03:27
Thank you
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 03:34
just repeat your question again. Just keep on the right track.
Martin O'Toole 03:39
How can we die happy?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 03:42
How can you die happy? Well, I repeat what I said before the fact is, you don't die when you die if you think you're going to die that have gotten us to the point. It what it depends on what you've been doing with your life and, and how you've lived your life, whether you prepared or not. You know, when I was a little boy, my granddad used to say to me, live as if, though. Work as if you'll live forever live as if you're going to die tomorrow. So I'm not sure that that sank in when I was a little boy. But But I certainly have lived with death throughout my life, particularly as a farmer when I was constantly confronted by death, and then thought very much about it. And how, how can how can we prepare for death? How could I prepare my animals for death? The death of the plants and vegetables as I drew it when they were harvested. What's it all about? Anyway, so it's been very much the forefront of my mind. Death. To die happy era, the question isn't really big enough, I think that's really why I'm not too keen on the word happiness because it's not big enough there's more to life and happiness seems too small and superficially, that's a really, when people talk of happiness, it doesn't really make much impact on me because it usually consists of, of things for me really don't add up too much and, and are not particularly what I want. I suppose I haven't shown the happiness because I've always sought for the depth of greater depth and repair, just happy to talk the love and freedom rather than happiness.
Martin O'Toole 05:54
Well, you make a very interesting point there, I suppose, the word happy can be misconstrued by many. And it is very much down to perspective. I know I don't know if you know, you remember Alan Watts, the philosopher and he wrote a book called The meaning of happiness. And actually, the original title for that book, which the publisher has changed was the anatomy of acceptance.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 06:22
Well,
Martin O'Toole 06:23
when I think of happiness sorry, go
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 06:27
No go on, go on, go on, go on.
Martin O'Toole 06:30
Well, I was just gonna say when I think of happiness, I don't think of the superficial of stuff you know, the things I own or or the probably what many other people do consider to be happy? I did once I did you, I was in business and I, I thought that happiness was to own nice cars and to have nice houses and to have nice things and, and all of that sort of stuff. But But actually, I'm very much more aligned now with where Alan Watts was leading when he talks about the anatomy of acceptance. So I suppose if we didn't talk about happiness, perhaps we should talk about acceptance. Perhaps that's a little more interesting place to start.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 07:18
All right. Perhaps I would go would counter that and perhaps look to how we could overcome unhappiness or acceptance six of one half a dozen of the other what's the same thing? How do we come to terms with life how is it that the end of life apparently not the end of life at all I'm really I'm really Growing out of kindergarten as it were. 80 odd years schooling in what life is not in mortality in this in the life that comes to pass the life that doesn't keep its promises. The life is life that's happy one day and sad the next door ups and downs, isn't it? And then you're totally lucky if you get through to old age without quite a number of things wrong with you. In all sorts of levels, mental emotional and social bubble physical decay of the you know, there's no saying old age isn't happiness Starus Neoradus in Russian. Anyway. So how do we come to terms with come to terms with death? Well, well, well. I'm countrymen. I've always lived in the country. I was born in the country, I've been a follower. Most of my active years. I'm used to the open field. I'm used to being surrounded by space, space in silence. It's my natural home. Where I've observed the seasons, the things that come to pass, rise and fall their life come to dies out is just natural cycles. Then through acceptance, you come to see life and death is just a normal opposite of life. And yet, there's more to it. Because the context in which this play takes place is unchanging isn't the space the size of the field? The same, like golf now is no land, it's the same as it was when I was a child basis, the same, the sky is the same. At night, the stars are the same, have changed at all ethnic. And all this drama, performance of what we call life comes and goes, comes to I think from quite an early age, I began to get that perspective. But of course, you know, I got involved I fell in love many times, and these things get you very much engrossed In the transitory world, you forget that it's transitory, you think it's going to go on forever. And so when things break down, or work out as planned, you get upset and disappointed and unhappy. And I've certainly had my share of deeper happiness, mostly concerned with love, as it is for many people. How on earth can you sort of navigate this, this business of love? Without getting into trouble, discipline, because it usually starts the honeymoon period. It doesn't go on forever. A few people are lucky. A lot—awful lot. These sort of things go wrong. How do we deal with that? Well, of course, this if you if you learn to meditate when I was when I was 26, be meditating regularly for nearly 60 years, twice a day. And the great thing about meditation is that the space, this space of the open fields of space of the stars and the sky, which I loved as a young man, and discover within yourself, that same spacious the infinite space in which you can, which I now confidently say, space, stillness, presence. That is what in God's will begin in the other end. That what he got anyway? Because if anybody knew it was, it's a natural sequence, isn't it, the eternal unchanging. And as we become better acquainted with this, it gives us an inner stability, which enables us to, to take, not necessarily to life, but to take the ups and downs of life in our stride. They taught me happiness, but it's, you become content, it's, and the other thing is that you come to see the law of fullness of it all. And that our unhappiness is really because we, we lose our connection with the eternal unchanging and we get caught up in the transitory world of good and bad, like I'm here today and gone tomorrow. So we'll build this way and at the mercy of circumstances, which is not consistent happening. So as I've grown into the eternal unchanging I will show that God largely grown out of the world comes to pass And in that there is there is Completion, Completion
Martin O'Toole 14:13
that's quite beautiful. Do you do you think that that and I'm going to say acceptance for the, for the sake of trying to sum up all that's everything you just said then do you think that acceptance of your place in the world of in a realm of duality has developed over you over the all of your lifetime? Or were you lucky to have this perspective? Because you started meditating in your 20s you say,
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 14:47
I've never been one to look for. The things I never read very much either to keen on, on books or human teachers. I just, for me, it's been more a matter of what I love. And I love the fields. And I've loved. And I've been lucky, I've travelled a lot. I've been in that much time in the deserts and great open spaces of this world, that God before tourism took off like it has now and I was on my own. And, and again, I'm wondering, wondering off of what you asked me.
Martin O'Toole 15:29
No, don't worry. Well, I suppose
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 15:31
Will you just pull me back to what you said?
Martin O'Toole 15:34
Yes, I was, I was wondering, when you came to this realisation, if you could pinpoint a time
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 15:40
Well, I haven't good, I'm still you don't, in this life is you This is one of the deceptions of life that we reach anything or we become something or you become wise or happy or something, because you don't, it's a long, long, long transition, if you get a better name for it, then, you know, something is right, you can never trust what we call knowledge because you know, something today, and next week, you find something else to see, and you realise you were just before before, and you don't move, move up the ladder of foolishness of not knowing basically, and whatever you think you will achieve, you'll be knocked off your perch tomorrow. So you stop being fooled by that sort of thing. But But what you also see, you see this huge comfort in realising the lawfulness of everything. You've only just got to consider the grass, and the very dust beneath your feet, to see how every grain of dust is perfect in its place, the order that every leaf and stick on the ground is perfectly ordain. There's nothing in this life that isn't according to perfect. And you see, where we start getting it wrong is because we, we abandon our original home, which is this one, that's the spiritual one. And we fall into separation, we fall into what's called the ego, which is I, me lie. You see from the very, you've only got to observe a little child and spread, reaching out and say, I want that non stop. When the parent says, Oh, this is yes or no. And the whole is world of confusion and conflict is really multiplication of this primal separation from show. And that and that, and everything, all the unpleasantness the walls, the difficulties in this work, basically, that they all start off from the me, bawling me, thinking I know better, very often. It's like the story of Adam, in Genesis in the Garden of Eden, who separate leaves the presence of God, and so leaves in absence from paradise. And say, you're searching for little bits of paradise here, there and everywhere, and they were lovely for a while, and then suddenly happened. You're off in the dark again. The only true answer for man is to come back to Paradise, which is not about this world, because Jesus says the kingdom of God is not of this world, this world comes to pass that is its nature as any, if today and gone tomorrow, Paradise, this is this is, this is not an output and physical thing. It is a spiritual with when you come into spirit. With when you got these eyes of flesh, you see see flesh, they see mortality, we got to learn to work with your, with your inward part, the half was called, we may begin to discover the higher the higher reality. We live in a low state of consciousness, you see this higher, higher levels of consciousness. And he says we discover higher levels of consciousness that we discover home where we really belong. So we're all really yearning for the infinite love that never says no, you see the freedom and we're all walking one another home and we were all groping in our own ways towards you see, we what we we pick up a little bit should listen that along the way, little bits of home little bits of love and all these bits and then jolly good for a while and may point us in the right direction. But that just like you see we talk about death. We want to say how to die happy will the altar if you don't die, but this has to be realised the question login question just melts away in oneness, the oneness. Pure being there is no question. Questions belong to this world and duality.
Martin O'Toole 20:38
So why do you think we are here, John? Not on this in this conversation? Why do you think we're here on earth? At this time?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 20:48
Maybe a little boy, I stretched out my hand and said, I want to hear maybe, maybe we're here for a lesson. Why did little children get sent to school? Because their parents it could be good for them. Maybe that's why we're here. We just did in school.
Martin O'Toole 21:14
That's exactly what I call I call life Earth school. That's my that's my nickname for it.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 21:21
Well, I think it's a good description. In the Bible, there's the story of the of the prodigal son in the bible you wanted to go his own away didn't he. for those that don't know the story is told by Jesus on his great parable to some rich man that had two sons and one of them the younger said give me my inheritance. Now I want to go off and see the world so the father did that. Off he went to to indulge in happiness. Try the wine with him and spend all this money ended up in feeding the feeding the pigs and starving each time I went—he came to his senses the interesting phrase came to his senses. I better go home and apologise. not bother to take me back. Which he did. That's the story it applies to all of us, doesn't it?
Martin O'Toole 22:33
It's a wonderful story of forgiveness.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 22:37
Uh, well forgiveness is certainly a fact because because the sky you look at the sky and no matter how many nasty things you've thought or said the sky doesn't punishment. The infinite silence never criticises us doesn't. The real things of life, or the big things or the or the bigger it gets, and of course, ultimately to what we call God. There's no judgement in that it's the judgement is the is the functioning of the law down at this level here. Just like the way the winds blowing determines where the leaf will fall. This is and you see every bad thought of every every thing we do transgressive the basic law of oneness has a result ripples out and has an effect. So the world goes from bad to worse. So our fault anyone to blame is mean really So the worst thing you could do is blame anybody else it's always me start to hear that when you get your own perspective right to see when you're looking from a higher level of consciousness you simply do not see dark doesn't exist like bad dreams particularly like when the sun rises what happens to the dark says you rise in consciousness you don't see any bad it's some potential fixes the answer to the to the world's problems is to work on yourself by fine I love the saying "to make whole, be whole" when you look out on the world with components that's what you see. You don't see division you see for one that's how to help the world my dear.
Martin O'Toole 24:42
There's another version of that which is "Be the change you want to see in the world."
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 24:50
You got to grow into it. You Will you will you pick up the sort of phrases when we're young. Bingo. I know what to do that Hahahahaha
Martin O'Toole 25:00
yeah, yeah, but what does that mean?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 25:02
Pride cometh before a fall!
Martin O'Toole 25:07
I love what you said earlier on about knowledge about learning, being as impermanent as everything else because of course, change impermanence is the one universal constant, isn't it? And it's a, it's a wonderful reminder, that while we may learn and and feel as though we truly know something, now, that may well change. You mentioned silence earlier on and I, I wondered, What does silence give to you?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 25:41
[Laughs] What does silence give to me? There are two worlds really. The world is what you call the world of unity, and the world we shall use the word duality. Now all descriptions belong to the world. When you describe something, you put it in the box, words, meanings, which is different, which is how we live in this life. But distinguishing one thing from another. When you take something like silence, which is eternity, try to describe it it's no longer silence is it? you bring it down to a lower level of existence, you bring it down to duality. This is why you can't ascribe any of the real things in life. You can't describe silence or space or presence or love or freedom or peaceor spirit but least of all, God. Me to try to describe your diminishing was silence isn't it is this is a non contentious, very simple first step in progress towards the infinite. If people if you start talking about God, people, don't people have their own concepts of different cultures acceptable or not acceptable if they decide simple, acceptable, I love silence Yes I do love silence, like talking really noise I suppose because the fields of silence and nature silent and those distant like not because they're sound from nature, of course all the time. But she but it's sort of held in the greater silence. Silence is a safeguard against foolishness. Once we open our mouths, we tend to start speaking silly. I don't really trust the tongue.
Martin O'Toole 28:31
That's very wise.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 28:33
Yes, I'm safe with silence.
Martin O'Toole 28:36
But when you meditate, and you, you immerse yourself in the silence. Do you see do you see silence there for as the unified field or an example of source of spirit? In that pause, is it is it is it that obvious that actually any moment we are silent, and we just consciously breathe, that we are actually in the presence of divinity?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 29:06
It's only really, really in the last few years, when I find myself on a public platform like this. I get asked these sorts of questions and I don't really know how to reply because I think for most of my life, I haven't even thought this way. I suppose I do just find it's natural to me. So I find it more natural to be silent than talking really and we're trying to figure out silence is I suppose. Yes, I think silence is natural, really. And, and when I was young, you know they were it was a time when all sorts of things were things like people Get them. Things like machinery, and chemicals and photography and economics and all these things. They were also the new fangled ideas that have come in in my life. You know, when I was a little boy, they didn't exist these things. Photography was very much. People regarded it with some suspicion that sort of bastard art. the stealing stealing reality. People didn't lie a lot of people did. No, I never did. I've never had a camera in my life. Like it's machinery... As a farmer, everything was work done by hand of all horses and tractors on the farm. Now people can't imagine farming without machinery. Chemical age, didn't exist when I was young. And I'm wondering, what was your question there? Can you remember?
Martin O'Toole 31:06
Well, no, I don't think you were wandering off. Actually, I think you were you were providing a wonderful example of what I was trying to get to. And, and I'll just come back for a second and unpack it. The reason why I suspect you constantly asked these kinds of questions on these kinds of platforms now, I think is probably because the everyday people in society now are surrounded by technology and distraction and noise. And actually, a lot of people are very uncomfortable with silence, and certainly uncomfortable in themselves.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 31:46
Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I'm back on track now. Yes. So it was very common expression to sort of, say, natural and what was called artificial or natural and unnatural because man's whole problem particularly like it too, so the ever increasing degree, which simply become natural. This is what we're basically not happy, because we're not being natural. And people make desperately hard attempts to be that robot using natural food, you know, tried to be natural. Natural, natural, but, but it certainly it was certainly sort of reaching out in the right direction instinctively, we're yearning to get back to nature. And the only good thing too and we'll find discovered that silence becomes more natural as we gradually become more natural. You only got to look at the sea and look at the trees that you're comfortable with. The tree speaks and indeed they do but but but not in this clumsy verbal way. There are many levels of communication in fact I'm sure many of you know that in real meetings with real people very often the best communication is silence you to speak look in their eyes I had a lovely conversation with someone with two or three days ago after we said hello About ten minutes later... Bye-bye. It was absolutely beautiful couldn't have expressed more word seemed sort of almost from another world world of clumsiness and misunderstanding I have a Zoom meditation thing and a couple of dozen or so of us sit in total silence. The beautiful one of the best things I do I think. you couldn't be closer. You just got closer. Love cannot be purer than in silence. How does God love us? In silence. You see, you can feel it now, can't you.
Martin O'Toole 34:32
I can very much so. And silence is something that I didn't have. For a long time in my life. I was a very busy person in busyness. And as I was telling you before we began the interview, I was drinking a lot and using drugs—a very unhealthy lifestyle. And actually now, where I'm at in my life and where I live. I live in on the island of Bali. As you know, I often just sit in, and enjoy. As you say, it's not silent. Because there are probably seven or eight different species of birds, and a monkey or two, my two dogs you can hear in the background. cockerels, the wind through the trees. But it's silence and it's beautiful.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 35:22
It is beautiful. In fact, when I was thinking back. Before we started here, trying to think of times where I've been happy. I can't really remember any particular times when I've been in, in company with people really, that I've been particularly happy for anti people, but I'm not very pro people either. I think would I be at sea? I look back on my time in the desert says, the highlights of my life really
Martin O'Toole 36:07
solitary?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 36:08
I think I've been happier than Well, the point is that when you're not sure a tree, this is the whole point. You see, I've always been much more lonely in the company of people than alone. Because when you're really alone, you cannot be lonely because you're, you're connected with a deeper reality, which is the very opposite of loneliness. It's oneness. Yes that's what happens. is this in this world, you will be talking to people, you're separate. I'm talking to you. Or I love you that separation isn't the relation trying to find ways of getting closer or getting further apart if you don't like them, you know, arguing. But then you come into real silence, which is undivided, That's right, it's undivided isn't it. As all these real things are silent stillness, space. They're undivided. Then, even if you're sort of not really philosophical, sorry, if you're not really prepared, instinctively. You're comfortable. There's no contention there. You're at one you're at rest At least if I look back on my desert experiences of times of supreme completeness, maybe. Wholeness, yes. And then meditation of course has developed, over 60 years or so. I've gone through many, many stages of meditation. But basically, it's all in that direction, which is even less of me, the more of God which is Completion.
Martin O'Toole 38:18
When I asked you the question, a while back asked you, What does silence give to you? And actually, by the sounds of it, the answer is everything.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 38:30
Ultimately, ultimately, but you see, we need to learn how to become acquainted with it to begin with. Many people are frightened. They can't, they can't switch off the phones are can't stop talking when people it's a disease, really, this compulsive noise that people live and they've got to be listening to music or something all the time. And it takes many, many years to decondition. That what I found meditation does in the gentlest possible way it doesn't. It's not a matter of turning off or stopping anything. It's a matter of introducing, introducing something just to begin with a little little taste of something preferable. That in contrast, is attractive and nice. And that's what people make people go there. I don't believe in trying to compel anything or direct anything much better just simply find something better, then instinctively will go in that direction. Like a trail of sugar.
Martin O'Toole 39:43
John, we have a segment on the how to die happy podcast, which is called Be my guest. And we invite the listeners of the show to send in questions for forthcoming guests. And we have two questions from Our audience for you today. And I wondered if I may be so bold as to as to play them and see what you have to say to these people.
Duane Forrest 40:07
[SONG] Be my guest Let's talk my friend. Let's talk my friend. This is not the end.
Martin O'Toole 40:28
now we do we have two questions, John, today from faith, and from Tom. So I'd like to thank them both in advance for the questions. But before I ask the questions, before I play the questions, it happens that they're both questions about meditation. And I hope you'll forgive me, but I would like to share your poem clouds with our audience, because I think it's quite relevant. And then perhaps we can play the question. So now, please, excuse me, I'm going to read your poem and hopefully I won't. dent it as, as as I share it with the audience. So this is clouds, a poem by John Butler. "Unmistakeably, up in the sky, the sun is obscured when clouds pass by. With this natural fact, I'll endeavour to show how problems of life can diminish and go." "For problems arise when we take by mistake, changing scenes for our permanent state." "Within each of us shines a similar sun, dependent on nothing, beholden to none." "In all things sufficient with freedom and bliss. It's there from our birth. And it's what a man is." "Now that you may query, but look, and you'll find how your sun gets hidden by clouds of the mind." What a beautiful poem, John, I must say, Now, I'm going to, I'm going to just play the first question for you.
Faith McAllister (caller) 42:04
Hi, Martin, and Jules and John. My question for you, John, is that I, well, I struggled to create a habit to meditate. I love meditating when I actually do it. And I do get a lot out of it. But I can't seem to kind of remember to do it. And I wondered if you had any tips for creating a bit of a ritual around it? I guess, especially when travelling because I'm travelling at the moment. And yeah, moving from place to place I find it hard to remember. So any tips would be great. Thanks.
Martin O'Toole 42:40
Thank you, Faith. What a wonderful question. How can we remember to meditate, John?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 42:46
Well, Faith when I was a young man, when I went to asked if I would teach me to meditate? I was asked the question, what do you really, really want in life? What is your heart's desire? Now faith that you asked yourself that question. You don't have to tell me what the answer is, you know, in your own heart may take you a little while to To realise what it is. If you bear that in mind that may help because most of the things that get in the way and prevent you meditating are not really what you most want to keep your priorities in place. And the second thing is is really important to begin with, to establish a habit just like you clean your teeth every morning. Go to the toilet have your first drink of the day or breakfast or something you do good habit and you do it whether you want to do it or not. Sure you often you don't want to clean your teeth but you do it automatically isn't it. Like going to the toilet. That's the way to establish meditation. And regular regular practice is much more important than sort of Long intermittent session because you see is the regularity the water on the stove, that drip drip drip that does the work of the new world often you don't want to do it. I don't sometimes i Oh god, I try to meditate again. I'm tired or my legs hurt or something that we won't be doing. With him. Not being good. I do make myself sit down even though I spent no time thinking or fall asleep. I do and just soldier on again. And occasionally you from time to time it'll open up and you'll realise what it's all about. You'll feel the way to what I really want. Which doesn't happen. It worked out hard work, lifetime work. I'd be doing it 60 odd years now. since I sat down to meditate as a young man, being one of the cornerstones of my life, one of the best things I ever did. Keep going for a goal. You know, there's one thing that distinguishes a wise man from full determination, dear. Keep going. Keep plodding along the stony road. That's the way good luck to you. God bless you.
Martin O'Toole 46:00
That's wonderful advice. Thank you, John. Okay, we've have a second question for you, which is also about meditation.
Tom Pardhy (caller) 46:09
Hey, Martin, hey Jules, I hope you're both well. Yeah, I have a question for John, which is, when you're meditating, and you're doing a practice, how do you distinguish between what you might consider to be like object thoughts or daydreaming? And what feels more like you know, your intuition or like messages or downloads, people, let's call them from light source of the universe. Something I noticed in my own practices, the, I guess, difficulty in distinguishing between when I'm sort of listening to my intuition and like things are coming through or if I'm just daydreaming, so I'd love to know your thoughts on that and any insights?
Martin O'Toole 46:48
Brilliant, thank you, Tom. So Tom wants to know, how can we distinguish the difference between daydreaming and message from Source?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 47:04
I wonder if you where you are, Tom, if you look out the window, what do you see? Do you see clouds in the sky? Now. What happens is the sky is overcast thick with clouds. What happens when you get in an aeroplane. There's all cafuffle at the airport or the busyness, papers and things get in your aeroplane. You go up through the tower judge goodness me you can't see a thing. Then gradually the plane goes up, the towers get lighter and fluffier. Little sort of wispy things, good machinery, what happens? What's up there beyond the cloud that's what meditation is meditation is just like getting into their plane. Your method of meditation is simply a sort of where you get in it, sit back in your seat, and then go up. And you pass through if he thoughts, all sorts of things, it just cluster layer, the layer of the mind. You can think of it rather rather like your tummy, your tummy is digesting food, isn't it? And you sit here talking to me and you've forgotten about it, it's just digesting your breakfast isn't it just getting over the notes okay. Well the mind is really just just a mental digestive system and it's processing all that you've received throughout your life and all the vibrations of the world back to you can't possibly be avoided and and the cloud the clouds of the mind are just going through this process of dealing with so it's entirely natural layer of consciousness. and it serves its purpose beyond the clouds, there's the open country isn't it And all these messages and things it all just a mind you you get a free What do you want messages for your free What do you want messages? That's all just the by the higher bits of mine there's still my real meditation doesn't bother with messages. That's just We're always wanting things out we we try to want to put spirit in the little pots and boxes, intuition, go beyond it dear. whatever you comes into the mind go beyond that stuff. That's the most important word in meditation go beyond beyond beyond beyond beyond. Don't fence me in that sort of feeling. Reach for the sky, my dear. Don't mess about with thoughts or descriptions or words. This belongs in the world of duality. Freedom, freedom, freedom. You don't need anything else. One, one, you can't describe one, nobody can. Now what may happen is that assuming of course it takes many many years of practice to be able to fly up there into the sky. I don't expect you can do it to begin with. [Laughs] I've been practising for many many years and it doesn't always hgappen to me! as you come down again, you see, then you enter into into into the little wispy bits of clouds you see and you carry with you maybe maybe maybe not usually not something beyond it may that manifest itself as something from what you might go higher mind as intuition before it comes down further and get more and more complex. Sort of crystallised. But it's still the mind. meditation is really union; it's onness. Oneness is oneness; it's complete. Nothing to say.
Martin O'Toole 51:24
Thank you, John. Thank you, Tom. Thank you Faith for your questions.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 51:30
Keep going. Whatever comes into your mind, my dear, Let It Go and gotta be on no matter what vision you have boundless visions and deers and angels and things. They're just missions do there'll be a little beyond beyond beyond. Go for the jackpot.
Martin O'Toole 51:48
The jackpot of nothing! [laughs]
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 51:52
Well, nothing you see we talk about nothing. Is everything the NO THING, you see.
Martin O'Toole 51:59
Exactly
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 52:00
The no thing is reality.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 52:08
Things are imitation you see things we're everything is the world of this world.
Martin O'Toole 52:19
The Very Best of something, usually, or rather the very best of I can't get this right now. Now, it was I'm trying to paraphrase a chap called Benjamin Hoff, and he wrote a book called The Tao of Pooh. And it's, it's all about Taoism. Excuse me. But he uses poohbear. And Pooh bears friends. And Christopher Robin. And I think he says, Pooh, Pooh Bear is essentially presented as the Zen master. Because if you think about that, it poohbear spends a lot of time wanting to do nothing. And by the time you finish the book, you realise that Pooh Bear is an absolute Zen master because he finds you finds the magic, the absolute essence of the magic in nothing this anyway, I misquoted the book, Nevertheless... So John, I had another question for you. This is along the same lines of the conversation we were just having, what does it mean to be present?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 53:32
Feel your feet on the ground.
Martin O'Toole 53:39
The end. There doesn't have to be anything else.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 53:45
Feel your free on the ground my dear. Listen, if you want more you can listen. And look, which connects you with what is around you. You'll then be in the room, you'll then be present. If you see if you're thinking you'll be absent. Two eggs is eggs. Let's look at look at your dog or your cows and sheep in the field. And from them. Use your common sense. If people don't use your common sense, they're not present. Common sense means looking and listening primarily for us. The senses don't function. If you look and listen. Because we do we say I am looking, looking off we have eyes and don't see, you may end up with 1% of attention. We will say feet on the ground, but you're not aware of it. 100% My dear. Now then, if you can get to 1% 2% You're doing very well. Next month if you practice you might get up to 3% Keep going near the end of a long life you might be 50% present. Now then, have you ever met a person who's really present? You'd probably explode we simply don't know what it is to be present. If your present day one thing was short you wouldn't have any more questions Just try it for yourself what's it difficult here now? Fee on the ground bottom on the chair listen and look Here is the silence the stillness the infinite presence undivided beyond our two questions there is no dark at all not only are you free of weight, you are free of darkness eternal life you see the world with all these problems? It simply dies out. I'm doing this on screen you try to practice Be present. You see God is present. The Bible's full of phrases like God is present. God is with us. God this this spiritual see invisible presence. You can't not be in it. We're in it like fishes in the sea. You don't have to believe it. We don't have to have faiths or religions and things. It's just common sense, isn't it? All you've got to do is just be present and then you're in the presence of God. And you realise that the whole human problem is that we are absent. We're not present. And this is why everything goes wrong. This is this is to come back to our original question. And see this is why we're not happy. Because we're incomplete. I'm back to being present. And you're complete. With no division. When you look at this world, you'll see the entire world he has sort of is crystallised absence from the presence of God. It's fallen into matter, things that matter.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 58:09
Do you think it matters X, Y & Z?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 58:13
Come back here in true spirit. Spirit is on divided and arable singular Adam in the Garden of Eden is singular He lived with God,he walked with God If you want to know how to be happy then dear, be present.
Martin O'Toole 58:49
Beautiful advice, John su—sublimely delivered and you had me incredibly present. So thank you for that gift. Ghandi once said, "The best way to find oneself is to lose oneself in the service of others." what does service to others mean to you
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 59:20
Well, unselfishness, of course, is very good. at the start of the journey. It'd be a good thing if everybody—one of the first lessons of life be unselfish service indeed is a good thing. Usually if we when you love something, you usually want to serve it in some way. As a young farmer, I saw myself as a servant of the farm. I loved the land and always wanted to serve it. Very encouraging a lot of young people are now realising our dependency on land and wanting to serve it differently. And an effect of service is that we are less focused on me, this is a step towards diminishing the power of the ego. in the right direction. We start off by usually serving our own self interest. What do I want? By what we saw there was how we start gradually extending outwards, looking for others, whatever it is, we love service of in my case farming include more involve the humans seen. Usually we sell the things we like to begin with. But as love expands, we like dark taking on what we don't like, and, and serving the whole without judgement. Then finally, it gets bigger and bigger and they end up serving the whole world. And even beyond and serving to the love of God. Serving truth, serving one they really meditating you see when you serve God your life is love. Because this Presently, the spirit is now like freedom of peace spirit, it's another word for it is love with what it is that holds the whole world together. That the ocean contains all the fishes in spirit we start off serving what we can so we're inclined to begin with with the fortunate grows first commandment not can go God is Love God is Good God into everything.
Martin O'Toole 1:02:41
Thank you, John. That was a wonderful answer. I was thinking about the John Butler story this morning. Because I, I have been started to read some of your works. And I signed up to your newsletter. Excuse me. So I got your, your PDF book. And so I read a little bit of your timeline, and you've been an author, a poet, a farmer and meditator, a traveller. And now of course, you're a YouTuber, which I doubt you ever imagined would be on the list of things to do in the 'John story'. But I wondered, have you had a good time?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:03:34
in life as a whole?
Martin O'Toole 1:03:36
Yeah. All of these wonderful journeys, you've been around the world you've been to Peru, you've been to Africa, Russia, Australia, gosh knows how many other places and you've, you've been all of these, these different things, the different versions of John and I wonder if I wonder if that wound up? Is that resulted in you being able to say now, "yes, I've had a good time"
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:04:10
well I've certainly had an interesting life Don't think I'd use the adjective good for it. I hope I've learned I made a lot of mistakes. I've been very unhappy about depression. I've witnessed some terrible places. I've seen much tragedy in my life. I've seen it and experienced it wept wept many tears along the way. I like the description of this life as a veil of tears and the truth in that I suppose that's why I'm a bit suspicious of happy people. I suspect they haven't got a lot to learn. Good luck to them. [Laughs] see what's next. I feel I've been blessed and feel humbly thankful for what life has taught me. The end of it all, I feel an unworthy servant really lots of things wrong in life and not what I was required to learn Thanks be to God
Martin O'Toole 1:05:47
how important is gratitude to you?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:05:52
Gratitude? that's what I've just said isn't it, I don't know what else one can do really because she the more you realise how bogus I as an individual, how inadequate in almost everything I am it's sort of unfashionable now. To date, but I do like the word "sin". Because sin is basically the word for absence from the presence of God, which is the human condition that was not brought ourselves we're all in this respect. Everyone is similar. But it is. Another description of sin is whatever dies look at this stainless steel is going to die, isn't it? This is sin. This isn't paradise. Look at me an old man full of aches and pains. You know, this isn't what I am. This is the false me that I've caught it around variety in this body complexes and desires not happiness and all that. Well, it's been a good it's basically if I wanted to lift my hand has gone up. Basically, my feet have carried me and it's been a good servant. It's not Why should I be thankful? Well, I don't really know why I'm here what the i That's my father sent me to school in this life. And I didn't enjoy my school days as a boy but should have enjoyed by school days in this life. The joy in some of them as a lot of I've had my share of happiness in his happiest most men, I suppose. Probably happier than most. Up and down. I'm grateful for this life because because I've learnt so much. will be grateful to go home now. Have a rest. I'm tired. I've had enough.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:09
[Laughs] Well, hopefully, we're not going to lose you just yet. John. I think you I think you have a lot to offer to the world
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:08:21
well, you see, if I do, Martin it's ever more obvious that it's not me. You see what is a value? It's can't really describe it, my dear but but whatever it is, that comes out of me of value. I don't really know what it is. It's not mine. Not mine. It's really what called grace. You know, I think it's spiritual sunshine really. And that for those of us that meditate and, and and are acquainted with this upper upper layers of consciousness, spirit, something of that spirit permeate. Even through this, they have gone and somehow is conveyed. I don't know how I think that's what people pick up. Thank God for that. How could I possibly take credit for that? What I can say is next week to go. It's not really, it's not like choosing. I did want to be a public figure was pushed into it really unwillingly. I'd be quite happy when it all comes to an end. And really, I'm just humbly thankful if people found it useful.
Duane Forrest 1:09:58
[SONG] Let me die of peace in peaceful fields. Full og wheat. And a breeze that's sweet in some place. where we all grow our own food. in community with friends and family, love the sea and they love to sea, when I'm doing really good
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:10:30
you know, this is the first podcast I've ever done.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:33
Is it really?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:10:34
I don't think I've ever watched a podcast. I didn't know what what it is
Martin O'Toole 1:10:37
Wow, well thank you very much we we are doubly honoured.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:10:41
This is why I'm such a fool with technology. I've never done it before. It's the first time I've ever worn these things too
Martin O'Toole 1:10:48
Well you're doing incredibly well, sir, I must say and, and, and I'm immensely grateful for your your time and your energy. Now where were we before Rachel rang, so we were talking about gratitude and, and service to others. And I dare say whether you know it or not, you becoming an accidental YouTube celebrity has put you in, in front of many people who, who need a leg up, you need a little bit of help or motivation or inspiration, or clarity. And I think one of the things you do immensely Well, calmly and most presently is provide clarity. And in that regard, you you are helping hundreds of 1000s if not millions of people, you are in service to others who knew you could be in service to others as a YouTuber. But you you are and
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:12:02
it is extraordinary, isn't it?
Martin O'Toole 1:12:05
I often think I think that about what I'm doing with this podcast because I'm doing this podcast in service to others, you know, doesn't make any money it's but we now have this technology and these opportunities to to share these stories and these philosophies or theosophy if you like and thoughts with people, and and they often helps people.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:12:28
So, but I love the fact that you are you're quite reticent to do it. But it is a beautiful gift, John, I have to say.
Martin O'Toole 1:12:44
So what's next? What's next for John Butler?
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:13:00
Well, if I pass my exams, I suppose graduation
Martin O'Toole 1:13:03
[Laughs] From Earth school!
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:13:06
I move on to high school. Move on. Yes, that's it, dear.
Martin O'Toole 1:13:11
Brilliant to fourth density, or fifth density even. Yeah, well, I suspect to you, I suspect you're gonna pass with flying colours, John. And for what it's worth, as someone who's had a very short interaction with you, but have I have enjoyed listening to you and reading your words and watching you speak. I think I think there's no doubt whatsoever that you will pass with flying colours, and A stars for all of it.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:13:44
[Laughs] Well, you know it's funny. So those are things you know, it is odd, one's perspective changes. You see for most of your life that sort of praise is very nice, because we all love to be a success. Enough now. You know the age well, I smiled at you, as you say that kind of view that somehow it it err... I daren't possibly say, but that's all I can dare say that. Hopefully there is less of ego in me now. So that less of me to be pleased being prey. And I suppose rather like if you said like praise the sky, for example, praise the sunshine or the wind it doesn't really make much sense does it sort of I appreciate your kindness. But again, the only thing I can really say is thanks be to God because all goodness all goodness comes from this which, which is good is Jesus says don't call any man good, only God is good and it's right And see all that is absent from God this is what we call bad Joe the fundamentally John Butler is a mixture of good is bad but But all too often bad the sense of not being fully present and not being at home in paradise. The way this this whole world shadow a second hand shadow of diviine reality.. And although it's wonderful because we now know better once you get a glimpse of the higher up ever more clearly this world is simply not and neither is John Butler. It is the absence trying to get back home I suppose that's this insticnt I've had all my life. Go home. but it's in all of us of course, not just me.
Martin O'Toole 1:16:27
Yeah, I don't think I don't think it's I don't think as many people know that as, as you might imagine. I think I think we are intuition might nag us, often, many of us but because ego could be so strong that ego doesn't want to hear consciousness—sorry I've got large mosquito on me. So I think it was a wonderful thing for you to to know intuitively that you were on your way home. So early on. But I completely agree. This is an illusion. And I'm very interested to know what's next. I've had insight. I had a near death experience.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:17:22
Well, we can go forth certainly In all of my years of meditation, I've never had a bad experience that belongs down here. It's a journey to goodness. So you know that it's not so long ago that in the Bible has 365 references to fear not—don't be afraid. Intersting isn't it. And so much of our lives are ruled by fear Be not afraid because in reality we have nothing to be afraid of. This world is full of monsters. Nightmares. What happens to the nightmare when we wake up? Not as real as we think, is it? When this world comes to pass with all its horrors and tragedies and ups and downs as you ascend, the light shines ever brighter. until there's no more darkness just like when you go into a dark room switch on the light what happens to the dark?
Martin O'Toole 1:18:54
it disappears
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:19:02
Simple isn't it. Of course, the work is to discover this in reality, any fool can say this good idea. put into practice, realise it this is what takes time
Martin O'Toole 1:19:19
That's the work.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:19:20
This is why I think merciful God gives us 80 years of bumbling around in this world. It takes this luck for the better
Martin O'Toole 1:19:29
To work it out.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:19:29
To get it into our big stupid heads.
Martin O'Toole 1:19:34
So that explains the average life expectancy of human kind
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:19:37
I'm still—you know, Martin, I'm a spiritual child. I really am. I'm learning every day but the more you know the less you know. At the end of it all it's not to know anything.
Martin O'Toole 1:19:52
But that in itself is pure wisdom, isn't it? I think to accept that you know nothing.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:19:57
I thnk so. If you want to give it a name. to know that you know nothing; that you are nothing.
Martin O'Toole 1:20:06
Beautiful. Well, John, I could talk to you for several days, given half a chance, I would certainly enjoy another conversation with you. But I think at this stage we've got to curtail our podcast. And I think I've absolutely no doubt that our audience is going to really love this episode. I've phenomenally enjoyed speaking to you and listening to you, John, and I'm immensely grateful for for your time and your energy and your, your love, and, and for what you are doing. It's sharing your views and your your wisdom in the way you're doing. It is no doubt helping an awful lot of people. So thank you so much for your time.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:20:59
Thank you, Mark. And God bless you, dear. You've been the kindest of host thoughtful and and well prepared and my ears and made it easy for me. And thank you. Thank you. Once again, God bless you. God bless you, too. And I hope you enjoyed your first podcast I'm rather pleased now. I'll know what I'm talking about won't I, when people mention podcasts.
Martin O'Toole 1:21:31
I think you're a true pro.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:21:32
Well wait to see what what appears when when you do whatever you're going to do with it.
Martin O'Toole 1:21:37
Yes, I'll do some editing and try to tidy up my my fumbling around through our interview.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:21:42
Please send me a link so that I can see it.
Martin O'Toole 1:21:44
Of course. Yes. I'll be delighted to share it with you. And it'll be live next next Thursday, actually, so say Well, thank you again, John. And I'd be very glad to do to meet with you again. Yes, I'd love to get you back on the show.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:22:00
You've only do ask.
Martin O'Toole 1:22:02
Peace and love to you. Thanks.
John Butler (Spiritual Unfoldment) 1:22:04
Bye bye for now. Bye bye.
