SUMMARY KEYWORDS
book, utilities, realise, point, read, write, happy, talk, called, moment, love, die, idea, podcast, words, chapter, people, learned, happiness, bit
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Julia Malcolmson
Julia Malcolmson 02:11
Okay, all right. Well, so we are turning the tables a little bit today. And I am going to be interviewing our podcast host, Martin O'Toole. So Martin, this is a little unusual. I'm a little nervous. I don't normally lead the interviews. But I felt like it Sorry
Martin O'Toole 02:35
to interrupt can I just say but it'd be nice for you to actually get a word in edgewise on the podcast, it would be
Julia Malcolmson 02:39
really nice. I do actually have a voice gets a little drowned out sometimes
Martin O'Toole 02:46
quite often a lot, unfortunately.
Julia Malcolmson 02:48
But you're working on that, aren't you allowing yourself to hold the space for Mike the feminine to come through? It's it's a lesson, isn't it? So you know, we're working on it. We're always learning. So I felt like it was really important that I interview Martin today, because Martin has finally finished his book, I'm actually gonna hold it up because it's here. Yay. So I would like to just take a moment to really, really celebrate you. Because this is a really big deal. You know, and I think we take for granted when we read a book, how much work goes into writing a book. So I think I would especially really like to congratulate you and celebrate you for this achievement. And we can actually now call you an author.
Martin O'Toole 03:45
Yeah. Suppose we can, how does that feel? It all feels very surreal. You know, we talk about reinvention all the time when there's podcasts. That's really what this what the podcast is, is a began as a documentation if you like of my my reinvention. And now having got to another milestone in reinvention where I've got a book and I'm now an author. It's It's beautiful. It's something to something I feel very grateful for. I feel very grateful for it. But I also feel quite terrified. Actually, I feel very vulnerable right now.
Julia Malcolmson 04:27
Why do you feel vulnerable? Because the
Martin O'Toole 04:31
book is a very personal account. Well, it involves it includes very personal accounts and that's not the vulnerability the vulnerability is I think the the self doubt that creeps in as a writer, they call it what do they call it impostor syndrome. And, as you know, being my partner and and witnessing me through this whole process, it's been a roller coaster. wasn't it?
Julia Malcolmson 05:00
Yeah, it has in the south, the self doubt has creeped in a lot. Which has been interesting to see. Because you're, you are a very confident man. And you're a very talented writer. That's very kind of true. And that's, you know, you've been writing for a large period of your life. And I think it's time for you to kind of, I believe, step back. You've put the book out there, you need to let go now, which is a really big lesson. I know, that's a huge lesson. It's a challenge and try and I think, like root down in that confidence that you have really written something from your heart. And from your truth, and that's all you can do.
Martin O'Toole 05:46
Yeah, yeah. And as we were saying earlier on to the guys, we were talking to in the coffee shop, this is this is the next challenge. No, okay. You know, being with this baby for whatever, a year and a half and intensely over the last few months as you as you know, and those around me now I've been I've been buried in in making this book for the last few months, and working stupid hours as well. But yeah, now it's time to let it go. It's it's been printed. It's been turned into an EPUB. So you can you can get the Kindle version. And this been turned into an audible version, or an audiobook version, which you'll be able to get on all major platforms,
Julia Malcolmson 06:26
which by the way, I feature on just a point that
Martin O'Toole 06:29
she does. Yeah, I mean, well, I'm I won't spoil it, cuz I've already talked about this on a couple of other podcasts. But the book also offers a few mindful moments. Yeah, we'll go into that. Yeah. Jules has done the voiceover on that. So. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? The challenge now is let go, Martin, you know, it's not yours anymore. And that's the fundamental point. It's no longer my book is yours.
Julia Malcolmson 06:57
Yeah. Which is beautiful. And now you can watch and see how that it grows, how it changes how it affects other people. And then maybe one day in the future, you might amend it, but for now, yeah. It's perfect as it is,
Martin O'Toole 07:11
once very kind of you to say, certainly, I am happy with it. I'm really happy with it. It's, it's wound up becoming this, I think, actually really helpful piece of literature, which is the point, right? I always said, when I started writing this book, if it helps one person, it was worth doing quite clearly, as a very worthy, noble thing to say. Evidently, I'd be very happy if if it helped a million people, because they likely will have bought it. But you know, we're just gonna say, Oh, I suppose.
Julia Malcolmson 07:44
And just for a minute, I want to go off topic. I want to, because you I'm gonna you talk about this in the book, and you've talked about this on the podcast, you are a man who has lived many, many lives. But I want to go right back to Martin as a child. What did you want to be when you grew up?
Martin O'Toole 08:05
Do you know what I actually don't really remember. I, my childhood was, was a bit tricky. And I think there was a lot of dancing in my childhood. There's a lot of, there's a lot of trauma and a lot of sadness. And there was a lot of work of me, the smaller version of me worrying about my parents, especially my mom, you know, I think I was I was doing my best to try and you know, look after her and of course, look after my little brother as well. He's not little anymore, obviously. So I'm not convinced I ever had a really clear idea. I was an artist. So I was doing a lot of drawing and then in school I got into sculpting, but I was very bad at school. Very, you know, it wasn't
Julia Malcolmson 08:58
bad as in behaviour or bad as in
09:01
distracted angry then what?
Julia Malcolmson 09:04
I find that a funny term because I don't really believe there's such thing as good and bad. And especially when you look at children and then how they are at school.
Martin O'Toole 09:14
Well put it another way. I was a highly dysfunctional child with an awful lot of problems and the system in which I was being quote unquote educated was not set up to look after people like me, which is sad. Yeah, absolutely. Especially since they actually knew of our problems we were on a we were on a list my brother and I apparently all the kids with with evident familial problems are on our list, but all that means is actually you just get you get away with more. Not, you know, it's not like teachers go right. Okay, how am I going to deal with this? How much should I check in with this kid? On the before class? How you feeling today? You know what happened last night? Don't get me wrong. I'm not dissing teachers. And when you got a class full of 440 Mad little minds, I'm sure Is, is a hell of a job to deal with. But, you know, I didn't have that support. So with that lack of support, I didn't do well at school. And when I say I didn't do well, I mean, I didn't get the grades.
Julia Malcolmson 10:09
Okay, but then let's fast forward to now. So for somebody who struggled at school, looked at where you are now. And so the fact that you've just written this book, you know, and I know a lot of people always comment on your, your vocabulary, your love of grammar, you know, so that is an incredible skill to have developed. You know, and I know from, from conversations we've had a lot of that is because of your mom. It
Martin O'Toole 10:39
is. Yeah, and my dad, they my mom was obviously a teacher. So my mom and dad went on and did open university courses. My dad was a travelling salesman, but he still wanted to better himself, even though they were both from working class backgrounds. So and actually that betterman Even though it didn't necessarily affect their careers, it certainly affected the the love of English, you know, my dad is a voracious reader still is now even though he's got failing eyesight, I think he just listens to audiobooks and reads Kindles with, you know, the zoom on. I understand these hanging out for the audiobook version of how to die happy. So yeah, I've got I think, perhaps is, you know, when you're talking openly about traumatic childhoods, especially when you're doing it in the context of the way I'm trying to do this. And that is to, to talk to other people who have had the same sort of thing and say, Hey, you're, you're normal. You know, yeah, you might be abnormal. But actually, you're not alone, I think is the fundamental point. We've a lot of us have had these sort of backgrounds. But then when we're telling these stories, personally speaking, you focus on a lot of the sort of so called negative. Yeah, you're right. Absolutely. Absolutely. My mom taught me a love for English. So did my dad, they would be sitting around talking. And I would say, what does that word mean? And they would say, you know, where the dictionary is in the dictionary was on a low shelf for as James and I, so we would have to and this was pre internet, everybody. Of course, there was no Google on every computer. So they certainly weren't mobile phone. So we had to go and look at the dictionary. So yeah, I love that. I do i It's, it's an it's a different way of learning. Because it's applied, isn't it? Yeah. You know, and
Julia Malcolmson 12:28
there are so many words out there to learn. Like even I find sometimes my vocabulary has become so basic over the years, and I think a lot of that is down to texting and social media. And you know how much I dislike abbreviations and kind of drives me insane. But even from being with you, you know, I'm always like, Oh, hang on a sec, what was that word? And I love that. And I get to look it up. And
Martin O'Toole 12:54
yeah, I hope the readers of this book can get on board with that, because actually, I do a bit of vocabulary flexing in this book, not through any other reason than that the right words to use, you know,
Julia Malcolmson 13:12
maybe we should have done a glossary.
Martin O'Toole 13:14
I didn't think about it. already quite a lot of pages. Maybe I'll do one on their website at some point.
Julia Malcolmson 13:20
Okay, so I was gonna, I want to ask you why, what made you decide to write a book? It's good question. Probably. Then it also on to that, like, why this book?
Martin O'Toole 13:34
Well, this was to write a book was my next, my next natural transition, as a writer, as you know, and a lot of the listeners know, my career was an admin, as as well as an admin. And I've been in the advertising industry for over 25 years, and not always a writer, either. I've had many roles in, in agencies, and been successful. But I was always very unhappy. You know, I was in the in the pursuit of success and happiness looking, as Rumi would say, in the branches instead of the roots, you know, for this stuff. So, but I discovered through my career in advertising that I had, certainly in the latter years that I absolutely really loved writing and I was a professional communicator. That was my job, you know, when you're in advertising and you are dealing with clients, but also from a strategic perspective, understanding customers trying to get yourself really into the, into the shoes of these people, you, you have to learn how to communicate. And with having had all the realisations that I had, I realised that she was a relatively was a very thankless task. And I felt wholly unfulfilled, which is why a few years ago then I started to flex my muscles by writing these blogs, these mental health blogs, start to tell my story and in a micro Way, which was really well received, you know, as and as you know, I've had 10s of 1000s of people read my blogs on the likes of elephant journal, and then reach out and say, Wow, thanks. That's a really honest, authentic and quite visceral way of talking about yourself and your human experience. Thank you. And that made me think, oh, yeah, okay. Actually, people do need this. Not saying people need to hear my voice in particular. But I think a lot of people are looking for answers. And somehow my words resonated. So that's why I started to write the book, why this book, I had this idea that I wanted to write an A biography, and autobiography, a biography. Whatever. I had this idea that I wanted to write my story. But then having begun it realise that didn't want to write my story, I think, I think it's, I'm not suggesting for a moment that it's a good or a bad thing to do for anyone. But it's quite a common thing to do when when you've had this, this, whatever we want to call it awakening, to experience a life within a life to to, to achieve some some additional level of enlightenment, you want to document that. But But I realised that that wasn't what I wanted to do with how to die happy. So how to die happy has become, yeah, there's a there's sort of my story in because I wanted to make the lessons relatable. But actually, what I wanted to do with how to die happy was to say, Hey, I spent the last few years intensively learning about forgiveness on learning. You know, self love, Shadow Work, connection, you name it, I've, I've discovered a lot. And actually, what would happen if I, if I threw all of this into a book to make it easier for anybody else who wanted to do this journey. And you the listeners may or may not recall, but when I came to Bali, I spent a year doing nothing. But as the Daoists would say, it was a good good kind of nothing inaction, action through inaction. So as a result of that, I got to do some seriously intensive work, which not all, not a lot of us can do, when you don't have the time, or the energy or the financial means. So that's a long answer to your short question. But that's really what started how to die happy.
Julia Malcolmson 17:48
And I love that about the book, because you've actually collated so much from different sources. And then you've combined that with your personal story. You've combined it with utilities, there's breathwork. In there, there's meditations, there's prayers, and it's quite an unusual combination. But like, I find for having read it, and I have read this book about three times, I've been very, it really works
18:17
as in the flow
Julia Malcolmson 18:18
of the flow and to have those breaks to meditate or to have those breaks to have a breather. Just because otherwise, I think there's if there's no practical utility, what are you getting from the book as you go through it? Whereas if it's break breaks up into these utilities into these moments of pauses, then it enables you to digest what you've read and to practice something new.
Martin O'Toole 18:41
Yeah, that's, I'm glad you I'm glad you you picked up on that, that the whole point of this was not that it wound up being some rambling, self congratulatory tale of woe and success. On behalf of someone who's changed their life for the better. It's just a bit wonky, isn't it? And let's face it, what I want you to do is say, look, I used to be this and what did I used to be quick reminder, very, very unhappy, high functioning alcoholic, an addict, at one point, the lowest point with a loaded shotgun to my face. Now on this, you know, like, take a moment, just be grateful again for for this incredible life I now have and incidentally, I'm not I'm not financially wealthy. You know, we don't live in a we don't live in a 10 bedroom. You know, mentioned doing on the clifftops, that's not the point. The point is that I've discovered true everlasting happiness, having had you know, a different a different life altogether. And I wanted to, to intermingle that with practical utilities for people to actually do this work. And that's where the anatomy of happy came from us where I stumbled upon this idea which I must say was inspired, I was inspired very much the idea of the amount of the anatomy of happy the words by Alan Watts, who, who talked of the anatomy of happiness at one point.
Julia Malcolmson 20:14
I like that you touched on that because actually, that was one of my questions for later is what is the anatomy of happy? And just so you know, there's some very cute diagrams in the book.
Martin O'Toole 20:24
Well, I call them diagrams, Lee Holden, the wonderful international Qigong master and, and TV personality who wrote the foreword for this book would you believe takes them takes the piss out of me for saying diagrams? He calls them illustrations, or pictures? No, he says, he said, um, there are pictures, Martin calls them diagrams. What's the anatomy of happy will? Ultimately, after after I'd gone through this whole process, and x and taken on board all these modalities? I thought, I'm gonna minute if I've gone from being that guy to this guy. Can I actually outline that process? And the reality actually was, yeah, I actually can. So the anatomy of happy is that process, it's self realisation, on learning, self love, forgiveness, connection, five really easy words. But obviously, not an easy journey. So what I've done in the book, I take the readers actually through that process without overtly spelling it out. So you go through this book, you're reading my stories, you're reading about death, you're reading about our relationship with death youth, you're reading about some of the things we are doing the distractor in materialistic consumerist world in which we're all born and, and some of us become very quickly and trapped, making all these observations essentially, invite people to go through that process. And then ultimately, at the top of that hill, because the the diagram that I created for that is a beautifully illustrated by Josh Kimball, by the way, who's a good friend in London. When you get to the top of that spiral hill of learning, you, you have having attained happiness, you have the opportunity then to maintain it, utilising what I you know, cheekily called the Zen Ven, which is a beautiful, daily practice, and whatever you choose, the daily practice to be is up to you, right. But it's achieving this balance between awareness, presence, acceptance and gratitude. And what I'm saying is, what I realise is, if you put though if you keep those four pillars, you know, like in mind, in everyday living, you will be happy. You know, like, but I had a ship fit. When did I have a ship fit? I you've had several Yeah, well, exactly. So lately, I've been having shifts. But what have I done immediately, I've said to you. So sorry about that. I've just realised that I'm losing my patience at the moment with a couple of people and a couple of situations, not with you, I hasten to add. But I'm observing that whilst they're awareness, first step, stepping back in presence, actually, I need to become present again, because then I know I'm not going to have these shifts, why have I been having shifts because I've been working all day until two three in the morning, for the last few weeks, flat out, no days off, to get this book ready to do that, all the promotion and all the stuff that it takes,
Julia Malcolmson 23:44
that's a good thing to acknowledge, because we can talk about all these practical utilities and we all occasionally drop them. Absolutely. So our practice isn't there 100% of the time, but having that awareness allows us to remember hang on a sec, I need to bring my practice back in and I need to come back to a state of balance because otherwise they'll shift fits get worse
Martin O'Toole 24:07
Absolutely. And if you're not aware of them then you the monkey as I affectionately call them my and your egos in the book monkey has quite a lot of features the monkey takes over again monkeys got their hands on the wheel and then you're just back into that you know fight or flight mode where you just got to do got to do you know people and obviously somebody else's Earth rover bumps into yours or you bump into their Earth rover then there's another ship fit so that's where this Acceptance comes into into play as well. I must accept that sometimes I'm not going to be aware and present as long as I am very quickly recapping on it and going Ah, man, I was just a bit of a dick then. So can we just stop for a moment while I acknowledge that while I own my bullshit and I express that to whomever you in, in the context of the conversation last night, but actually the the aggression was directed towards somebody else just you were present. And they weren't even here. So, but that's the work. Yeah, you know, that's the that's the point of it. And actually, that's, that's everlasting happiness. And if I can explain that a little bit more, this book, primarily, if you cut this, slice this thing down the middle, the the, the arterial nature of this book is about our relationship with permanence and impermanence, with change, with understanding, and I don't just mean understanding the definition dictionary definition of the word impermanence. I mean, intrinsically knowing what impermanence is, and what is impermanent. And as I make it very clear in the book, and I've probably been doing that for a long time now anyway, talking to people on this podcast, everything is subject to impermanence. And if we can get our heads around that, and then we can get our heads around the fact that happiness is therefore also subject to the same universal law, then by that rationale, you're not always going to be happy, you're always going to be imbalance. But here's the beautiful paradox in knowing that you can still be happy.
Julia Malcolmson 26:18
Yeah, very nicely. But
Martin O'Toole 26:21
it did a better job in the book, I think. But, but that's kind of the fundamental point of this. I am not a big fan of hacks. Yeah.
Julia Malcolmson 26:32
There's a lot of them right now. Well, every time
Martin O'Toole 26:34
we look around, there's another hack for it. You know, you've got hacks for hacks now, haven't you? Remember, on the podcast, we were talking about hacks one day, and I said, even come across a YouTube video that offered hacks for your karma? How To Hack your karma? I mean, it's just, you know, anyway, look, I'm not dissing people who are producing any of this content. Because there are short term fixes, I get that. But what I'm very clear to say, at the beginning of this book is there is no hack for happiness. You can have short term dopamine fixes crush again, you can stop and do a breathwork session, you can have a five minute meditation, great, you know, in that moment, you are present. But if you're not prepared to do the real work to go through the process of the anatomy of how that integrate it unequivocally integrated at the top of the hill, then you're not going to have long lasting, sustainable happiness. And as this book does have to therefore, dive into all sorts of territories. It does, he actually begins talking about death. It talks about certainly in the West, our relationship with death. Why we fear it?
Julia Malcolmson 27:42
Yeah. Let's get into that a little bit more in a minute talking about death. Okay, because, well, obviously, our podcast is about how to die happy the book is how to die happy so death for us is a big subject. So we'll get onto that.
27:54
I love the fact that you're like, you're the boss of this.
Julia Malcolmson 27:56
I know I feeling like I need to get a bit boss here. Actually. I wanted to read the synopsis for the book just briefly, okay, okay. How can you achieve long lasting happiness, or transform your relationship with grief? I think grief then
Martin O'Toole 28:17
we can have you start again. Go?
Julia Malcolmson 28:20
How can you achieve long lasting happiness, or transform your relationship with grief, death and dying? Having explored the deepest trenches of depression and contrasting heights of delight? Martin O'Toole, a man on the mend has discovered the anatomy of happy a process anyone can follow to find true happiness. Cherry Picking Eastern philosophies like Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism, introducing mindfulness psychological practices and tales of the miraculous healing powers of Ayahuasca. How to die happy distils the secrets of living and dying while part curated wisdom, part handbook, part memoir. This inspirational text offers a blend of ancient lessons, a real life stories of suffering and a host of practical utilities to enjoy a vibrant and contented life. I mean, sounds good, doesn't that sounds really good.
29:17
Sounds like the sort of book I'd like to read.
Julia Malcolmson 29:19
How now as an ad man, as your old profession. Can you sell that to me in five words? Tough one, Pfeiffer.
29:33
Yeah, I mean five
Martin O'Toole 29:42
G's so I've got to sum up my whole book in five words, imagine
Julia Malcolmson 29:45
you're producing another. Like, I don't know what you call it a tagline. Something that's going to sell that to me five words.
Martin O'Toole 29:54
Learn to love in a world of separation. First Aid.
Julia Malcolmson 30:01
Okay, grab me
30:03
okay
Martin O'Toole 30:09
stories, practical utilities for living.
Julia Malcolmson 30:17
Okay. Already the wisdom stories and utilities for the art of living. So to be honest, you've already done it. Well, I
Martin O'Toole 30:25
mean, you would expect to do it. I've done it. I've done it. I've done it elsewhere, I'd imagine on the website just being caught on the on the hoof like that. But what is it? I mean, you know, it's a, it's exactly that it's a it's a collection of other people's ideas, and my ideas and my interpretation of those ideas and my experience. And then a shitload of practical utilities. I, you know, the other thing probably to point out is, I'm not a PhD, I'm not a guru. I'm not a life coach. But I am an expert, I think in suffering. Albeit co created suffering, incidentally, we can talk about suffering until Christmas 2028, if you like, in the end, the idea that suffering is, is very much something that we're usually co responsible for. But I'm also now an expert in how not to suffer. So that's, that's where this came from, you know, because it's through analysing my own suffering. That's how I that's how I stumbled across Buddhism. And I'm not a Buddhist, by the way, everybody. I'm an optimist, I suppose. But I'm not even next. I don't really like pigeon holes. But a nominalist believes that No, religion is the truth, but there is truth in all religions. So what I've ended up doing is as that synopsis says cherry picking, I came across Buddhism came across the utilities like, you know, the three marks of existence of the Four Noble Truths or the Noble Eightfold Path. impermanence and Nietzsche, dukkha, suffering, and Natta, no self, and all of these things made a lot of sense to me. And they made a lot of sense in, in the context of everyday living. And then I was like, Well, I'm gonna me how come everybody doesn't know about this stuff then. And then I came across Taoism and the wu wei, you know, the idea of inaction and surrender. And this, the power of, of nothingness. And lots of other incredible teachings from the wu wei from Lao Tzu and the Dara de Ching. And again, I thought, Why didn't everybody know about this? Where we talked about this in school? Yeah, you know, and then Confucianism, obviously, Confucianism and Taoism got a sort of a brother sister relationship. So this is the less soft version, I suppose. But they share a lot of philosophies. And, and then I remember coming across Confucius as I was growing up, but I remember, I don't know when it was televisual, or if it was in cartoons, or whatever. But actually, more often not people were mocking Confucianism, or Confucius say these things actually racist things which would deal with it, you know, that sort of mocking this Chinese sage stereotype. So what I've tried to do with with all of this is say, hey, look, I'm just suggesting that we might all want to take another look at this stuff. Because unlike western religions, and I'm not dissing Western religions, you know, you stick to whatever makes you happy, as long as it does intrinsically make you happy. And you don't actually feel with some introspection that you are actually in a system of control. These Eastern philosophies have a lot more in common than psychology than anything else that I've come across. And I was a broken person who put himself on his on a healing journey. And I've used these things practically to make me better.
Julia Malcolmson 34:05
Well, they are, aren't they? They're practical guides, absolutely. For Living. If we're living what you say, a mindful, happy life so that you can die. Well, I mean, it's that all these teachings have been out there. And they're there for us when we want want them. Yeah, but it's really nice to have someone like yourself, put them together in a book to make them accessible.
Martin O'Toole 34:26
Yeah, I hope I hope that's the way it's perceived. And of course, this is why we have to begin the this book talking about death because it's so taboo. Yeah, and
Julia Malcolmson 34:35
that's, I mean, obviously, you know, the podcast how to die happy. We talk about death a lot, because it's something that people don't talk about. And I know like you and I, we jokingly talk about it sometimes and you go on and on about when you die and you know, and sometimes I'm like how can you stop talking about it? But you know, I didn't really mean it and I'm happy for us to talk about it is an important subject and in a lot of cultures, people do you prepare for death? And I would really love it if you know if this is one thing that comes out of this book is people start going, hang on a second, why are we not talking about this? Why am I not chatting to my family about what happens when I die? Or how I would like to spend the last? If I know that I'm dying, how I'd like to spend the last week of my life, you know, they're really important points. So I'm glad that you're bringing that to the forefront.
Martin O'Toole 35:27
Yeah, thanks. And I think the the other thing that I'm trying to say is, you know, look at the way for example, the Buddhists do this. They live every day, in the present moment. There are many reasons why they do that. You know, we've got long enough to talk about it all. But ultimately, setting aside the idea that time is in is an illusory con strokes. The point is that, how do we apply living in the present moment to death? Well, I may well die in the next five minutes, you may well die in the next five minutes. So how do I want our interactions to be? And that's the that's actually one of the lessons one of the lessons is, and this is obviously when I go off on my bike to the shops, and I say, Give us a kiss, I might die on the on the way to the shops, you know, and of course, you sort of roll your eyes, but you know what I'm talking about, but a lot of other people in the West would say, Oh, don't be so morbid. Your fascination with death is morbid. That's the definition of the word fascination, but it's a non dictionary definition is an unhealthy fascination. My question would be who defines what's healthy and unhealthy? I would actually counter that and say, by setting aside any discussions or consideration about death, we are actually being very unhealthy. And we set ourselves up for regrets when equivocally. And of course, the book invites readers to do that early early days. And you obviously you guys listen to the podcast, you will know that we say in the trailer, if you had five minutes left to live, what would be on your list of regrets? And that's a it's it's in the early pages, isn't it? Well,
Julia Malcolmson 37:03
you know, Martin has some sections in the book where you can actually there's some blank pages and he asks you to think about a subject and then there's some space to make notes. One of those is what would be your, your deathbed regrets if you had five minutes left. I was going to touch on this later. But we can do it now actually, because there's another bit that I love. And it's it's the opportunity to write your own eulogy. And I just think that's brilliant. Because, I mean, I've been to a fair few funerals, some of them have been heartbreaking, of course. But the thing for me that I always find the hardest is when eulogy is not kind of written with any love, or it's not a genuine eulogy. So you give people the opportunity to write their own. How would you feel about quickly writing your eulogy on the podcast?
Martin O'Toole 37:52
Yeah, well, I don't think that's fair. That's that's that's shooting from the hip. Whereas I'm inviting the readers to, to take some time. I imagine you've thought about it. I haven't actually, I haven't had to say this. But there is a there's a twist in the book, because I'm I actually am not inviting readers to write their own eulogy from their own perspective. So what I actually ask you then to do is to consider what what how would your eulogy be? If it was written from the perspective of your those close to you? Yeah, for the mall, if they could take the gloves off. And it's not some fluffy, bullshit eulogy that
Julia Malcolmson 38:29
I like what it's called, it's the brutally honest eulogy they'll deliver at my funeral.
Martin O'Toole 38:34
That's what I'm talking about. So, you know, I don't know what would people say what people say, in my brutally honest eulogy. You know, he was a passionate, passionate man. He gave, he took. He wasn't always focused. He, you might say, if I died in the next five minutes, he spent far too much time working on that goddamn book. And not enough time giving me cuddles.
Julia Malcolmson 39:08
But here's the thing, I would probably say that he died, having done what he loved, and having really lived life to the fullest.
Martin O'Toole 39:18
Right. Great. Yeah. So I mean, and this is really the fundamental point, you know, just getting getting out of the meta of it for a moment. The point is, if you can do it, right, that eulogy, honestly, if all of the readers of this book can relate to can do that, honestly. And then you start to find some stuff you don't like, for example, I don't know your husband, you feel sure your husband would have said you work too hard. You put all of your time and effort into this company, which was, let's face it, just a company. You know, I'm not. I'm not dissing entrepreneurialism, or solopreneurs and whatever, but ultimately, it's just the fucking company. It's an illusion. It really Yes. It employs people. Yes, it might provide some stuff for some people, but it's is that really why are we here? Is that why we were on the planet? It's up to you to question and answer that I know my question answer. Because I've started a lot of companies. And I realised, actually, that wasn't what I was here for. So if you can get to the end of doing that eulogy, and find some real brutal stuff, some truths, then that's magic, isn't it?
Julia Malcolmson 40:25
You've got some time to make the changes. That's the whole fine.
Martin O'Toole 40:29
You know, actually, so interesting. You pick the ugi, pick the deathbed regrets, they're sort of bookends and I think chapter two and chapter 51. So it's the second chapter in the penultimate chapter. That's quite good. That was quite good planning wasn't it is almost like it was done by design. But the whole point is to is to then give you guys should you choose to read this book and opportunity to go, wow, hang on a minute, just done some work there. But you've done some, some brutally honest auditing.
Julia Malcolmson 41:00
And to be honest, I haven't actually done that. Well, I actually, you know, do it the fourth time, I should read the book, but with the actual reading it for myself, rather than, you know, not and I don't mean that in a bad way, I've read it for you, to help you with the book. But now it's time for me to really read it and, and do those exercises for myself. So I'll let you know when I've done it, we can compare unities.
Martin O'Toole 41:23
Please do. And there are, there are, as Jill said, there are more sections like that in the book. It's not it's not all about death and regrets. It's about it's almost also an invitation to evaluate your relationships with people, which is beautiful. Well, it's part of the practical utility side of things, I realised that if I was really going to talk about happiness, in a meaningful way, then I had to talk about all the things that make us unhappy, that we don't necessarily realise, make us unhappy. So there are some, you know, some fairly forthright things to consider in this book about your relationship with family and friends and work colleagues and debt. Your work, how much time you spend with your work stuff, your possessions, your pursuit of possessions, status. All of these things actually are all external. So there's a there's a gauntlet been thrown down with this book as well. Excuse me. And I think at some point, I say, we're not prepared to do this work, put the fucking thing down. Maybe I'm not liberal,
Julia Malcolmson 42:36
I know that maybe it's not your time. Maybe you're not ready to do it just yet. You know, we all come to these things when we're ready to do them.
Martin O'Toole 42:43
Absolutely. And, you know, we've had this conversation several times, many, many times. It's not for me to interrupt anybody else's journey for learning. However, there's a caveat to throw in there. If we put these things off. What happens if we get hit by a bus tomorrow? Okay, yeah, exactly. So there are loads of things we can pull off, like,
Julia Malcolmson 43:09
writing your will,
Martin O'Toole 43:12
which I haven't done yet. get around to doing that now. But I would argue that this is not one of them.
Julia Malcolmson 43:21
Isn't in his book, but also dealing with the subjects. And
Martin O'Toole 43:24
I mean, understanding Yes. And no, you know, it's my sincere hope that people read this book, it's my sincere hope that this is going to give people a really fresh perspective on what happiness is and is not what happiness is, and is about.
Julia Malcolmson 43:42
Yeah, one thing I'd love to talk about, if you don't want me interrupting you, is your writing style. Yes. Because I think you've got a really refreshing way of writing. And you kind of this book has got some really gritty truth in it. It's got facts in it. It's got philosophies from incredible minds. And there's obviously the practical utilities, but it's also got real vulnerability, you know, and you manage to marry all of that together in a really flowing way. And you bring in humour, and I actually think the humour that you bring into the way you write is really important, especially for this topic. Yeah. You know, and like, even down to I mean, let me have a think like your chapter titles. I mean, some of the chapter titles, I think, a genius, but they dive straight in, you know, everyone you know, is going to die. I mean, it's pretty brutal, it's pretty honest, but it's, it's there. It's a truth. And, you know, like there's, you've got a lot of chapters, so I'm not gonna go through those, but I wanted to read a section of the book that is kind of incredibly vulnerable. It's a really, for me, it was quite a tear jerking moment of the book, but then I actually I laugh out loud But at the same time, so you managed to bring all of those together and a really was a really well written way. And
Martin O'Toole 45:11
I am very, by the way, everybody, I'll just, I mean, Jules is, you know, we don't have that kind of relationship where we're sycophantic with one another is there is out there is forthright honesty. So, you know, we give that sort of feedback. So this is this is high praise indeed. Thank you,
Julia Malcolmson 45:27
Jules. So I'm going to read this. That's all right. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 45:30
Do you want to say what chapter
Julia Malcolmson 45:31
it's so this is the chapter everyone you know, is going to die. And part one so there's actually two parts to this chapter says, I'd love it if when you know is going to die. Well, yeah, that's true. And so are you.
45:44
ready? I'm ready.
Julia Malcolmson 45:46
With no detectable life force, her frail body rested peacefully in the black leather Lazy Boy chair. I suppose her nothingness was the oddest aspect of the scene. I tentatively approached, and through tears and trembling lips mumbled on mum. I kissed her cold forehead. And I as I observed her through streaming eyes, I noticed she died with a packet of cigarettes in her hand. A chocolate escapes. I don't know what made me do it. Shame, perhaps, but I gently took her hand and pried the carton from her grip. The doctor had left details for the town Undertaker, a kind and gentle man. So I called and made arrangements. By the time my older brother arrived, Dad was showered and dressed a shadow of his former self. There were tears and hugs aplenty, during that moment of quiet. Then we put the kettle on and rolled a joint the size of a whiteboard marker pen. We spent around three hours in the room with her telling stories of her idiosyncrasies and adventures, chugging coffee, smoking weed and remembering whatever good times came to mind. She was pretty quiet, obviously. But we laughed a lot. It was nice. Yes, so for me even reading that I could feel myself welling up with tears. But then there's this just the way you've then added in that little chuckle it it really works. And it it lightens it without cheapening it, and
Martin O'Toole 47:30
it's pretty cute. Yes, that's a good observation is probably the absence of doubt. That's the story of my mom's death. Yeah. So, yeah, but that's, I suppose, as much as that's my writing style. It's also it's also kind of the style of my family. Now we have this kind of, I don't know if it's, there's the Irishness who knows maybe, I don't know. But there's a there's a, there's a nice sarcasm, she was brutally sarcastic with my mom, and fiercely witty. I'd like to think I didn't dedicate this book to her because I actually dedicated it to you, but. But she was the driving force. Her death was the driving force behind this book. Her alcoholism was the driving force behind my trauma and alcoholism. And her death was the driving force for my healing. So I actually think I say this in the book, you know, sometimes when somebody dies is the best thing that can happen.
Julia Malcolmson 48:28
But it also highlights in there, that moment of celebrating and remembering. And I think sometimes we forget to do that when someone dies, and we focus on the fact that they've gone. But actually, when you get that chance to sit and talk and remember. It's a really lovely moment.
Martin O'Toole 48:46
Sorry, I'm choking on my something. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you glad you felt that when you read it. We chose not to all sit around crying our eyes out. We well read, we drank coffee, we smoked weed we we actually took the piss out of her. And I suppose I was a little bit unfair because she was dead. So she couldn't do anything about it in and it's a surreal thing. I don't know if anybody listening has been in this. This kind of scenario, but we were sitting in the room with my dead mother for three hours. And she she died overnight. So she was she was pretty green. By that time. She was green when I first came across a bit. Yeah, that was that was the beginning of an incredible process of grieving and, you know, if you're interested in grieving, incidentally, check out anything written by Elisabeth Kubler Ross. I think she wrote the book, the five stages of grieving with another guy who actually whose name I can't remember and I wish I could he wrote the the sixth stage of grief, which is actually in line with what we're talking about here. Taking this idea Year of how we treat death with this extreme reverence to the point of, you know, solemn misery, actually to consider in celebration, you know which point we've missed the bit where we're supposed to be celebrating their lives. I had a helmet, I had a micro exchange with somebody on a social media thread about or maybe it was a blog thread about this not too long ago, who would much rather exist as a victim, having lost someone in their family, rather than celebrate the life of this person. And that this is not to do down with the grieving process.
Julia Malcolmson 50:46
It's important and as
Martin O'Toole 50:48
I say that in the book, but ultimately, we can. Grief is an emotion. Well, it's an it's a hotchpotch of emotions. So we have the power to control those emotions. We just don't. We've just got to the point, in this day and age where we don't think we do.
Julia Malcolmson 51:05
What's the quote about grief? It's
Martin O'Toole 51:08
Jamie Anderson. He says, grief is just love with nowhere to go. Yeah, quote him in the book. It's a beautiful quote, there's a big, there's a larger section that I quote, but it's an asset, right? And actually, that plays to this book that plays the whole idea of how to die happy grief is just love with nowhere to go. But if we didn't have any regrets around our relationship with these people, which are realised is a big ask, you know, let's say you fell out with your family member eight years ago, and you haven't spoken to them. And they might have done something worth falling out with them for. There's a lot of work to do. But ask yourself this, if they were dead now, how would you feel?
Julia Malcolmson 51:52
Ever that? Sorry? Is anything ever that bad that you can't try and repair a relationship? I mean, I know that that for some people it is, and some people might have done something. But I suppose there's also that that thing about how when you forgive someone, it's actually nothing to do with them.
Martin O'Toole 52:06
Exactly. So there's a chapter on forgiveness called forgiving the unforgivable. And the point is, if you're not talking to somebody, because they crikey they did something heinous. And people do right. Then I fully appreciate you're not going to speak to them again. But Have you forgiven them? Yeah. And there's a there's a big section on considering what forgiveness is because Newsflash, forgiving someone is not about them. It's actually about you holding onto something. And the Buddha talks about this idea of holding on to hot coals, who's getting hurt? Exactly. Well, that they already walked down the street around the corner. And then, you know, skipped off down the street, because they couldn't give a fuck about you. They've done whatever they did. And let's for a moment, you know, let's not judge them though. Because there's a reality. There's a there's a reality and a whole backstory as to why that person did that thing to you. And it's probably got nothing to do with you. It's their own trauma and their own emotional ineptitude, for want of a better word. But all the while they've gone, they've gone off, and you're still holding on to the hot coal. So who's in pain? Exactly? Why are you in pain?
Julia Malcolmson 53:20
That's a really important chapter in this book
Martin O'Toole 53:22
says it is nice. I talk about somebody who did something pretty harsh, pretty heinous to me, which caused me a lot of physical and emotional pain for a long time. You know, a spoiler, all the contents of this book, but it's worth a read. Actually, I'm sure she won't mind me mentioning, Becky, who proof read this book. She said that that chapter really gave her moment for pause, you know, just to really think, to really feel into the idea of forgiveness. I think so many of us go through life, just carrying these negative memories and these ideas about people, right, that person did that to me, put it on the shelf next to them. That person did this to me put it on the shelf. And you know, it's not uncommon for that shell to be absolutely fucking stacked.
Julia Malcolmson 54:15
I'd be honest. It's one of the most important lessons I learned probably in my 20s was how forgiveness has nothing to do with the person that harmed you. Yeah, exactly. allowed me to let go move on, and to live my life without carrying somebody else's issues.
Martin O'Toole 54:32
Exactly that and ultimately, I talked about the science behind some of this stuff. There's plenty of studies to talk about how negative emotions when suppressed or repressed. They make us sick.
Julia Malcolmson 54:46
Yeah, because it because it becomes a physical
Martin O'Toole 54:48
disease, disease and we're not talking about like a cold here. We're talking about heart disease and cancer
Julia Malcolmson 54:55
manifests in the body as a physical manifestation if you don't allow it to move through.
Martin O'Toole 55:00
Absolutely. So there's, you know, why should I forgive? I can think of a few reasons. But one of them is do you want cancer? You know, and this is really as obvious as that. So there's sort of, yeah, one of the I, I learned so much writing this book, because I had these ideas. Yeah, it's bad for you. It's bad for you're holding on to bad stuff, actually, then I started to find these scientific studies in which
Julia Malcolmson 55:22
I actually wanted to ask you that. Because I know that you did a lot of research or I was writing this book. And I imagine you came across some incredible things. But what was the most transformative thing that you learn during your research? Or something that you've really learned that you've kept as a practice or you've really put into your life?
Martin O'Toole 55:45
That's a it's a good, it's a good question that I don't think I learned because I didn't learn anything that I didn't already I wasn't already being involved,
Julia Malcolmson 55:53
possibly deepen your understanding? Yeah, well, I
Martin O'Toole 55:56
would say it's probably there's a chapter in the book called Zen and the Art of Earth rover maintenance. For the regular listeners to the show, you will know that I call the human body and Earth rover, because I'm, I'm one of those people who believes that this meaty suit that we use to romp around planet Earth is called a meaty suit, meaty suit is a vehicle, this vehicle for my consciousness to use. So because I believe I'm more than just my body, I believe you were all more than just a body so. So it's, it's, it's paying homage to the incredible book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which I thoroughly recommend you you will read. And also Chris Prentice wrote a book called Zen and the Art of happiness, which was very much part inspiration for this book a long time ago. It's all about Taoism and addiction. I do this a lot in the book, I'm always saying, oh, yeah, check this out, check this out. And this person said that and this person said that read everything they wrote, you know, is this big respect to a lot of incredible people for having some incredible ideas. But in in that book, I make a point of saying, you know, what, where I'm at now, actually, I'm, I'm in the I've learned a few things about sleep, about about the body about breathwork. So there's lots of books that I'm an author that I mentioned in there, but I'm also saying, so I've read all of these books. I now know that this is where my work needs to go.
Julia Malcolmson 57:25
Well, yeah, I mean, I would, I would say straight away, my first thing would be sleep. Yeah. I mean, you've been you are sleep deprived, presently, presently.
Martin O'Toole 57:34
But put temporarily. I mean, there's a great book called Why We sleep that I mentioned in how to die happy. Yeah, absolutely. But as you know, I enjoy usually eight to 10 hours. And I may, soon as my head hits the pillow, I'm in a coma. I love sleeping. But yeah, the last few weeks I've been sleep deprived for sure. So but then when you read about what what's not happening to your body when you're not sleeping, and alive. So that was one of the things I learned. Yeah, for sure. I mean, but what I learned was actually, I think we're something like 50% more likely to get cancer in later life if we're not getting eight hours sleep. At a mood again, and on the podcast. I wondered
Julia Malcolmson 58:17
when they were gonna make an appearance. hayati.
58:19
Does that review very much I started reading it rough.
Julia Malcolmson 58:23
And I want to jump back in to when I read out a little bit of the book. How does it feel? hearing someone reads your book to you?
Martin O'Toole 58:31
Totally surreal. Yeah, this whole experience is surreal. You know, I, honestly, the books all about change the books all about possibilities, and about us choosing to change or not. And I've chosen this new, exciting, terrifying route. There's a chapter about fear, of course called a side note about fear. Fear gets mentioned over 100 times in this book. And I talked about the comfort zone, the model of the comfort zone. And I'm in this place now where I mean solver in new I've written this book, now it's out there. You know, people are gonna write reviews. No, right. You know, and a natural people pleaser, who is obviously in the space now where he's trying to put things out into the world that help other people, legit in service to others. Obviously, I want it to resonate, then if it doesn't resonate, I'm going
Julia Malcolmson 59:35
to resonate for you. As you, you know, you have to always remember that you won't resonate with everybody. No, hopefully you will resonate with enough people that this book does what you set out to do.
Martin O'Toole 59:50
Well, I set out just to help one or two people. So obviously, it would be the better return on investment if it helped a few more, but it's not going to stop me Yeah, I'm not going to dissuade me. Ultimately, I, I fully embodied this stuff in this book. It's not just intellectualised Bullshit, I'm attached to no outcome, you know that because you know me personally. So this book bumps us, okay? I'm I'm not attached to that I'm not attached to the outcome of this book being an international bestseller either. It would be epic if it was because of course, that would change my life direction, and bring in some money. So I could keep doing this. Because I really do want to keep doing this. I want to keep doing these podcasts. I want to keep writing books like this, as you know, I've got loads more books want to write documentaries we want to make,
Julia Malcolmson 1:00:39
you know, you know, I mean, a lot of people would disagree, but I am not bias because I will tell you the truth. And from where I'm sitting, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this and it's been great to see you develop as a writer to kind of really find your voice.
Martin O'Toole 1:00:56
I got a question for you then what's your favourite part of the book? Are you going to favourite chapter?
Julia Malcolmson 1:01:08
Well, actually,
1:01:09
we'll see you've got lots of
Julia Malcolmson 1:01:11
lots of little tabs open but that's for things that I wanted to read out during the podcast, but my favourite. i The thing is, I would say there's so many different sections within this book that cover a lot of different things. So I don't think I could say my favourite chapter. Because you've got the stories. And I would say as your personal story, my favourite is probably that's a tricky one. I think the one that touches me the most is the one about your mom's death. Because yes, I love the story teabags and a beagle, of course. And last night a beagle saved my life. I read, I know the stories so well. But I feel like the one about your mom was just really showed me a different side to your vulnerability and to your relationship with your mom. So I find that as a personal story in the book, probably to be my favourite. And then utility wise. I really love being able to give people the opportunity to look at their regrets now. Yeah, I think that's a really, really important one. And I would say probably about the chapter about forgiving. Yeah, I think it's such an important subject. Yeah, I mean, you really put me on the spot, because I do want to read this book again. Because I, as I said earlier, I've read this book three times, but from a more editing side. Yeah. How can I get how can I help you structure the book and cut out and so now I'm ready to sit and really read it as a as a audience member?
Martin O'Toole 1:03:04
I appreciate what you said, I think is it's worth touching on the there was a I felt an intrinsic need in writing this to to talk about our relationship with our parents a lot. And it's bloody obvious, isn't it? I mean, let's you know, this is a psycho spiritual book. So we cannot. Even though there's we take the we mock the idea? Oh, yeah. Well, ultimately, everything that happened, every everything that's made up my site, my personalities, mommy issues, daddy issues. Well, yeah. I mean, yeah, you know, I know, I know, we mock that on a regular basis. But more often than not, most of our neuroses are learned in the first eight years of our lives, early childhood development years and yeah, mum and dad or mom and mom and or dad and dad are all just one of them. Because the other one, you know, left you or died, they end our relationship with them. Were the Founding Fathers wouldn't have for one of a better expression of our of our fucked up psychology. And, you know, this was all news to me. I knew my mom was an alcoholic and I but I, you know, I for most of my life, I thought, bulletproof though, I've dealt with this. Look at me, I'm successful. I'm happy. I'm the life and soul of the party. Everybody wants to hang out with me. Blah, blah, blah and alcoholic. Yeah, exactly. Well, but was I prepared to have that conversation? No, actually, I would say as a beautiful dragonfly right next year down there. Wow. I would say I've got drinking. Look at this. I can drink Shitloads every night and I don't have a hangover. I'm fine.
Julia Malcolmson 1:04:58
Yeah, but I mean, I don't want to get onto this as a subject. We are bought up in a culture where it is deemed normal to drink. Yeah, lots
Martin O'Toole 1:05:09
you will, you know, you know, you know my perspective on this I talk about self love in this book a lot because it's it's an absolutely important component to long lasting happiness. And what's the opposite self harm? And yeah, culture and society encourages on a daily basis to harm ourselves. We just don't see it as harm as self harm because it's been so normalised. It's just fucking insane. So on another note
Julia Malcolmson 1:05:37
about that, how many years have you just celebrated 47 of your sobriety? Oh, yes. See, you're not 40? Yes, you are for my birthday last month. No, well. Where are we honest, his brain is not functioning so Well, right now with all the time. But yeah, he's just celebrated five years. sober. And I've just celebrated
1:06:02
three years. And you didn't even have a drink problem. Oh,
Julia Malcolmson 1:06:06
wow. I mean, now I look back on it. I probably did. I mean, I did drink a lot. But I think I'd started to cut down anyway, just through, just through my lifestyle didn't work with drinking anyway. So yeah,
Martin O'Toole 1:06:17
do you know what just to just take a moment to acknowledge everybody who follows me on social media and the podcasts and social media because I've had so much love and, and, and respect from people, just from that little post saying, I was five years sober. Thank you. That means it really means a lot. I have a lot of gratitude for gratitude, to me, first and foremost, for making that decision.
Julia Malcolmson 1:06:40
Now you just eat cake. Hey,
Martin O'Toole 1:06:42
you got it, I got a cake problem. But it's not a bad thing. Now. Well, let's face it, you know, if my only vices is more than one cake, in a week, then I'm doing all right. But actually is in that book, the results? So I can't remember where but I take time to apologise to everyone. Yeah. Which is, is kind of a you know, I suppose some people might see it as a cop out. But it's not. Because ultimately, I've done as much work as I could to make amends. It's very heartfelt. Well, it's the last attempt to make amends, because I've spent the last few years reaching out to people and apologising. And, you know, as I say, in the book, it's been received by some well and not so well by others, or have been completely ignored. But ultimately, I thought it was important to, to put that in, in this book to say, look, you know, I know what I did.
Julia Malcolmson 1:07:44
Well, let's hope they read the chapter on forgiveness and deal with it from their side, and whether they doesn't matter for you, does it? You know, it doesn't.
Martin O'Toole 1:07:50
The point is to put it out there. That's ultimately, you know, I gotta let go of that. No, not that I really, I think, thankfully, I forgive. I've done all that work, to forgive myself. But it was still important to put it out there. In reality, I think this is a sad, the sad fact about the way we work about how ego works. If I'm angry with you, and I don't want to forgive you, then I'm not going to read your fucking book. Which, you know, that's kind of ironic, isn't it? Yeah. That's not my jam. So, yeah.
Julia Malcolmson 1:08:24
But it's been it's a good process for you. It's been really beautiful to watch. Once you do that, and to read that part that vulnerability and, um, you sending out that apology into the world because you sent it out into the field and that's what matters. Exactly the vibration is the the jump jumping back. Actually, you asked me a minute ago what my favourite part of the book was, I am just gonna, from a personal point of view, the book is dedicated to
1:08:46
me, which is very beautiful, because your favourite father?
Julia Malcolmson 1:08:49
It's not really like it is very, very touching. And
1:08:54
what does it say?
Julia Malcolmson 1:08:56
Really? For Jules, thank you for your unending support of my transformation as a writer guiding me to become a better man and showing me facets of love. I did not know existed. I see and honour you with all my heart and soul.
Martin O'Toole 1:09:15
Has Jake and his wife seen the movie Avatar? I see.
Julia Malcolmson 1:09:23
And there's a very nice section at the end where you talk about when we met. So you know, like there's those little personal bits in there, which is very beautiful. So thank you for acknowledging me and my
Martin O'Toole 1:09:35
thank you for being you for playing such an incredible role in the mountain story.
Julia Malcolmson 1:09:41
Sorry, guys to get a bit costly there. I'm gonna move on we
Martin O'Toole 1:09:44
can do that. It's ultimately, you know, and also this episode is as much as you know, it's reverence to you as well, as much as anything else. It's nice, nice for you to be in the driving seat. We should do more of these. Okay,
Julia Malcolmson 1:09:57
well, let's see. Let's put a vote out there. Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to read out another section because this is another one that I, from the very beginning the very first draft of your book, I really, I just liked the way it's written, but also it already gives her utility. So I'm just gonna read this out this is from death and religion. In the event that you are terminally ill, with very little time left, tackle this books, many utilities, I offer some straightforward advice, love and be grateful to yourself. Hold your hands over your hearts, and forgive yourself. Let go. Contrary to popular misconception, it is never too late to change, right up to the very end to the last days or minutes of your life. You can embrace respect, and fully understand that you always have a choice. And what better things to choose than forgiveness and love. With this intention, bask in self gratitude for making such a choice. Be thankful for your awareness and presence, then maybe skip to this book's concluding chapter to maximise the precious time you have left. Or God willing, there's an audio book of my ramblings, for efficiency sake, perhaps listen at 1.5 speed. And when you finished, consider giving it to someone else. Pay it forward.
Martin O'Toole 1:11:33
Yeah, handover before you die, otherwise it get dusty.
Julia Malcolmson 1:11:36
I just think, you know, these moments in the book where you give those little utilities, these little moments to breathe, to pause to reflect and have really special. And I actually wondered what your favourite utility is in this book. Whether that's one of the Breathworks, or one of the philosophies. You know, there's a mixture,
Martin O'Toole 1:12:01
it's a really good question, I would say, and this book is stuffed to the stitches with practical utility. So it's definitely a tricky question. And then just before I answer it, these utilities are utilities that I learned, and then I baked them into my practice. And they made my existence at a school. Distinctly more interesting and more fun and more calm. And peace loving. So I would say that there are probably two really simple utilities. But I'm only allowed one. Okay, well, I will say Rumi's three gates. Is that the one you've highlighted?
Julia Malcolmson 1:12:49
I was literally after you did this. This was gonna be my next section, too.
Martin O'Toole 1:12:54
Okay. Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's just over a page. So you're going to read it anyway.
Julia Malcolmson 1:12:59
I was gonna read the actual utility. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's so funny.
1:13:05
I mean, it's a good one.
Julia Malcolmson 1:13:06
And before we speak, level words, pass through three gates. At the first gate, ask yourself, Is it true? At the second gate, ask, is it necessary? At the third gate, ask is it kind?
Martin O'Toole 1:13:29
Right? Yeah. So Rumi, for those of you who don't know, is a 12th century Sufi mystic and poet, Jules and I actually went to visit his grave, didn't we? Is
Julia Malcolmson 1:13:41
I was it. I think it was one of the places that he lived.
Martin O'Toole 1:13:44
You didn't have a I thought that his body in there as well in Konya, Turkey? No. Well, he was very where he lived and trained. Anyway, Rumi was a absolute legend, this guy, just this guy was channelling stuff. And if you don't know of him, I highly doubt you've never heard of Rumi. But if you haven't, check him out. Even if you have check him out. Again, it's all point this book is reminding us as all this wisdom is there, we just forget about it. But what a beautiful utility.
Julia Malcolmson 1:14:14
I find myself actually, every now and then using it because I think we've recently noticed this quite a big shift in energy. And we've been struggling a little bit with certain elements of of where we live, and nothing's that bad. But I just find every now and then reminding myself of those gates, and just pausing before I react before I send a message or whatever it might be. I just find those three utilities are so important. Those three questions. Yes, so necessary, and the rule is real time you go, man, I don't need to say that.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:51
Absolutely. And the rule is really simple. You can't just say, Well, it's true. So I'm going to send it No, no, no, no, no. Is it true, kind unnecessary. That is, it is All through. And if it's not, then just don't do it just just
Julia Malcolmson 1:15:02
pause. And even if you like we do this sometimes you write it and then you read it out loud and then you delete it. I don't need to send that there's no, it's not gonna get me anywhere. It's just let it go. Well, I
Martin O'Toole 1:15:12
think that's a that's actually another good practical utility that actually I don't put in the book. But if, if that's what you need to do, if somebody says something, or does something that really pisses you off, write your response. Just don't send it. Yeah, just but then read out loud. Because actually, when you read out loud, you're like, oh, yeah, that's a bit harsh, actually, is that necessarily fucking now that's gonna, that's gonna cause more problems. Actually, there's another utility in the book reading, which of course, if push comes to shove, you have zero interest in anything else. It's the Confucian golden rule. You know, which actually, as it transpires is shared. It's a fundamental tenet across all philosophies. It's just got different line, different language around it, but what's the Confucian golden rule? Treat others the way you would hope to be treated? I'm paraphrasing. But imagine that imagine if we all did that. And how often do we do it? Well, we don't do it, you know, and there are lots of reasons why we don't treat people the way we should treat them. Because we are in our own you know, mad moment the monkeys driving the earth rover and we're in a fucking bad mood or, you know, we're late for a meeting or you know, we got out of bed the wrong side or our partner just gave us a lot of shit before we walked into this place. I talked about this in the in the book, I do a lot of writing in eateries, cafes and restaurants and I love to to be in sort of engaged with that energy. Some people say how the fuck do you write you're like I was writing I wrote this book, a lot of this book in ether is in this book on a ferry, I tenderise. Some on a ferry. Yeah. And it was a mad fairies, what was net crossing, crossing across Indonesia. But the point is, I enjoy that. But actually, you know, spending so much time in these places, you see a really see another side of humanity. It's not a nice side. It's people treat in serving stuff really badly. And it's an interesting thing. You know, you think how people treat people when there's nothing to gain from that person is a really interesting observation. And it's certainly something I'm inviting readers to take on board. And it's all about presence. You know, so, yeah, the Confucian golden rule is like the number one. Yeah, totally. And I think it's something that we could all spend a bit more time considering.
Julia Malcolmson 1:17:31
There's another utility that I wanted to bring up, because this one you talk about a lot, and it's Cartman Drama Triangle. And it features a lot it was in the book, but it's not. I mean, you you refer to it a lot in podcasts in general conversations. And why is it such a fundamental lesson? So I'm gonna say that again? Why is it such a fundamental
1:17:58
problem? The mundum Why is it a fundamental?
Julia Malcolmson 1:18:03
Going in the outtakes now leaving? Fundamental why can I say that? I'm gonna leave all of them. Why is it why is
Martin O'Toole 1:18:13
it if you want to edit and you have to take a breath?
Julia Malcolmson 1:18:17
Why is it such a fundamentally I was breathing them? Why is it such a fundamental lesson for you? The Drama Triangle been such a fundamental SNP
Martin O'Toole 1:18:27
carp Munz Drama Triangle is a fundamental lesson for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that I spent decades addicted to drama. So I was carrying a boatload of drama around with me. And when you do that, when you when you invite drama, you're usually assuming one of three roles. That's why it's called the Drama Triangle three, you are either a persecutor of a victim or a rescuer. And I realised through doing the early work, the shadow work and the Self Realisation, work of a few years ago, how addicted to drama I had been. And so that was the first the first reason why it's so important to me. The second reason is that in in understanding that I then realise that so few of us are aware that the this is a phenomenon. You know, we just, we just think people are just people and we're just as in our relationship with that person, and that person is just what it is. And, you know, we just got to deal with them. And the reality is, no, that's not life. No, we're not supposed to just sit around and take shit from people. And actually, when you realise that the relationships you have with a lot of people are toxic, one way or the other. because this is this is the deal. It's not about oh, yeah, that person is toxic. No, no, no, no, no. Maybe you're toxic. And you've got, you've got to own that you got to, you got to dig into that realise that you got to sit in the stench of that, which is shadow work. And then once you've done that, then of course, you can move on. But this idea that we can all be toxic to each other. And so I talk about the Drama Triangle in the book and use some examples of how these, these transactions can play out. Because I think it's really important to understand that if you are in a Drama Triangle with one or two people, and the reality is you could be in seventh or eighth, you know, actually, if you think about, it depends who you're knocking around with, and what you're getting up to. But it's not uncommon to have several people who bring drama to the to the table on a regular basis, you have to learn how to identify it. And as she then once you've identified it, you then have to ask yourself, Why am I doing why am I allowing this? Why is this? Why what's the point of this? Because actually, it's, it's hugely draining emotionally, then therefore, physically, and you're in a toxic relationship with somebody, and I invite people pragmatically to prune.
Julia Malcolmson 1:21:17
Yeah, I was gonna say you have a blank page for people in my life regularly inviting drama, and my current drama triangles. And actually, that's helped. I've been trying to find a quote in the book that I love the way you've written it. And it's happened to be on this page. And it's, it's the beat bit about that, I found it and I can't find it. When you talk about reversing back from the
Martin O'Toole 1:21:38
thing. It's just just this little bit before. Yeah,
Julia Malcolmson 1:21:41
despite your best efforts, certain relationships will never improve. In that case, the next time you're in a drama triangle with a repeat offender, hold up your hands, stop them in their tracks, make a loud, eat noise and begin reversing like a truck.
Martin O'Toole 1:21:58
Yeah, it's up to you. You literally want to do that. But you get the idea. Like, just get that fuck out of there. Yeah. And it is it is literally that pragmatic. And, of course, I think I make this observation in the book, you might think that's a little bit contradictory to the, to the whole vibe of love, and oneness and connection that that this books, hopefully sings from the rooftops. But if this book is about love, well, identifying and getting out of drama triangles is about self love. Yeah. But it's also about it is about communal love. You know, actually, if you draw boundaries with people, you're also helping them. They might not know it, or they might not realise it at the time, but you are helping somebody else's personal development, if you point out their bullshit. Yeah, it's just there's there's a line to all of this, right? Because there are times when there's just no point where they say, what's
Julia Malcolmson 1:22:47
your other one, it's the invisible invitation sent and blindly received reads, there's a pity party and you're invited, please come bring your own drinks and snacks. Yes, nobody loves me. I mean, it's true, you know, that there's the victim, there's a point where I'm, you know, I'm always happy to be there for people that need me. But there does come a point where you have to draw a line. And it's, if they're not making the steps to change a situation or to, to improve upon something, you can't keep listening to the same story. And I will to a point, of course, because I always have my friends without judgement. But I do think if you want to help them, rather than keep enabling them to repeat the same cycle, there's got to be a point where you draw the line and step in a little bit. And that's without becoming the rescuer. So, it is quite a blurry line, sometimes where you want to use of course, you want to help your friends and family, but there has to be a point where you draw a line.
Martin O'Toole 1:23:49
Yeah. And you can set up you can set up micro rules around that utility. So minus three strikes and you're out. Okay? So, you know, if somebody if somebody adopts regularly adopts the victim role with me, and I say, Hey, how you doing today? And they say, oh, you know, the cat died, and you know, you know, I got a flat tire and you know, bla bla, and then, and I find myself sitting through that for five minutes. And at no point, do they say, how are you? And then it's like, oh, okay, well, you know, good luck with the cat. The funeral goes well, and, you know, I've got Jack in the car if you want me to help me do the tire, nessa you walk away, right, okay, this one, right, come back again. Hey, how you doing? And I'm, uh, you know, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm like I'm upbeat. But you know, hey, how you doing? Well, the dog ran off with the, the undertaker from the cat's funeral and you know, and somebody stole this and yada yada and yeah, it's Who Who are we helping? who's benefiting from that from from allowing those exchanges to continue? That's that's the fundamental point. This is not me, Mark. Seeing people who have a hard time with life, this is not me mocking depression either, by the way, because of course, more often than not, if people are coming out, they're coming at you with that sort of energy all the time, then there is a good chance that they've got underlying depression. But we're not helping them or ourselves by just continuing to, to allow them to propagate that sort of that sort of energy, because it's not helping anybody. So and that's the point of the Drama Triangle to be able to say, okay, maybe I'm not going to be as black and white as Martin is. But what role is this person adopting the victim in that instance? What role Shall I adopt? Well, I can either pick on him, so I could be a persecutor. Or I can hop straight into that turgid pool of misery and try to rescue them. And there is some examples in the book. But then what is rescuing look like? Because if I then say, Oh, I'm so sorry, what can I do? And then some people, some people who adopt the role of victim, they don't want you to do anything, they just want you to sit there. And listen. And this is where the book gets a little bit metaphysical. And it does get metaphysical in places. You don't realise this. But that person is actually draining your energy. And as you know, I'll invite this the listeners and the viewers to just consider this for a moment. Is there anyone in your life now that after you've spent some time with them, whatever it is a coffee or beer or a glass of wine or coconut? You know, you just see them in the street, you feel tired? You feel exhausted? Well, there's a reason for that, is because they are actually draining your energy, that connection is a toxic connection. So is that self love? Nope. Is that going to make you happy? Absolutely not. If you continue to fuel the fire of their bullshit. Are you helping anybody? No. So be beep. Yeah, get out of it. But then I also talk about burns transactional analysis in the book, and Eric Burns has three personalities that he talks about in each of our transactions or interactions, the parent, the adult, the child. So what I suggest in the book is if you do have a relationship like that with somebody say, well, now you're doing this, this is bad for me. This is this, you're riding roughshod all over my boundaries, we talk about boundaries in the book, too. So I'm stepping out of this, but I'm not just going to leave you, I'm inviting you to step out of it, too. And actually, let's use another utility, which is burns transactional analysis. And let's try an adult to adult conversation. Because actually, the way you're communicating to me now, it's not adult. If we were brutally honest, there's a wounded child in there. And I don't want to feed this Wounded Child in this way. So we know it's complex.
Julia Malcolmson 1:27:46
I think they're very, very complex utilities. And I think when they're new for people, it can actually be quite confrontational. For sure, I think the more we look at them, and the more we analyse those relationships in our life, we start to see the benefit.
Martin O'Toole 1:28:02
You know, something I talk about a lot in this book is judgement. And the point that whilst I might use an example like that, which would which will trigger some people it's going to trigger is going to trigger a victim, isn't it, it's going to trigger a persecutor as well. I say without judgement, I've been all of those people. I've been all of those roles. Anytime I highlight any neuroses whatsoever. I'm doing it with love because I've been there. I've been that person. And I know full well that there's no way on this earth I could sit here judging anybody for doing thinking or saying something that I have done thought or said. That said, what's the alternative? I don't make these observations. We then don't have any lessons to discuss. So it's got to be discussed, but it's never discussed. With a you know, in a judgmental way, I mean, I guess, you know, that example you just gave the pity party brings string drinks and snacks. PS nobody loves me. Yeah, you know, that's a bit of a that's that's making fun of the situation.
Julia Malcolmson 1:29:10
Yeah, but it's also you bring in your humour and your style into the way you've written it and it kind of just sometimes it lightens, lightens the mood, and we need that
Martin O'Toole 1:29:18
I had to do that because otherwise it's this stuff gets very dense very quickly. And but you know, there's a point of, you know, bring drinks and snacks. Are you fucking kidding me? But that's the point. It's not even bring your own drink. Let's bring everything and yourself and a Briggs spec straw, so I can stick it in you and slurp all your energy out of you. Geez, that's the sound like a sort of pie I want to go to. But I did used to host many a pity party. So I got love for anybody who is listening to this right now. triggered and saying, motherfucker, you're mocking me being triggered
Julia Malcolmson 1:29:55
is good. It's, you know, and it's often the beginning of it. during some of this work,
Martin O'Toole 1:30:01
as long as you're willing to accept that you're being triggered, you know, this is the fundamental point of this book that I make many, many, many times there's there is an event. And then there's our emotional response to that event. Is that event in any way, at fault, more often than not new. And of course, some events are heinous. But what I tried to say, one of my mantras now is that, that all events carry lessons. The big question is, are you ready to receive them?
Julia Malcolmson 1:30:37
I like that. I'm going to ask you some quick questions. I just want you to fill in the blanks of these questions. After reading this book, I hope the readers will
1:30:51
learn to love
Julia Malcolmson 1:30:55
it I wrote this book to help people
1:30:59
learn to love.
Julia Malcolmson 1:31:02
Find a new answer.
Martin O'Toole 1:31:04
Understand what happiness is and is not.
Julia Malcolmson 1:31:11
If you could only read one chapter, what would it be?
Martin O'Toole 1:31:16
Chapter 52. The Anatomy of happy no chapter 5050.
Julia Malcolmson 1:31:23
Would you like me to check chapter 50?
Martin O'Toole 1:31:25
The Anatomy of happy?
Julia Malcolmson 1:31:28
Yes.
Martin O'Toole 1:31:31
Thank you. Incidentally, obviously, when you hear 52 chapters, you might think words, some of these chapters are like a page.
Julia Malcolmson 1:31:37
Yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely. When you when you look at the chapters, the table of contents, it looks like a lot. But yeah, and it's not it's broken up. So I'm actually I actually was gonna mention that to you. The layout of this book. I really love like seeing it in print, and seeing the way you've laid it out and the artwork.
Martin O'Toole 1:31:58
Well, that was with some help from Josh Kim. No, but yeah, I actually, you people might not know this, but I made this book, I actually learned how to use Adobe InDesign. And I laid it all out myself. Working with some ideas and a template from from Josh, and some beautiful illustrations,
Julia Malcolmson 1:32:16
less than good quotes in here too. And actually, I just opened onto the one my favourite one. If you're really a mean person, you're going to come back as I fly and eat poop. love that quote.
Martin O'Toole 1:32:28
Yeah, I mean, there are so many incredible quotes in each chapter begins with a quote. And of course, I quote other people as well. So it's, it's difficult to sort of put a pin in it and say, Is this all Eastern wisdom? Because no, it's not actually no, we're talking about Eastern philosophies a lot. And I quote Lao Tzu and I quote The Buddha and, but then I'm quoting Kurt Cobain, Woody Allen, Mick Jagger. Eckhart Tolle
Julia Malcolmson 1:32:51
then says, knowledge, and there's wisdom goes around. It's not absolutely you know, it comes to all of us in its own time, its own way and whatever resonates is what we pick up on. So
Martin O'Toole 1:33:03
that's the beautiful thing about it isn't it is and one of the things I talk about a lot in the book is this idea of religion and spirituality, and how if we've been burned, or generationally, we've been burned by religion, and many people have, then we, we have a very high wall, with closed doors to the idea of spirituality. You know, it's all nonsense. It's all sky fairies, and, you know, Hocus Pocus, as we'll put a lot of people will think about this idea of spirituality. Listen, I was an agnostic and atheist, you know, I was hopping on and off that fence for years. But through my own experience, my journey working with these practices, yoga, meditation, and of course psychedelics, talk about psychedelics a lot in the book. I'm no longer either of those two things. I know, I've, I've personally experienced a great many things that tell me that we are not just what we're not what we think we are, and when this place is not what we think it is, either. But the point I'm rambling towards is that actually there's a lot of incredible wisdom in these religions, in these old philosophies and in these ideas. And hopefully, I've done a good job of, of dragging some of it into the 21st century a bid and say, Look, you know, this person said that, but this is, this is why, actually, this is the sense in this. So, but, you know, other people have been doing this for years.
Julia Malcolmson 1:34:41
Well, yeah, you know, me I'm sold on all this.
1:34:44
For sure. Wow, I'm talking to the
Julia Malcolmson 1:34:47
Okay, Martin. Yes. Julia, what is next for you?
Martin O'Toole 1:34:53
That's great, because that's a question I always ask people in the podcast. Um, well,
Julia Malcolmson 1:34:59
obviously first So we are going to be taking a break. Yeah, spending some time together
Martin O'Toole 1:35:04
big time I want to, I want to spend some time honouring you and worshipping you, and your feminine, because I love you. And you've been incredible through this whole process. And I want everybody to know that. So yeah, we're gonna do a bit of that. And then all being well, we're gonna go to South America and make a documentary. Can't talk too much about that at this stage. But there are many plans afoot to create a, an incredible documentary that's going to talk about alternative ways to heal. And I'm going to write a book about that too. So that's next, I've got a number of other books I want to write it's couple of screenplays chucking about at the moment. But I guess, you know, as I don't know, you know, I'm I live in the present. So I can't get too attached to any idea of a future but it is my sincere hope that this book resonates with enough people that that obviously people buy it and review it. And if you do choose to buy everybody, then please do review it because I am subject to the algorithm of Amazon just like anybody else. And if honestly, you live or die by that shit, it's quite scary.
Julia Malcolmson 1:36:24
How can people buy your book?
Martin O'Toole 1:36:27
Great question you can buy on any Amazon site worldwide. There is also there are also ISBN numbers for these books. So which are probably put on the website if you want to find them how to die happy book.com You can find out more about the book you can get previews of the book there. The on the how to die happy podcast, YouTube, there is a really beautiful video shot at the lighthouse studio of me reading one of the chapters chapter 20, about shadow work. So go into any bookstore you like if you don't like Amazon, go into any bookstore and say, here's an ISBN for a book I want it and then the book, The bookstore will be able to order it. If you're in barley, it's it's around. So still talking to people and doing deals. But hopefully it's going to be in a little garden and periplus in the pyramids of chi openair community and Munduk challah where else Latrobe, you, there's quite a few places in in Bali, where people want to stock it so and if you're, they can't find it and you want to get in touch. I'll make sure you get a copy. But yeah, even if people buy this, and if that works out, then that's going to that'll change my direction. That means I can really plough into this and do this full time and actually get paid for it, which would be amazing.
Julia Malcolmson 1:37:57
Nice. Well, I think it's time to bring this to an end. If anything, it's just because I'm starving. And I'd love to eat some cake after that. Okay. But thank you for joining me on your podcast.
1:38:14
Thank you for joining me on your podcast.
Julia Malcolmson 1:38:17
And yeah, I once again, I just want to say congratulations on completing this book and actually having it printed. I mean, this is I have this in my hands. Feels really, really special. So surreal. Yes. Very, very surreal. So well done. Thank you, darling. And if you have any questions about the book, please reach out to us. And we love hearing from you. And I think that's it.
Martin O'Toole 1:38:41
Yeah. And if you do buy it, you know, get allow social and share the stuff that you like us the other thing, I think, I think one of the things I want this book to ultimately be to people is, is seed. Yeah, that yeah, there's the process there. There's the anatomy of happy but you do it whichever way works for you, you know, like, it might not be breathwork it might not be meditation, it might not be plant medicine, or it might be one of those things and less of the other so the whole point is in do whatever works for you. But yeah, share it i i have this very lofty aspiration that maybe we can start a conversation here. Where this book starts a conversation then then starts more conversations. putting that out there in the field, because I hope that is the case. So yeah, share that stuff. And I'd love to hear from people about it.
Julia Malcolmson 1:39:33
Nice. So thank you. Thank you. Very strange having a conversation with you this far away from each other. Yeah, three microphone. Well, let's
Martin O'Toole 1:39:41
get cosy. Let's get cosy in a cake.
Julia Malcolmson 1:39:44
Great.
Martin O'Toole 1:39:45
Thank you so much.
Julia Malcolmson 1:39:47
Love you.
Martin O'Toole 1:40:16
I love you.
