SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, life, addiction, suffering, emotions, death, feel, cancer, talk, feeling, accept, acceptance, addicted, deep, realise, peace, happy, create, die, attached
SPEAKERS
How To Die Happy, Martin O'Toole, Tatiana Gottschalk, Julia Malcolmson
Martin O'Toole 00:28
Hi Tatiana.
Julia Malcolmson 00:28
Welcome.
Martin O'Toole 00:30
Welcome to our humble abode.
Tatiana Gottschalk 00:32
Thank you so much for having me.
Martin O'Toole 00:34
Oh. Thanks for coming. I was thinking about how long ago it was you contacted us it was a while ago, wasn't it?
Tatiana Gottschalk 00:40
Yeah, probably around three months or something?
Martin O'Toole 00:42
Yeah, sorry. It's taken us so long to make this happen.
Tatiana Gottschalk 00:46
Well, Valley busy life? No.
Martin O'Toole 00:48
Well, we also time you were just recording a lot of interviews as well. So but I suppose it's worth us just sharing with the audience how you happened upon us. And because you, you got in touch and left a series of messages for us on Instagram. And they were audio messages, which was quite unusual. But also you because it 60 seconds you get with an Instagram. Yeah, yeah, this is the thing. So Tatiana had to leave some messages for us in these little 62nd tranches, I think there were five or six. And you managed to kind of condense your story of transformation into six to six minutes. Which was incredibly impressive. But it was also a very compelling story that you told and essentially said that you wanted to come on the show and have a conversation with us. So we are delighted to have you.
Tatiana Gottschalk 01:44
I'm happy to be here.
Martin O'Toole 01:47
I don't know where we ought to begin, I suppose Like many of the guests we have on the show you you do have a true story of transformation When do you think it began for you?
Tatiana Gottschalk 02:04
Oh, that's a good question. When did it begin? Hmm. I sent you a message, because I was very inspired by your podcast. And by the title. It just spoke to me right away because I went through cancer therapy twice. And but I feel like that's not that wasn't the beginning. You know, like, it wasn't the beginning. That was the moment when I decided that I wanted to live. But before that, you know that that's actually the interesting thing. I got cancer. And I had two days of Yeah, severe, intense, crazy emotions and drama. And then I decided this is going to be a success story. This is going to be a best thing that happened to me, that might sound crazy, but it just inspired myself to to make that choice I am going to serve not just survive, I'm going to thrive I'm going to change my life. So that's not when the story begins, because there were many many, many years of did difficulties or challenges and probably it probably all started when I was around 14 and a long story of illness began like I I had all kinds of sicknesses, everything from from chronic sinusitis over histamine intolerance over other gut problems up to having the cancer, the breast cancer many and many other things like really all energy centres, the whole body was constantly telling me you are on the wrong path. Like you are not choosing life, you are not choosing trust, you are choosing out of fear. I didn't know whether right, I think that's that's something I had to learn along that transformation that to forgive myself for all the things that that I have done to my body. Also in my relationships to other people, you know, that I regret a lot, but if I keep holding on to the regrets, I will continue I will continue to make choices based on fear. I will recreate the relationship like difficult relationships. I will where I would because I will not I will. I would continue to be unhappy and not really choosing life. Yeah. And maybe I would like to add something that I haven't shared online before and that is that on top of all of these illnesses, I think the the main factor of all our that brings everything together is addiction. We talked about it briefly before addiction in a broader sense, you know, like, we can look at all the addictions for me what what is the core is is an addiction to distress maybe, you know to recreate a stressful situations to recreate situations in which our nervous system is imbalanced because it feels amazing. For a while, right? It feels amazing to just have this rash. It doesn't matter if it's the alcohol or if it's maybe also toxic relationships codependency. Yeah, whatever it is work well, big one. That was a big one for me. It all creates this feeling of Yeah, of connection, in a way. And I wanted that. And the cancer made me realise this. Yeah, now I find it in a different way. Just like clauses. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 06:21
No, thanks for thanks for that share. There's quite a lot to unpack there isn't that? I think we talk about addiction quite a lot on the show, because I'm a recovered addicts. So. And I fundamentally believe, as the you I think that there are a great many more addicts on the planet than care to admit. Yeah. And we actually just talked about that in a recent episode with Dr. Addy Jaffe, who was an addiction psychologist about the the huge percentage of people who are suffering from addiction, some form of addiction, who never seek treatment. And it's something like 90%, isn't it? I think it was higher. He said, It's recently figured out that it's a much higher percentage. So you've you've only by that rationale, broadly got 10% of people who are, who accept that they are suffering from a mental illness who seek help. And we were saying this the other day, you know, you can can you imagine if, if that was cancer, for example. So imagine if 90% of people who, who had the legitimate illness cancer said, No, I'm not going to go and get treatment? The world would be up in arms, wouldn't it? Yeah, we have this bizarre stigma. And dehumanisation of addiction. All the while, a great many of us are suffering from addiction, addictive traits. And I think so I'm more than happy to talk about it on an on an episode, because this applies to everybody. You know, we're not talking about using hard drugs here or, or drinking, you know, a bottle of vodka at night. That's, that's not necessarily what addiction is, you could be, you could be addicted to cake, you could be addicted to pornography, you could be addicted to technology, constantly picking up the phone, checking those Instagram likes for those little dopamine fixes. And then you as you, as you eluded, you can also be addicted to drama.
Julia Malcolmson 08:32
But as a society, we're not given the tools to understand that these are addictions. So it's labelled as addiction is just substances. And it's got a really negative connotation. And we kind of really need to flip that around and allow people to see that addiction is such a natural part of the human experience. We need to start recognising, recognising it within ourselves and within society, and how we can help people and
Martin O'Toole 08:57
yeah, and also being less judgmental about it. But I think it's I think it's a combination of being judgmental, and also being fearful that you would be judged if you identified as someone with one of those problems, right?
Tatiana Gottschalk 09:09
Also very interesting is for me, I could say, I'm like, I'm still an addict, in a way, you know, I mean, my mind still has the urge to create the drama, to control because ultimately, that's what I want, right? I want to control a lot of things in my life. It's, it's natural that we want that we want things to go our way. But we can learn how to deal with it in a different way. And we can, we also just talked about it finding a balance between surrender, and, and control in a way, right, because we have free will. But if we always want things our way, we will always stay to little children.
Martin O'Toole 09:52
As the Buddha said, suffering is the root or no attachment is the root to all suffering. I'm always misquotedThe Dudha on this show.Sorry, Buddha but I love to talk about attachment. Because I, I had this similar lifestyle I was I was attached to everything around me. In possessive terms, I was clearly suffering from narcissistic personalities, personality disorder. I do to my childhood, my mom was an alcoholic. So I lacked intimacy, and a lot of those fundamental family, wonderful things about family that the inform the early years of your life. So control was everything for me. Absolutely everything. If I did not have control over my environment, either physical or emotional, I became incredibly nervous. And of course, trying, therefore, to control one's environment, we don't realise is doubly unhealthy. We can't do it, we ought not to do it, we ought not do it. But also, we are then attached to an outcome, aren't we? And as the Buddha was saying, Before I'm misquoted Him. If we are attached to an outcome constantly, then we are we're going to be disappointed constantly. And that's where we where we suffer. But I was interested in your point about drama addiction, as it's, it's something I think a lot of people don't necessarily consider. But stress and drama, of course, creates chemical reactions in our body. And we can become addicted to that feeling. And I had this exactly the same thing. It was workaholism, or it was some sort of drama, I needed to be in fight or flight. I suppose that's what you're talking?
Tatiana Gottschalk 11:47
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's like self harm. For me, it was really harming me. And part of me wanted that a part of me wanted to harm me to like, when I did something wrong, when I wasn't good enough, you know, this feeling came a lot up a lot Old, old, old patterns that I'm aware of now. So when I when now, I see this pattern come up, and I feel that I'm not good enough, then I look at it, and I go through it. But this is this is the key, right? Like, I used to not be able to do that. And then drinking or Yeah, or over eating or working too much. And it just helped me to not look at it. Just to harm myself. Yeah. So So yeah, turning that around and starting to love yourself, it goes deep. And I must say that, if you if you have cancer, or if you've had cancer, the the patterns go so deep, there are so many. So you can only unfold one at a time. It can you cannot solve everything. And so it's a process, and we all have our stories, right. And we all have this process of transformation that would really, I think, almost everybody goes through this process, the courageous people, because it's a natural desire of people to grow. But yeah, it's um it's just, it's a, it's a process, and I'm still in it, and I will be in it for the rest of my life. And I am totally okay with that. Because this is making me a better person. So for me, everything that happens from now is grounded in my past, so it makes sense. So I can accept it, and forgive myself and start over. And and sometimes I can forgive myself, and I go back, I forgive myself again. And I started over again, because personal development processes are not linear. It's just no, I'm and I really want to normalise this. That's why I'm saying this, because so many coaches out there feel like they have to be perfect, but it's a journey of self acceptance and self love.And we all do it. And we can do it together. And there's a beauty.
Julia Malcolmson 14:15
Yeah, and everything's a spiral isn't it, you go up a little bit, we come back down, we go up, we come down and it's you have to access to the pain further away from the pain and so on and so forth.
Martin O'Toole 14:25
But I love what you said that I think is I guess it's it's almost in danger of sounding like a cliche these days, but but it's still immensely relevant and more people ought to be having this conversation about the stigma of mental health. Because so many people are ashamed of, of the mental illness or shortcomings or, you know, when I say mental illness, by the way, you know, I'm not talking this is for the audience's sake. I'm not talking about necessarily someone who's locked up in a in a In a sanitarium like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, you know, there are varying degrees of mental illnesses that many of us suffer, right. But I think there's still a huge stigma attached to it that we must constantly try to bash down or, or to encourage down in a loving way, you know, because until we have a situation where everyone is more than willing to talk about these things, and perhaps, you know, be as vulnerable as you're being right now on this podcast, and when we were conversing with each other right now. We're, we're, I guess we're, we live in a bit of a bubble in Bali, in which is there are an awful lot of people who have come to Bali seeking healing, been embraced by the Lund, and by the magic and magical energy of the place. And so it's not uncommon for you to meet a total stranger in Bali, and within three minutes. They know everything. You've told them everything. And they've told you everything. It's not a one way, you know, emotional burp is it is. It's a it's a really fascinating, vulnerable and authentic way to exchange with one another. Anyway, sorry, I rambled.
Tatiana Gottschalk 16:20
Now, that creates deep intimacy, and I've believed it and connection. And this is what we all want. And that's why we are drinking and eating and doing all of these things and creating drama, because what we actually want is this intimacy and connection. And that's why I really, I mean, I really sometimes feel like we're spread, we're starting a fire here in Bali, and it's spreading all over the world, because it's the fire of love and connection and intimacy and authenticity. And not in a way that we have to show off, you know, like what we went through, but really just making it normal, making it normal,
Martin O'Toole 16:57
it was normalising it. And certainly, personally speaking. That's why we do this podcast, I want to share some stories and utilities with people I want to be able to say, Lo. Few years ago, I was staring down the barrel of a loaded shotgun, I was that close to blowing my brains out. And now I live here with my beautiful queen, the sun shining, we were a bunk we have abundance of all manner of things. We live in a relatively peaceful and harmonious life, and we're very lucky in it. And I just want people to, I want people to have that same opportunity through perhaps considering some of the modalities and philosophies and concepts that that are regularly discussed on this show. With that in mind, I wanted to ask you about your cancer. Do you believe your cancer was inherited? Or do you believe that you created it yourself through the way you were living and the way you were processing and holding on to your emotions and embodying in somatic terms?
Tatiana Gottschalk 18:04
Yeah, I I truly believe that it's. So first, I want to say, I believe it's different for everybody. And this is what I have experienced. For my clients, you know, because I go into their minds with them looking at root causes for illnesses, not necessarily right now, because I've been working less with cancer patients, but I worked for three years with a lot of cancer patients and everybody has a different route reason. I believe, because you asked me for the reason, right? I believe in intention. I think we get sick because there is a deep intention behind it. At least for me, this is true, you know, I the drama addiction. And that's why I talk about this openly because I really think it's so connected with the cancer. I unintentionally, unintentionally or unconsciously, I unconsciously followed that that pattern in my mind that was telling me that I wasn't good enough. I wasn't good enough. I wasn't good enough. I wasn't good enough. And I'm I'm just pretending to be good enough. In everything I was doing. I was a mom of three children. I you know, I studied, I studied I married very early at the age of 24. At at the age of 23, 24. I got pregnant. I studied with the children. I made it work we were working we were studying we have the children Then I started, I used to be a coach. over 12 years ago, I used to be a coach, a personal coach, I studied sports, and then everything shifted, and I had to sell my company and I studied business. And while I was studying business, I had the children. And then I ended up in a huge and like one of the biggest banks in Germany, which was totally not what I had envisioned, out of fear. Because because I had two children, and I had to provide for them. And internally, I just felt like, Okay, I have to do all of these things, instead of following what my heart was telling me, which was to walk a different path. And to take care of myself more, at that time, after having two children. My body was in such a bad shape, I was so depleted, I was drinking a lot. I was overworking all the time, I was the best mom at home, organising everything parties, meeting people doing what my husband wants from me, I was in a toxic relationship. And five years ago, I knew I cannot do this, like I have to stop. And the voices were so loud. And I told you before I was sick, you know, like, literally, mostly all the time, since the age of 14, I body was screaming, take care of yourself, love yourself, stuff. You don't have to do doo doo doo doo to be good enough. Just breathe, stop, life has your back. But I just didn't know how that feels. That's why I created all of this, you know, like, just, I was just in this doing mindset. And that's when I got the cancer. And I had the third child decided to pay, you know, like, two children are not enough. Let's do masters. business education and coaching because I knew I wanted to go back and coach again. And the mental training, you know, like the life coach certificate, all of that. But I got the cancer in my last semester. And and then I decided to not finish my master. Because I was like, No, that's enough. I've had so many messages. But I still wasn't ready to go. Like I wasn't ready to leave my my ex husband. I felt like it wasn't possible. All of that, you know, like the society everything that we build up all the all the patterns. And it all started with this feeling that I'm not good enough. You know? Oh, so I truly believe that the cancer is we have the patterns, but the patterns alone, they don't create the cancer, following the patterns, following the thoughts, creating a life based on these thoughts that are fear based. That creates the cancer and going back to the root, it's it is often this route, the feeling that we're not good enough, you know? Yeah. But yeah, but it shows itself in different ways. And for me, I had to find a way to feel good enough. And I found it through spirituality through connection to a power that is greater than myself. For me, that is life. I see life lifeforce as my power that is greater than me, because it also entails that the right word, like contains the distraction part because life is not just all happiness and great, its shadow and light and my higher power, I needed to have a higher power that is balanced. And it really helps me to have a very deep deep connection with life. Every day and I see it everywhere I see it in you. I see it in in groups and people I see it in nature. I even see it in technology because all his life. And by life I am held that gives me such strength. One that I can always go back to that even if I get disappointed. No, seeing that it all makes sense in the end.
Martin O'Toole 24:40
But disappointment is a natural part of living as well, isn't it? I think I had a conversation not too long ago with a an incredible human being who we were talking about happiness. And he said, You know I've always been very suspicious of happy people. and which is, which is a lovely thing to say. But then I felt the need for to, for us to delve into what happiness is what happy means because I think, yeah, I mean, I think I would be mistrusting of someone who just walked around smiling like an idiot all the time. But that's not what we mean is it know when we talk about what it is to be happy, and I was having this conversation with Jules the other day, I think when you can get to the point where you are not attached to things you can be connected without being attached. So you surrender as you were saying, surrender to the flow. So and you don't suffer through that surrendering. You flow. You find a sense of happiness, but then you've to be mindful not to become attached to that sense of happiness as well. So I, for me anyway, personally speaking, it's it's, it's a delicate dance of awareness and observation, on a on a daily, hourly, minute daily basis. Although I've not been that mindful in the last 24 hours, because of some recent events that have occurred, and an honest and honest acceptance of every day of where you're at and how you're feeling. Yeah, yeah. Totally without that acceptance. Without that honesty, you're just kind of you're just pushing it down there, aren't you? And that's what then can create and manifest other things. We're not being authentic either. That's the thing. And I think so something because I've sort of started to become, you know, the happy guy on the on the on the, on the happy podcast. Yeah, I think it's, it's an important point to make to, to people, you know, I'm not always happy. But I am always happy.
Tatiana Gottschalk 26:54
Yeah. It's like a contentment, a deep contentment. No, like, it's like peace, peace. Yeah. I love peace, acceptance, and gratitude, practising acceptance and gratitude. And I just recently felt like, I went to the next level with this, like, inside, you know, like, this feeling of deep contentment, even when everything around me is just falling apart. But it also I mean, we are in the how to die happy podcast, right. So I feel like this is important to say, for me, with the acceptance of death. A lot of happiness came into my life. Like, when I got the cancer and I was going through chemo, I did 16, chemo therapies over six months. That was so intense, but I made it my challenge to, to accept at focus on acceptance and gratitude throughout the whole process. And it was actually in comparison to day to day life. Easy. Because when we have a challenge, it's easier to focus, you know, in the day to day, sometimes, you know, you just focus on everything else, but staying in this in a space of peace difficult. Yeah, for me, it's also neutrality in a way, you know, in between yin and yang, oneness, whatever you want to call it, that our States
Martin O'Toole 28:31
it's a wonderful perspective to have, because many people would not have that perspective. Many people naturally would fall back on their sense of suffering. And that's another thing we're addicted to, by the way, isn't it? No, we are addicted to suffering. We, we love it, we, some of us feel a little bit lost if we've got nothing to complain about. And if we have nothing to complain about, then we'll create a situation where we can then put their full complaint.
Julia Malcolmson 29:02
And again, that's an that's an effort to get connection, isn't it? A connection? And I suppose, attention.
Tatiana Gottschalk 29:11
So if that is the intention, how can we get it? Anyways? You know, that's, that's what I keep asking myself and clients and other people. How can like if we are 100%, honest to ourselves, when we are sick or whatever. And when we want something, we want suffering, sometimes I want suffering, and now I'm more aware of it. And you know what I do then I do a kundalini yoga kriya because, and if if, if we don't challenge ourselves, life will challenge us. So we can actually figure out what our intentions are and live in a more intentional life, and then give us what we need. Also the shadows, also the dark sites because it's a part of us. So that's why I think you know, like happiness, it has to contain He has to contain this part. Yeah, all these shadows, the darkness and accepting that and having fun with it. Having fun with it.
Martin O'Toole 30:09
I think this that's the point, isn't it the word acceptance. And I've said this several times in this podcast, but there's a chap called Alan Watts, who wrote a book called The meaning of happiness. And the original title of the book was the anatomy of acceptance. Which I thought was beautiful. But the publishers obviously changed it. And so we like to talk about acceptance a lot on this on this show, because I think that's, that is very much part of the root of, of, of happiness is to be able to accept anything in everything that life throws at you. As I was writing the other day about this, and I found myself writing about the alchemy that comes with a lifestyle where you are at peace with everything that comes that gets thrown at you. Don't get me wrong, something gets thrown at you, you can it's perfectly human to lose your shit in the the 510 15 minutes around that event, we are human. But actually, if you can then very quickly, rise to a higher state of consciousness. Observe yourself, observe your words, thoughts and actions. without judgement, there's a there's an alchemy that occurs in my experience anyway. And it's an alchemy inside my, my mind and body. But it's also an external alchemy. Because the energy around me the universe, if you like around me, responds well to that. Well done you appear to be accepting things? Yeah, we're working on it. Yeah, well, carry on. I think we'll probably just deliver you a little bit of peace for a while then. Because you appear to have picked up a lesson or two there? Well, yeah, I think I have. But obviously, it's all spirals, isn't it? Yes, it is spirals. But that's about you have a little bit of peace and quiet for the next couple of months. Do you know what I'm talking about? might sound a little bit insane. It may sound very insane to people listening. But there is there is an alchemy to it. And I can't it's a metaphysical alchemy that cannot be explained this to do with our connection, use the word connection beauties and
Tatiana Gottschalk 32:23
Its an experience to we have to experience it to know what we're talking about. Right now. We have to experience it.
Martin O'Toole 32:30
Yes. It's not a it's not an intellectual knowing is it's a knowing knowing. And it's quite difficult to articulate to people but I you know, we were talking about the matrix recently, you know, the movie. And I, the expression I used to describe this alchemy is bending the matrix. Neo is suddenly able to flex with the system to, to work with it in a whole different way. And that's kind of how I feel when when I'm in flow, really in flow, setup, really feeling flow at the moment because when,
Julia Malcolmson 33:07
again, you go that's you go in and out of flow. Like there's the ebb and the flow. So, you know, obviously, we would like to try and stay within that space. But as you said, we're human. So sometimes you you come out of that space, and you need to take a breath and use the utilities that you've been learning along the way to help you stay in that space for a little bit longer. And then you can every time you might be like boy, and when they're a little bit longer this
Martin O'Toole 33:34
absolutely we had a situation last night where a guy on a scooter, we were in the car for an hour and the scooter just clutters up, just stopped right in front of us and we nearly killed him. And his bike got caught on the bumper and it tore some of the bumper off oh my god, I bumped him because obviously he was stuck to was stuck to the car at that point. And we nearly killed this guy. And I have. Honestly, I've been in a lot of scrapes in my life. But this was a shocker, wasn't it? And so, you know, I was shocked, worried that I was going to kill this guy because he careered off the road to knee but then he managed to get back in and I was angry because he started to ride off and then I shouted, wait, wait, wait, wait, I need your insurance details. And he came back and it just gave us a lot of attitude. We sort of tried to put the blame on you. And and I was really trying to keep my self together. But then he gave and it was it was lay the blame on me but also with a load of male bravado, you know? And I honestly I nearly hit him and nearly knocked him off his bike and it's it's the closest I've come to an act of violence in years. I used to be quite a violent man. And so that's that's what I'm referring to in terms of, you know, kind of being a little bit out of kilter, the last 24 hours
Julia Malcolmson 34:58
but also both of you are We all were in shock. So that just completely triggers a different emotional release. And it's an emotion that you've not, you've not felt for quite a long time. You're not. You're not kind of in that space, that practice of being able to take yourself out of that and just take a moment.
Martin O'Toole 35:16
Yeah, it's a very well, it's a very difficult thing to replicate in practice, isn't it? I think that sort of feeling. All that said. He's sitting there saying, well, is Bali what you need to do? I'm going to insurance I'm gonna need money, so I'm not paying for your car. And, and I, something happened in me where I suddenly just step back, took a breath. And as you said, are you alright? Anyway? Alright, are you alright? You know, this kind of weird attitude? I said, I'm in the I'm in the one tonne car. I'm alright. You're on a scooter. Are you alright, buddy? Yeah, yeah, I'm alright. Thanks. Thanks. I am okay. All right, good, because we nearly killed you then. And I'm just glad we didn't kill you. So if you haven't got any money in young gun insurance, fair enough. Shirky. Sundar said I'll pay for the damage, just please, slow down. And so I'm replaying this for this conversation, because that's progress. For me, Martin, the man on the mend who, you know, many people who've known me over years and years, there's no way Martin version 1.0 would have done that five years ago, I would have bitten him, I would have bitten pieces of him. And he would have been on the road injured, regardless of the car. So it was a strange experience a lesson another another beautiful lesson. But I guess that's what I mean about being unhappy and happy at the same time. Yeah, pretty good example.
36:54
Julia Malcolmson 37:05
I'd love to come back a little bit into your story. And obviously, you were telling us about your cancer, your the treatment for cancer, and also that moment where you you decided I want to live? Like, I'm assuming that that's all kind of comes together when you had that point. And that realisation and I'd love it if you could talk a little bit more about about that.
Tatiana Gottschalk 37:25
Yeah, I tapped into it a little bit before that, the realisation came pretty, pretty fast. When I got the diagnosis, I was really in shock. Because I was 31. I had three children. And in my mind, I was living a healthy life. A part of me deep inside, I knew I wasn't but but I projected that, you know, I was projecting that for so many years, people never saw me drink. I was the healthy yoga meditation. You know, like I studied sports, doing sports, having the beautiful family, having kids working, having a crazy career, all of that. That's what who I was. And a part of me believed the story. So that part, and in the moment I got the diagnosis was completely shocked. Like, I'm 31 How can I have cancer, like, nobody has cancer at 31. And I also didn't know that the chances of surviving breast cancer are quite high. At that time, for me, that was a death sentence. So really, the first moment oh my god, I'm going to die. But I'm so young, I have so many things I want to do. And then i i Just allow myself everything to feel everything. Not number myself. Lie on the floor, like a little child screaming my hats because like I send everybody away. Really letting loose. Feeling all the emotions, all the frustrations of the many years, coming back more and more to, to my truth. And to to my true authentic self. To that part of me that I shoved away because I was projecting something else, you know? So I was trying to in these two days I was really looking at that Tatiana that was unhappy and doing things that she didn't want to do and not following her through truth. And that Tatiana, my soul, my soul was already on her way out of my body, you know like she was she was like, Damn like, if you don't treat your All righty, well, how can I survive in this? How can I, you know, like, if you treat me, the body, the mind, if you treat us that badly, I have to go because I can't do this anymore. And then I connect it with my soul for the first time in many years, and, and I just felt that I'm not ready, I can change, I can turn this around, I can take care of myself, and I knew it will not be easy, will not be easy. And there will be a lot of things that I have to change that I don't want to change. And I wasn't the word aware yet what it was like the relationship. I wasn't aware, I wasn't conscious about it, I just knew I can do it, I will do it. And I made the choice I want to live, I will live and I will not just live any life, I will have a really good amazing life, as good as as good as as it gets, you know. But in that moment, I accept it. That this good, amazing life might be an imperfect life. But with good and amazing. I mean, what we just talked about, you know, happiness in a different way. Because the Emperor accepting the imperfect life creates the most amazing, doesn't it? Yeah. So I accepted that imperfection, or at least I started accepting it. And I'm still learning to accept the imperfection of life more and more, because I've, I just lately had to make a very hard choice. And sometimes we make choices between bad and worse. But making that choice empowered me and made me realise, okay, it began there and began in these first two days of my cancer therapy. And it's still continuing, and now I have to do the work. Now I have to be confident, and trusting myself, my soul myself, this higher version of me, you know, and listen to that. Making choices. Not waiting until life chooses for me. No, I said this on another episode recently, what you're not choosing what you're not changing, you are choosing. And choice and free will, in my opinion, are two superpowers that we all have, yet they are so broadly overlooked. as such.
Martin O'Toole 42:42
I did I overlooked them for a long, long time. i It never occurred to me how empowering is to take control of your own sovereignty? Because let's be honest, if you don't, who else is gonna? For you? Right? Well, life will take care of life to take care, isn't it? And and as I think you've you've rightly identified, and we've certainly discussed on several of episodes in this podcast, if you sit by and allow life to take care of it, a tsunami is going to hit you. It's not going to end the way you hope it's going to end because we can assume a number of roles in life, can't we? One of them is victim. And if we assume the role of victim, then we are naturally waiting to be rescued by a saviour. Yeah. Newsflash, you are your own saviour. We are our own healers, we are our own rescues. And certainly that was a big lesson for me.
Tatiana Gottschalk 43:46
So can I add something to that? Please do because I must say that I, I'm absolutely of the same opinion. But I also think that sometimes we do need the saviours and the saviours can be, you know, God, life, whatever you want to call it, the higher power works through these people. Because when I was at my lowest point, I had, I had people who helped me out for a moment, which showed me that it is not by doing something for me necessarily, but by showing me that it is possible to change that it is possible. It is possible to love life and to be abundant and prosperous internally right, not just money wise. And, and happy. I'm glad you made that distinction. I I think the point is,
Martin O'Toole 44:41
someone can either come along and rescue you, or someone could enable you. I use the same analogy, where I say um, I will gladly plant seeds for anyone, but I am not watering your garden. Got my own garden that needs watering you I'm pretty rubbish at looking after plants so there's a distinct there's there is a distinction to be made that I'm glad you highlighted it taking some control of our own sovereignties is a real big deal. And I think for many reasons societal reasons conditioning, we have have gotten to the point as a species where it's all too easy to just assume that someone else is going to take care of your shit for you. And I but I genuinely feel that we are on a ruinous see a wave of change right now where there's a rise in the collective consciousness where people are suddenly understanding their own power as creative beings again, and stepping into that right, in so many different ways. And long may that reign because I think that that's going to be the the difference where more and more people see a really trying life event, as you did. And then you have two options here. Why is this happening to me? Or what can this teach me? And I think in that regard, there's no doubt in my mind that everyone we come into contact with has a lesson for us. Yeah, might not want the lesson might not be a pleasant flavour. Last night, you know, my interaction with the chap on the bike, there was a lesson for me there. And I think I just managed to get away with learning it just
Julia Malcolmson 46:35
when you start opening up to seeing that and realising that every interaction is that you might be to give them a little lesson or a little, little spark, but it also it could well be there for you. And it's just remembering that in every every interaction you have, and taking, taking the time to kind of think, okay,
Martin O'Toole 46:54
and every interaction and not just interaction of course event, you know, I talk about the the idea of the Trojan horse. So a bad event and I'm doing air quotes for the people who are just listening, a bad event is still a Trojan horse. For something else for a gift. We just have to, we might have to look harder, we might have to get right inside that Trojan horse to work out what it is. And that's the work isn't it? It is I also just thought about something because I got really good at that, like so good. That I just saw the positive and everything, really, but I had to realise that I was bypassing bypassing my feelings so that just on a side note that it is so important to YES to to to feel the feelings because if we're angry and frustrated about situation find that's what it is. But it's a it's a feeling in the body. Right. We wanted to feel the body feeling the body
Tatiana Gottschalk 47:56
working for the works, isn't it? Yeah, that's an emotional response in the body. We tend to try to think our feeling and all like put put them aside with our thoughts. There's just think them away. But feeling them letting them go. Doesn't have to take long. And then yeah, then we can see the you can see the benefit even often. Very early on. But yeah, I think I'm right now on my own personal path. On on the pastor balance more and more, you know, like, I went to the one extreme, I went to the other extreme, I was the extreme victim, and then it was a hero. And now I'm like trying to find Okay, wait, where's the neutral space in between that because I don't want to be here. Oh, that's exhausting. I don't want to be a victim. That's exhausting. Like, let's find a balance. That's where I'm coming from, you know?
Martin O'Toole 48:48
Yeah, well, good for you for for acknowledging that you know where you are, as well in in the on the journey. I think I I too, will swing like a pendulum. And in actual fact, you alluded to this earlier, and I'd like to talk to you both about this. Because it seems like the right time, there are many utilities available to us tools available to us in moments like what we've just been discussing. So so my situation last night with the with the chap, I was carrying a lot of negative energy after that. I was there was a there was a thunder cloud over my head wasn't there. And and Jules rightly said you need to, you need to shake it off. You literally need to shake it off. And you know, and I'm sure I've talked about this on the podcast before we've even though it's our two dogs have a fight. When the dogs have finished fighting, they step away from each other, and they shake the boat. They literally shake themselves from head to toe. And I'm sure there's been studies done on this. I can't quote it so I won't talk too much about it. But it is it is In the perceived that they are shaking off that negative energy, so as not to embody it. And it's very natural for animals to do not so natural for us, right? But so what are your go to utilities then in a situation where, okay, something's happened, an event has happened. It's a negative, let's say it's a negative event. I'm going to sit with it, I'm going to observe it as a gift, I'm going to, I'm going to do what I do, because I'm that aware now, which is brilliant. But But I still need to honour my body. And I still need to remember my humanity. So what you mentioned Krias earlier on.
Tatiana Gottschalk 50:39
Yeah, Kundalini Yoga is definitely a big one. It, it helps me to not even get into that state anymore. Because my motions just, I don't know, they just flow through because the channel is open. If I practice every day, that helps me a lot. But if I, if the charged emotional charges too much, you know, like, you have a busy day with children and work and you're just doing doing doing and then something like yesterday, like happens, something bad. It might be too much still, even if you practice everyday. I really love shaking. There's an Osho meditation that I like to do. It's 15 minutes shaking 15 minutes dancing. 15 Wait. Yeah, yeah, 15 minutes dancing, 15 minutes, sitting or standing meditation, and then 15 minutes just lying on your back. If it's severe, and I really need to let it go. Other than that, I also what helps me personally a lot is to speak or to write, even though that's not the whole body, but it is an act of doing. So what we i For me, this helps a lot like not like really speaking from the emotion, connecting with the emotion, if it's anger, I ask a friend, if a person shouts at you, if you would, he or she would witness me, because I've realised that this is something that I often want. I enjoy being witnessed. In my emotion, it helps me to feel loved and held even more. I don't need it as much as I used to. Because now I feel loved and held and I feel this presence of life. It constantly it's just becoming so present. Now more and more, because I've been practising this for so long, but it's still nice sometimes to show.
Martin O'Toole 52:45
Yeah, no, I I'm with you.
Tatiana Gottschalk 52:47
Like scream, I guess it did like it. I don't know, like, what toxic relationship, you know, ex stories, whatever, just like really letting it out. And then it's okay. It's enough, you know, we have to accept that too. Like, that's a space. And then I close it down again and give it space inside of me outside of me. I come back to my centre, because that's what people forget. Many who do emotional release, then you attach when you attach to their motion, it gets more, and then it didn't serve you. Right?
Martin O'Toole 53:21
Yeah, this is something we ought to talk about more on the show, because it's a wonderful opportunity to give people advice as to how to shake it off how to get rid of that energy. Emotion is energy in motion. And if, in many situations, we can track that energy and parts of our body, right. And of course, that's what causes it dis ease disease.
Julia Malcolmson 53:43
I think most of us grew up being told to do that with your emotions. It's, it's bad to be angry, it's us the good and the bad word. So everything's got that label. It's negative or positive, but it's not because it's an emotion and all emotion is if you're going to use the term it's technically it is good because it's part of who we are. Which valid, isn't it? We need to feel those emotions and learn also learn how to talk about Yeah, I think there's so the language related to emotions is what we know of is so small in comparison to actually what there is in the range of emotions and feelings.
Tatiana Gottschalk 54:17
And we talk about what we think the emotion is instead of talking the actual about the actual that's what I'm when I sensation, sensation. Thank you. Yeah. So because I just had a client yesterday and we had an emotional relief moment. She couldn't, she felt like she couldn't speak about something. And then an ally guided her to feel to feel the emotion and she felt that she had this. This deep feeling in her in her throat and in her chest, which is where she she's sick and she has she has an audition with the lungs, you know, so there is something there. It keeps coming up. It's always the same thing. She cannot speak your truth and she started telling me about all these like deep layers of sensations that she was feeling going deeper and deeper into it until she knew what it was. She just intuitively knew why she was feeling that and then she just blurted it all out. And after that it was gone. And it can be so simple, though. It's a continuous. So what she's learning is to do that, and that she actually has that ability. You know, she got that wasn't a trance, hypnotist. So she wasn't trance and and feeling it, connecting with the body, releasing it, finding ways to do that alone, finding ways to do that with trusted people, and then finding ways to do that with maybe people that might judge her and then actually face the resentment. But yeah, that's the process, you know, in her case. And I will see, she's also on the Met, obviously, I'm not ever working with people to heal them in that way, like in physical level, I'm helping them to learn how to accept themselves and to find deeper peace, you know, happiness. And it can happen that the person gets a lot better on an emotional and spiritual level, and at the same time, physically, but usually, the people I work with are also going through therapy, like for some kind of medical therapy.
Martin O'Toole 56:28
I mean, addition. Oh, that makes sense. Well, I wanted to talk to you also about the another aspect of your work, which is, which I miss, I'm presuming you can tell me if I'm wrong that it came about from from your your own brush with death. Because you now spend time working with others who are terminally ill, and and or perhaps not terminally? Ill I don't know. If you can tell us a little bit about that. And I'd be quite interested to have that conversation.
Tatiana Gottschalk 56:59
Yeah. Yeah, for the past three years, I've mostly worked with cancer patients or people who have other illnesses that can or that lead to death. And at the beginning, like I didn't even plan to go back to coaching. I've no one knew I wanted to. But then I started having this community online. That kind of grew, because I felt like I had something to share. And we were sharing with each other. And then well, the first client came to me for months of transformational coaching. And I was very resistant to working with cancer patients because I went through that myself. Like, can I do that? Can I deal with this? Can I be neutral enough? Can I did I do enough work internally to to hold that space? And I just thought okay, let's let's try. And I tried and and it's been such a rewarding work, because I've learned so much about myself to biolog was holding that space. And I've faced death so often, like I've I just have goosebumps all over my body right now. Because well, I've accompanied also a lot of people to their deathbed. And at the beginning, it broke me it really broke me because I was very attached. And then I learned to stay in a compassionate space. And to really accept death as a part of life as an important part of life. And also to see that the death of that one person even if it might be it White might feel like it's way too early for somebody who was 26 when I was children, you know to die and the whole family will be affected to see the whole family system and to see how much healing there was though, because when people die it often brings others together. In other truth Yeah, and as I said, like I was just goosebumps all the time because it's so difficult to speak about death because I know that many people are very afraid of death and see it as the worst thing that can happen not but there are cultures who see it differently even Balinese culture or I lived in Mexico for a while, you know, they celebrate death. We have a lot of deaths also in life right? Little this Yeah, now. Now when somebody dies, I am sad, I have emotions. I'm human. But I wish them well. And I know that I just deeply know that. This is what needed to happen now. It is a part of everything. And I played a part in make me you'd be making that person's life a little bit better or not me making it but helping that person to find some more peace, some more happiness. Accept their life path. Except also, when, you know, I had a lot of people who were regretting how they dealt with the body, how they, like, I know, like I sometimes have, and I'm like, Why did I do this to myself? But yeah, I didn't know better. I just didn't at that time. I wasn't ready, it was a part of my path. If I wouldn't have treated myself badly first, for a while, I would not understand other people who did that. Now I do. Also, you wouldn't be the version of you, you are now exactly. And if I die, now, if I die next week, I will die happy. I will. And but I don't, I'm not ready to die. Me neither I want to live. So the thing is, all these clients, there were a lot, there were a lot that were able to accept that they were dying. But there were also some who were not. And who were really fighting with life. And with everything that happened to them. That was, that was very sad for me, you know, but we all are on our own path. And this is something if you believe that you come back, you know, something that we can resolve in the next life. But yeah, it's, it's still like this work is brings up a lot of emotions, and I don't want to be cold. I want to live with an open heart. So I allow that. I allow the emotions to come through. And if I work with people for months, one on one, you can imagine how deep it goes. In hypnosis, you know, I look into the subconscious mind of this person. I go with them there. I, I probably get as deep as Yeah, not many people go as deep with people, you know, yeah, you'll you'll know that under their subconscious unconscious is. Yeah, and I suppose yeah, and I can't imagine what that would be like to then to get to know someone on that level. And to, to, to build that kind of trusting relationship. And then for them to die. And then he died. And you preparing for it as well, right? It's like, like, like, I would say, maybe 40% of my clients are debt. Some of them were friends that I went through cancer therapy with. And, yeah, it's just, it's a path of acceptance, every time also, that we are here to accompany each other through, sometimes we don't have to attach and feel like we always have to be together. It is it's just a part of life. And I wish them well, it's I am grateful. I'm very, very, very grateful that I got to experience this, and especially the people that in the end, accepted life deeply with death, as a part of it. It is, there is nothing more inspiring than that. Really sort of said, like, working with a person or knowing a person that accepts death, really. And lives life in that way. It's it's so deep, you know, it also sounds like a very beautiful experience to be a part of, sort of the end of someone's life. As they're transitioning. We put a lot of focus, of course, on to birth. But I, you know, when it comes to death, it's sort of it's very taboo, and we put it around the corner, because we think I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to talk about it, but actually to give somebody that support. And so be with them and work through things during that transition.
Julia Malcolmson 1:03:58
It to me seems like it's something very beautiful to be able to share, but also, what a gift.
Tatiana Gottschalk 1:04:04
No, I'm great. And I can only do that because I faced it myself. And but on the on the other hand, you know, it's my work has changed a lot. And in the last year, in the last year, I've been focusing a lot more on life. And maybe also because in me a lot of things changed. And I really chose to Yeah, you know, to come here on my own and to make all these let's say brave choices. That took a lot for me, the stories and my story is just changing, evolving. And, and yeah, the clients that I have now are very different. Also, like I haven't had a client that is dying. And I haven't six months, I think Yeah, six months. I mean, just recently two clients have died. But it's, it's a part of it. It's it's part of the last years and My clients now they, they are in the middle of life. And that's beautiful, too. It's, it's beautiful. It's a very different work. But I, I must say that the work that I did with the clients that were dying, gave me so much insights into life. Because we looked into death so deeply, that that now I understand life very differently. And I feel like better, like, better. And that's why it's, it's fun to now look at the different I can add different slides.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:39
And we'll imagine it's, well, obviously, the podcast called How to die happy. So the point and the original point and purpose of this podcast was to discuss and try to address the deathbed regrets.
How To Die Happy 1:05:56
I'm writing a book, also called How to die happy. And I've obviously had to spend a great deal of time examining our relationship with death in in that book. And, of course, as you already alluded, depending on where you are in the world, we have very different relationships in the West, I think we have a much more perverse relationship with death. And it is, as Jules said, you know, we don't want to talk about it. It's a taboo. In the UK, if you start talking about death, if we were having a conversation like this, it wouldn't be unusual for someone to say, Why are you talking about death, it's so morbid. morbid. The word is the definition really is about an unhealthy relationship with death, but then also who defines what's healthy and unhealthy. For me, it's incredibly healthy, to always have an eye on the fact that we are not going to be here forever.
Martin O'Toole 1:07:00
And there's a beautiful book called The Tibetan Book of Living in dying by Rinpoche. And that talks is obviously inspired by The Tibetan Book of the Dead. But that talks in great detail about how we might wish to consider reframing everything we view about life, and death. So that every day, we are prepared for death, and it's really the, this is where all of these things that we've been talking about all come back into play. It's a wonderful cosmic soup. Because actually, it's about being mindful. It's about the power of now it's about the present, living in the present moment, and having that awareness to, and gratitude, use the word gratitude earlier on, just to be able to sit here on this terrace, you know, with this sifter ism of the wind blowing through the trees right now and all these species of birds and just to be able to, you know, breathe that in, with this immense sense of gratitude. It's really odd little things like that, that make all the difference, isn't it? Yeah. Because next time, I might be driving down the street and the guy on the scooter does this thing. And I swerve and I hit a lamppost. And that's the end of me. Which would suck. But I don't, I, I like you, I'm ready to die. So if you told me I had five minutes left to live right now, I wouldn't have a list a long list of regrets, I would have a long list of things that I was immensely grateful for. And I would spend those five minutes feeling that gratitude and, and that's probably one of the things I want for this, for the, for the listeners of this podcast,
Tatiana Gottschalk 1:08:53
I have something that just coming through. Because for me, this is like when we die. I really believe that dying in a highest state of consciousness, like gratitude, or happiness or bliss, that, that that is actually what heaven means, you know, like, we go to heaven if we, if we can be in that space, if we let go of the regrets in life and find peace. And the opposite, you know, what I really believe like, that's the concept of hell and having that it's about that, to to be in that in that space. And the more we are in that space in life, we can experience heaven on earth here we can be in trance states, trans settler states, you know, trans states feel the bliss feel though it's not about bliss, not meaning, being high in ecstasy, but really being at peace and acting from that space because then we can only create peaceful things and not more of what we already have, you know, coming from anger, fear, stress. Yeah. Trusting more trusting more in life and ourselves. Creating from Peace. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's It's a dance, isn't it? Yeah. And as we've identified in the last hour and something whether it's we're not necessarily always at peace, but I think it's the it's having the ability to and the tools as we've discussed, to recenter, to bring yourself back to that place and say, oh, okay, hang on a minute.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:41
I was just really human for a moment there. What I did last night as you stepped away, because you stepped in and calmly said, Right, okay, calm down, you come down, you come down, you're obviously in shock. He starts shouting her, she says, Look, no, just to be clear, you are you were riding your bike like a dick.
Julia Malcolmson 1:11:02
It was very calm, like for them on down, calm down.
Martin O'Toole 1:11:07
We did nearly kill you, and it would have been your fault. But I understand that you're in shock. And while she's having this car, and word of mouth, just stepped away and just took a breath, you know, like a real conscious breath. And there was that moment, where I was suddenly back in control. It's Eckhart Tolle, who says, One conscious breath is a meditation. And we talked about meditation a lot on this show, actually, it's a wonderful reminder, a literal reminder of how just taking that one deep breath can completely and utterly reframe you, where you are the scenario and what you are about to do.
Julia Malcolmson 1:11:50
Give you the power of choice.
Martin O'Toole 1:11:51
Again, yeah, totally, but through using a tool. So what advice do you have for, on the one hand, someone who has been told they have a real bad illness. And on the other hand, someone who hasn't been told that and as a result, perhaps isn't living as though they might die tomorrow.
Tatiana Gottschalk 1:12:29
Think it's the same for both. It's to be, it's to really be truthful to yourself. Because everything in life starts with being honest. With Yourself truly, truly, truly honest. And, okay, one more thing, for the people who get a diagnosis. It can be a success story. It doesn't have to be waking up in the morning, being depressed, being frustrated and be suffering the whole day all the time. Doesn't have to be that. But it is a choice, making the choice because that is something somebody told me. At the very beginning, somebody told me, Hey, but you don't have to suffer. It's just so simple. That there was like, Oh, I don't have to. I don't, why didn't somebody tell me? How bad really I understood what she meant, you know? Because, yeah, although it's super hard, it is super hard. I don't have to suffer. If I suffer. If I choose to suffer, I will just say and continue being the victim. But I can have beautiful times and you know, chemotherapy is not every day. And I had, I would say, as normally I had 80% Really beautiful times and 20% were very difficult. And that is not that is life. No matter if you have chemo or you know, like, it doesn't matter. And if I think when we make ourselves victim, or we want we suffer, it's also because there is a desire that wants to be fulfilled the intention. So look for the intention. Look for the intention, what do you get out of it, and then give it to you. Or ask people to give it to you, if you want more attention. If you want more love, find it. If you feel lost, and you cannot find it, start giving it to others, it will come back to you. But don't stop and feel like you have to suffer beat it because everything every situation in life can be changed. Every group actually believe that by now. I went through so many difficulties. 30 years of my life. It's possible. It's possible. Don't get stuck. Look at other people that are happy and follow along.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:51
That's great advice. And I think it's a it's the thing we ought to constantly remind people is that nothing will ever stay the same. You To the everything will change and things can get better. And it's about degrees of getting better, isn't it? And it's about your perception of what better is. Yeah, it's about acceptance. I agree. Yeah. Thanks, Tatiana.
Julia Malcolmson 1:15:17
Thank you so much.
Tatiana Gottschalk 1:15:18
Thank you guys for having me. And for this beautiful conversation. Very enlightening, inspiring,
Martin O'Toole 1:15:24
very much enjoyed hearing your stories. And hopefully our audience will see it for what it is, and some great utilities for our audience as well. Yeah. And we'd like to we'd like to do that. Right into the melting pot, Victor. No, I'm I think your story is a truly inspirational one. So thanks for coming on the show and talking about it.
Tatiana Gottschalk 1:15:43
Thank you.
Julia Malcolmson 1:15:44
Thank you love
