SUMMARY KEYWORDS
forgiveness, felt, forgive, apologise, realised, martin, behaviour, holding, meet, suppose, process, perspective, forgiving, wonderful, bit, happening, idea, event, long, life
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Ryan Loftus
Martin O'Toole 00:14
Hello, Ryan.
Ryan Loftus 00:17
Hello, Martin.
Martin O'Toole 00:18
How the devil in devil Oh, yeah.
Ryan Loftus 00:20
Very good. Very good. Happy to be here. It's kind of taking me back to that time that Well, the first time. It's almost like you interviewing me again?
Martin O'Toole 00:31
Well as taking you back to do ministry? Wow Yeah When was that?
Ryan Loftus 00:39
Maybe three years ago
Martin O'Toole 00:41
man alive? Yeah. So well I suppose you you could introduce yourself to our listeners.
Ryan Loftus 00:48
Yeah so in well I'm Ryan home Martin, I am a writer and in Martin's previous life or in maybe our previous lives I worked for Martin once upon a time and spent the grand total of about what was it three weeks before the company? Yeah this brand new job that I was really, really excited about.
Martin O'Toole 01:24
I was really excited about you coming to work with us as well. Yeah.
Ryan Loftus 01:29
And three weeks in yet, but I think your eyes popped and something had happened your eyes exploded or
Martin O'Toole 01:39
as blind as I'd had the surgery maybe. But of course the main, the main thing was I went to an undisclosed North African country to do an Ayahuasca journey.
Ryan Loftus 01:51
Yeah, yeah. And I was sort of kind of just meeting you at that point. And felt like I was in the sort of maelstrom of your of that point in your life, which is obviously hugely influential. And you closed the business down and we worked at your kitchen desk. I think it's my, the remainder of my contract. You actually said to me, I technically don't have to keep you on. But you're alright. So you know, you can work a notice period if you fancy it. Well, you were very kind of you.
Martin O'Toole 02:24
Well, you were brilliant. And you still are. Yeah. Wow, that seems like such a long time ago. It was definitely Martin version 1.0. And you, you and I first met right slap bang in the eye of the storm of my third mental breakdown, I think I think that was probably the best way to, to describe the maelstrom. And yeah, I was really looking forward to the next year, which would have been what 2019 what we were going to do with the business that the agency was doing super well and it was growing fast. But I was having this major meltdown and this attack of conscience about the whole thing and what we were doing and then the Ayahuasca plant medicine, spoke to me and I came back close the business didn't I
Ryan Loftus 03:16
did friendship in endured through that, which I think is a wonderful thing.
Martin O'Toole 03:24
I should say it was forged through that actually. I think we had a wonderful time actually getting to know one another. And if I recall, we shared the same pawnshop for chicken Mangle. which for those of you who either are vegan or or aren't down with with your worldly cuisine, this is a type of grilled chicken wrap that you can acquire from any good Turkish hostelry in some of the schmancy parts of London are actually not special fancy cars, I suppose. Actually. The mangle Turkish places here in all this sort of random spots out there
Ryan Loftus 04:08
was quite affordable was the one in Camberwell from
Martin O'Toole 04:12
Camberwell slash pack and wasn't it? Oh, gosh. Well, that was a long time ago. And it's actually so funny. It's funny that you should even bring that up Ryan because I actually wanted what I wanted to talk about in this podcast really relates relates to, to those events in a way because actually, there were a number of people who fell out with me royally through that process when I when I made that decision and and then of course, I had to make a number of of really tough choices. It's for anybody who's who's got their own business or has had a business that was in some sort of a fraught situation, even if you decided to put it in that situation. You I understand the the amount of pressure, the mental pressure really is immense. It's an it's, it's very, very unpleasant for a mental health perspective is awful. And so yeah, a lot a lot of people were perturbed and upset and quite angry with me. You, despite finding out the packing a job and come to work for me for the grand total of three weeks, we're going to be out of work again. You took it all the new stride?
Ryan Loftus 05:31
Yeah, well, I guess I could see that you. Hey, I didn't really no, you be a hadn't been working there for an extremely long time. And I think maybe a lot of people who who didn't know you and had been working there for a long time, maybe we would have had different perspectives, but I could kind of see strangely that you will maybe not Strangely, I guess I've picked up on your vibration at the time of being in a storm of, of of sorts. And and I think I could exceed, see the pressure that that was exerting on your head back. And I and shoulders and shoulders and various parts of your body and it was her choice? Precisely. And it's not the night? Yeah, I mean, I could I could I got it. I understood that. That wasn't sustainable.
Martin O'Toole 06:34
No, no, it wasn't something had to give, unfortunately, sort of all, it all gave at the same time. And I remember through that process, wondering whether or not I would ever survive that, you know, I genuinely was. Again, I suppose questioning the point of being on the planet, and so on and so forth. And, and through that some people who were who I thought were really incredibly close to me really did show another side and turn on me in some very unexpected ways. Which is interesting, because I wanted to talk today with you about forgiveness, and about letting go. But I hadn't joined up the two ideas of what I wanted to talk about, and of course, how we met, because you were incredibly forgiving. And then we went on to become I would say, good friends. I would agree. And actually, we've written a screenplay together, haven't we? Since which needs
Ryan Loftus 07:37
to be finished? Yes, it does. Wandering down. It's tantalisingly close to it is to be unfinished, which is almost worse than not starting something
Martin O'Toole 07:48
it's actually an inefficient took away from being finished. Yeah. So So we've we've gone on to create a not just one screenplay. It's it's a comedy TV show. We've created the pilot the whole first season and well, the concept behind the first season. And I think it's a really wonderful character. So yes, we must. We must rekindled that forthwith.
Ryan Loftus 08:09
Agreed, agreed.
Martin O'Toole 08:12
So on the subject of forgiveness now, as you know, the common sorry, the thread that holds the how to die happy podcast together is the top 10 Common deathbed regrets. And it's a very woeful list. I must say, and I don't know if you've happened upon the entirety of it. But it's got all manner of pretty sad things in it. And you think I every time I read it, I just imagine these people who are at death's door, it's all too late to make any major changes and, and then, of course, they were interviewed by all of these people were interviewed through a piece of research hence I've got a hold of this, this information. And they laid out this long list of regrets and, and one of the many regrets was I wish I had, I wish I'd let go of grudges. And I've actually been reminded this week and you just mentioned my I, some people listening to this most people listening to this won't know the whole story about my I need to tell the story in order to explain that the injury apparently has reoccurred in some way. So back in 2015, I'd started dating someone and she had very recently broken up with her partner. Now, Martin version 1.0 Wasn't really bothered about the proximity. Or the fact that this man may or may not still be in love with this girl. In fact, he was already declared this to Martin one point, version 1.0 was was rather haphazard and a drama addict. So headlong, did he go into a relationship with this girl and shortly thereafter, this chap sought me out in my local pub in the city of Leeds in the UK, and deliberately tried to stir up a fraca slash a fight with me. And when I chose not to fight him, he, a lot of people got in in the middle of it and sort of pulled this guy away from me, I think I had him in an arm lock or a headlock or something. And just as he was being pulled away, he sucker punched me super hard. I wasn't expecting it, like a sledgehammer right in the face, fractured my eye socket, got his knuckle in my eyeball and damaged unfortunately, the iris, the sphincter, if you like around the lens, so it was misshapen. Anyway, long story short, ultimately, this chap tried to harass this partner of mine and threatened to kill everyone and bla bla bla, and was eventually arrested, charged and, and in the end, he was convicted of grievous assault. So Wow. So I, meanwhile, was going through a great deal of pain and trauma. And, and I think also now I realised PTSD, because this, this event was a shocker. But it also the pain that came with it is like pain I've never known, you know, when you've got an eye injury. It's like somebody's squeezing your eyeball inside your head. And then there was the, I suppose the pride that that egoic issue of the fact that this man had had got the better of me, and of course, feeling like a wounded lion, as a result of it, or wounded, wounded pussycats probably more, more appropriate in the situation. And, and I went through this whole sort of process almost of grieving, because Meanwhile, my eyesight got incredibly worse. And eventually, the lens of my just fell inside my eyeball because of the iris being broken. And I got cataracts, I got blind or became blind. So I had to have a surgery to have the betta fish the lens out of my eyeball, which is no fun, dear folks. And ultimately, I was I think I spent six months with no lens. And then then they went back in and they they installed an implant, which was a very clever little plastic implant. And then I went to Bali. And then shortly thereafter, probably only a few months later, it was it became dislodged while I was surfing. And it caused me a great deal of pain because it was sort of stabbing the inside of my cornea. And I was facing surgery anyway. very cheerful tale of woe. But I actually actually had got out I'd actually begun to get over the pain. At the same time is starting to deal with the idea of forgiving this guy.
13:23
Martin O'Toole 13:42
So I suppose I was interested to have a conversation with you about forgiveness. And of course, I'll carry on the story. But what's your view of forgiveness, but perchance you've not had such a heinous incident occurred. But you may well have had some other situation where you've had to be forced to forgive.
Ryan Loftus 14:03
Yeah, what I mean for me the way I see it now, and you spoke about it on your, on your last chinwag with Richie, which was great, by the way, I love listening to that. And and he spoke about Cymatics and storing this storing traumas inside of yourself or in your body.
Martin O'Toole 14:28
We literally embody the trauma. Yes.
Ryan Loftus 14:31
And that is something I think over the recent years that I'm becoming more aware of that. If you can't forgive, then that grudge will be stored somewhere. Whether that's in your body or you know in your mind somewhere and to free yourself of that is a big gift, I think to yourself and to your body, but can almost come at the end The price of looking as though you know, like you were saying earlier about your your pride being hurt. And I can imagine that, you know, when you felt like that pussycat had been beaten around, maybe or wounded, that the idea of forgiveness was, it would have probably angered you to think about forgiving him at that point. I mean, in terms of my own, so when I was about 13, I took the decision to stop seeing my dad. And that then went on for probably about 10 years. And over these years, I sort of cold contact with him. Because at that point in my life, I felt that our relationship, it wasn't, it wasn't working for me, it wasn't. It wasn't serving me. So I made that decision, which is quite a big decision to make when you're 13. And gradually, as the sort of years went on, I would think about, you know, a year I never gonna get by, I don't need to get back in touch with him, I don't need to. I mean, I've obviously had a grievance with him during my childhood, basically, for the way he might have acted in certain situations. But then, I remember the day that I got back in touch with him. And I think I'd come to a place where I thought, If I don't, if I can't forgive this man, for what I thought were wrongdoings. How is that going to? How can I properly process that part of my life? And how can I get past that and how that will always be locked up somewhere that that thought of this. And if I can't meet him on a level and say, This is how I felt about you, I remember we went for, we went for a curry at the jewel in the crown, which is one of swindon's premier, Indian restaurants. And I remember explaining that, I said, Look, I don't expect anything to be different. Obviously, it couldn't be because we can't go back in time. And I, there's nothing I expect from you. But I need to tell you, that this is how I felt about that period of my life. And that I forgive you. Because I could see now with retrospect that you acted out of a place of x, y, or Zed. And that's got nothing to do with me. Much like maybe the way that that man acted with you had maybe less to do, uh, well, I'm not sure maybe it you know, maybe Martin v1 aided the process a little bit more, but in terms of understanding and forgiving, and being able to, I guess, understand that you those actions are sometimes projected. And, and that felt extremely freeing actually, to forgive at that point. And it worked for me. And it happened to be at a point where I could Yeah, feasibly understand what was happening within that situation. And just the lightness of you know, what, that before I, before I went to meet him, I remember thinking, God, I don't know if I need to do this, or do I need to forgive him? Can I can I not just move on with my life, but you know, there's an argument that you could just sort of move on. But it it needed to be done and, and relieving that internal. You almost give yourself like I said earlier, a bit of a gift. Give yourself a bit of space when you forgive, I think
Martin O'Toole 19:18
thanks for sharing us a beautiful story. And I think the fact that you went to meet him as well was probably do you think, do you think you could have forgiven him without him being present? Or do you think you've felt this? This much larger sense of lightness because you met
Ryan Loftus 19:39
I think before we met, I'd sort of forgiven him within myself. And the idea of ethics. I think maybe that's that's part of the process, too, is to initially sort of work that forgiveness within your mind. Maybe more It worked for me. And then that added layer was then the next step logically was to go meet him, I guess. But there was definitely, yeah, doing it in person was a lot more powerful as it as you'd imagine.
Martin O'Toole 20:20
Yeah, Ken, how did you take it?
Ryan Loftus 20:22
How did he take it?
Martin O'Toole 20:23
Yeah, what was his What was his response to, to being forgiven?
Ryan Loftus 20:28
I think he, he understood, he understood where I think and I think he knew all along. That was that was how I felt. But he, I didn't know maybe didn't know how to talk about it or didn't know how to sort of breach the subject. That's not to say that he didn't try and get in touch with me over those years that I didn't see it. And he did. Of which I just completely, sort of blanked him, which was actually doing me maybe more harm, to try and sort of just block something out of your life completely is. It's unnatural,
Martin O'Toole 21:06
well, unnatural, and suddenly natural to many of us. I think that's because we're in fight or flight. And I think, especially if, if we've had trauma happened to us in in our early formative years as well, then we might have a different SKU on how to deal with emotions, our emotional development might be different to others. I can certainly relate because I was, I was emotionally underdeveloped for a great many years. Yeah, but I guess from the sounds of it, it was welcome. You're forgiven. Very welcome.
Ryan Loftus 21:41
Very welcome. I think it always is gonna be I think forgiveness is always welcome to you it has to be done when it's Well, I don't know, maybe that's the maybe that's maybe the point of this conversation is that I think I always thought maybe before that you sort of you forgive someone when you're ready to forgive them. And you, you do that appropriate? Yeah, no evaluation in your mind about how you feel about the situation on what, you know, whether they're worth, whether whether I can, whether I can give this person my forgiveness. Sure.
Martin O'Toole 22:17
But I, I think there are, I think there are plenty of other situations where I know there are plenty of other situations where the two parties, one, on the one hand, the victim will call them, for argument's sake, is incapable of forgiving. They say things like I can never forgive this, or I'll never heal from that, or they don't deserve my forgiveness. And then, of course, the the other party who we should call the perpetrator actually might not want forgiveness, because they might feel justified in their actions.
Ryan Loftus 23:00
In which case, you've got a stalemate.
Martin O'Toole 23:02
You have right? Well, I think you have but But I suppose then that's where there's an interesting conversation and and thought to be had. Because I'm very pleased to hear your dad was was was really hanging out for forgiveness. And that sounds like a real wonderful reconnection. And I can imagine that was a really beautiful experience for both of you. In the case of of this chap, who, who blinded me this chap called James, I would suspect he still feels justified in his actions and, and doesn't want forgiveness. And I actually wrote an article about this, or I don't know if maybe a couple of years ago it was after I'd actually forgiven James and, and dad had this incredible experience and as you said, this sudden, lightness and unburdening a clearance, which, funnily enough makes space for more lovely stuff. And I wanted to share it. And during the research for the article, I came across this wonderful quote from the Buddha, which I'd like to share with you. The Buddha said, holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else. You were the one who gets burned. Lovely stuff, right? He knew a thing or two, that butter chapter. But interestingly plays right into your approach to forgiveness at the very beginning of your tail. So you'd, you'd already realise that actually, the forgiveness was a thing that you had to do to make you feel better and And that of course goes it's contrasting to many other people's feelings who are holding on to these. These emotions, this anger, this inability to let go. And so you did you sell for a tremendous favour in that regard. It's actually Eckhart Tolle Have you read the power of now?
Ryan Loftus 25:29
I have, yeah. It's, it's one of my mum's, she, she often reads, just to come back to his teachings. Basically.
Martin O'Toole 25:42
He's a, he's a bit of a wizard. And I'm, I'm a huge fan of Eckhart Tolle and his perspective because he manages to, to articulate a great many things about the human condition, and the battle between ego and consciousness, and he does it very pragmatically, which I find incredibly helpful.
Ryan Loftus 26:04
It's made me your word system, and it made me think, I wonder when, with forgiveness, whether whether it helps to be able to, I'm not sure if I briefly touched on this earlier, but whether it helps to be able to understand where the actions to whether negative actions towards you work or the perceived negative actions towards you, or wrongdoing, where that came from,
Martin O'Toole 26:36
as in what inspired the action.
Ryan Loftus 26:40
And whether you can kind of, you can see in someone else's character, whether a particular life event or something, has then in turn meant that they did something that in turn has affected you in a wrongful way. And whether looking at that root cause or, or, or another cause can help to, to inspire forgiveness,
Martin O'Toole 27:05
maybe, I suspect, so I think that would be a good route to take to, to help to understand him. Another route would would be to try to remind ourselves that we are all human, we are all connected. We are all in a sense, the same, but different. And by that rationale, we're all capable of doing wrong things. Just as we're capable of doing right things, we're all capable of making mistakes. We're all capable of doing things selfishly, or not considering someone else's opinion or, or actually their feelings. And I think, certainly, from my perspective, one of my learnings in this regard was understanding that and realising how can I possibly judge anyone else for doing something or thinking something or saying something? When I've probably done said, or thought that thing at some point in my life as well,
Ryan Loftus 28:18
that interesting word, you just use that selfish the selfishness idea. And it's made me think back to the story that you open this with about your about folding the agency down. And in that position, you may be outwardly for people who couldn't understand maybe what you were going through on a deeper level on an on an emotional level, that would be seen as very selfish. Because there were a lot of people maybe who who thought they were dependent on you. And and your decision to do something may have come across in that way when actually it was really crucial to your survival. Exactly. So I think there's an interesting, something between selfishness and forgiveness, because often you would think maybe, maybe not often, but in some occasions, you would think that someone is being selfish. And then that would, they would need your or they would need your forgiveness for that
Martin O'Toole 29:31
act. Yeah. Well, every one we come across is going through something, aren't they? And we have no idea what they're going through. We see the tip of the iceberg of everyone's emotions, don't we? And depending on how guarded we are, how, how many masks we are wearing to pretend that we are something that we are not how clever we are at at hiding. are emotional distress. It's people might never know that you are five minutes from suicide, they might never know that you're around the corner from a mental breakdown, or a great many other things that that could be causes for someone's behaviour that, as you say to one party seems selfish, but actually, there's a there's a whole backstory. I think that's really the point isn't it? When when it comes to linking forgiveness with judgement, I think that's quite a helpful place to play, because you can then be more present. And ask yourself, What, okay, that person's behaviour has made me feel like this, I'm angry, I'm upset, whatever it is, however, what's going on with that person? What's happened, what's happening in their life right now? What might be happening? Now, of course, Angular might overtake and say, I don't care. I don't care what's going on in their life, what they've done is absolutely unacceptable. And it cost them then we're back to the victim status, aren't we? I'll never get over this. I'll never forgive them. Why should I forgive them. But if we can just take a moment, and actually be present, be in the now as Eckhart Tolle says, then we might actually stand a chance of, of processing some understanding through awareness of what's going on for that other person. Now, don't get me wrong. There are some people who do things that well, there's some horrible crimes occurring on the planet, and some horrible things happening to people who, who didn't ask for it in there in the wrong place at the wrong time. And it's very difficult if you're a victim of a, let's say, a heinous crime in that regard to perhaps to grasp what you and I are saying, although the same rationale does apply. If someone is assaulting someone or someone's committing a crime, more often than not, there is a driver behind that. And it might be now it might be financial, it might be desperation, linked to her to a drug habit, for example, or that crime, that that hideous thing that they're doing, might well date back to their first few years on this planet. And them being assaulted them being traumatised, and then macaws embodying that trauma, and then taking it out, unfortunately, on those around them, and another unsuspecting victims, obviously, so it's a lot more difficult for us to forgive hideous events. When I suppose from my perspective, it was, this was really where, where the epiphany came for me, it was, it was actually in understanding the definition of the word forgiveness.
Ryan Loftus 33:14
What is the definition of forgiveness these days?
Martin O'Toole 33:18
Well, I think the definition of forgiveness these days is the same one that I hit you up with it, to stop feeling angry with someone who has done something to harm, annoy, or upset you to stop feeling angry with yourself. forgive somebody yourself for something for doing something. Now, when I forensically examined the definition of forgiveness, there were there was a glaring message to me. And it was it was it was right there in a definition, to stop feeling angry with something who has done something to harm a lawyer upset you to stop feeling angry with yourself to stop feeling. Now, obviously, I'm not suggesting that we all just stop feeling that's impossible isn't. But the point isn't, it's back to what the Buddha was saying. If you are holding on to this whole thing, because it's back to what you said as well, you we are holding on to our experience of an event. Then, actually, the person who caused the problem, even if they're aware or not aware that they've caused this problem for you, this feeling for you, and they've gone off into the sunset, who's suffering? Who are you helping? And who are you hurting? And actually, it says, isn't it? We're just holding on to this thing. And that I found incredibly powerful as a as a beginning for my understanding of how to forgive James for blinding me.
Ryan Loftus 34:54
Yeah, no, absolutely. And also the I mean, how long did Take of interest for you to do that, in that situation with him
Martin O'Toole 35:10
for six years Yeah. It was six years, no five years.
Ryan Loftus 35:19
Did you ever see that? Would you? Did you see him in person? Or did you
Martin O'Toole 35:23
know I never saw him. So he was off, he was in England and I went to went off to live in Bali. And, and obviously spent two years just doing the work doing the series work. So I went inwards. And I learned an awful lot of wonderful techniques and methodologies to to help me learn to love myself and to help me find inner peace. Well, it was, it was at that point that I realised that this chap was never going to apologise, he was never going to get in touch with me and say, Hey, how's it going? I'm sorry, I blinded you. And all the while I was holding on to this, this physical and mental, emotional pain, because my I was still really causing a lot of bother. And I realised I had to do it myself. If I had to, if I wanted to move on, I had to just let go.
Ryan Loftus 36:25
I mean, there's all kinds of different forgiveness, it feels, I mean, even the two examples that we've given a quite unique Well, I guess each case is unique. But there's, there's quite a big difference. I think in even our two cases, you know, you're holding a physical marker from that event. Whereas others can be emotional, psychological law. And it made me think just a minute ago, when you read out that definition of forgiveness. And you also said about forgiving ourselves, which also doesn't really get a lot of airtime does it? That idea. Or at least I don't think it does, as much as the idea of forgiving other people, you know, it's always that, that that's our, our focus is to forgive others, maybe. And and can almost sometimes overlook that, that the idea of forgiving ourselves for something. Or forgiving ourselves from a time in our lives. Like, you know, Martin V. V. 1.0. And I was wondering whether you need forgiven him or felt like you needed to forgive him?
Martin O'Toole 37:49
That's a wonderful question. And the answer is, yes. I actually forgive Martin version 1.0 First, and they do. I do suspect that it was it was in learning to love and forgive myself. That I was then able to forgive James because I think I was holding on to so much so much anger, so much frustration, so much bitterness, 42 years worth of insanity, in so many ways. disappointment with myself, for so many things, shame, as well, shame for, for a lot of my previous behaviour. And it was actually on a silent retreat. I was doing a silent meditation for seven days, not It's not obviously, a seven day meditation, you get breaks. But but it was an incredibly intense process. Where, at the at the on the last day we were invited to turn this love onto ourselves. This this loving energy is loving it. It's called the loving kindness meditation, which we were sending out to the world for the first six days. And on the last day, we were invited to turn it back on ourselves. And it was the most cathartic experience ever. Just when I gave myself an invisible hug and broke down, sobbing. I was just sobbing for a 45 minute meditation. What began as tears of sadness, then very quickly transformed into tears of joy. Because I I felt my heart open and then opening my heart to myself. Then I suddenly realised Wowzers trousers. I've got the opportunity here to open my heart to anybody.
Ryan Loftus 39:52
Yeah, that sounds powerful. Power like a visceral In motion,
Martin O'Toole 40:00
it was, it was it was, it was it was kinda like a little explosion, but a really lovely one. And it completely lovely explosion. It completely reframed my, my perspective on so many things, it enabled me to understand that no, one person's truth is the truth, for example, that I had to now see everyone else's perspective and understand that everybody we meet, it doesn't matter who it is, it may be somebody that does passing you in the street, and they bang into you, and they've got a face like thunder and, and actually you think, wow, and they look like they're gonna hit you. And, of course, then we take, we take that under we and we were ready, we're already offended, we might be upset, we might be frightened even. But actually, we don't know what's happening to that person, that person might just have been told that the father died and they were rushing off to to make the arrangements. So it did it genuinely did open up my my mind and heart.
Ryan Loftus 41:08
And I wonder, then, because I think we've had conversations about this before, but how that then almost makes us think about asking others for forgiveness, maybe as like a sort of, you know, to bring a trifecta of, you know, we forgive us, we forgive others, we forgive ourselves. And then there's, there's asking others for forgiveness sometimes after those moments of realising perhaps that. Well, just everything you were saying, and then going back into those parts of our lives where we feel like we might have wronged someone and an understanding that and then we're just kind of apologising, basically, for something that you maybe thought you'd never apologise for. But after those little explosions, having that almost encouraging, explosive encouragement to ask for forgiveness. Yeah, in certain situations, because I remember you and we'd spoken about Martin V. V. One, and how you would reach out to certain people, I think, to apologise,
Martin O'Toole 42:26
predominantly, yes, yeah. And I've actually been doing that for a number of years now. The first, the first wave of those apologies. Were actually way back when I was in London. It was it actually even before I met you, and I reached out to my former business partner, who's an incredible bloke called Don, and he's in Leeds, in the UK. And Don was in London for some meetings, and we he agreed to meet me. And I think he was, I think he was obviously trying to work out what was going on. And we sat down with a pint of beer each and the first thing he said to me was, Are you dying? And he said, Well, there's a, there's a rumour going around Leeds, that you've got cancer. So why on earth? Is there a rumour going around? Lisa, I have cancer? Well, because you called contacting everybody and apologising to the ironic given the nature of this conversation, right? Because there's like, No, me. It's not a deathbed regret that I'm trying to clear up No, not dying at all. It's safe to say that I, I have begun the very slow and arduous and indeed painful process of, of Self Realisation. And there are there's a long list of people to whom I wish to apologise, and you're high on that list.
Ryan Loftus 43:57
My Name Is Earl style.
Martin O'Toole 44:00
Great share, wasn't it? I forgot about that
Ryan Loftus 44:02
was good. They really? Yeah, they really nailed it.
Martin O'Toole 44:05
Yeah. So Don was one of those people who actually, God love the man, he really, you accepted it wholeheartedly. completely and utterly forgave me. And I probably apologise over the over the course of a couple of years. And I remember I was I was on the beach in Bali, maybe a couple of years ago. And I'd had an incredibly profound experience through meditation, and I got back in touch with and I said, Look, I just, I really, really need to apologise to you, I now see your perspective and in everything that went wrong, and I understand they see me for who I really was, and I see this, this, this wounded inner child who was causing all of these problems, who, who was frankly incapable of communicating his emotions. And so I I just want to say I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry. Annie sent me a message of access something like For fuck sake, will you stop apologising? For gave you a long time ago. But listen, you know, it looks like you're in a really good place. I'm in a really good place. You and I are in a really good place together. It's absolutely fine. But please don't apologise again. It makes it's awkward or something like that, you know, he was joking, obviously. But But yeah, that's a long a long winded way of saying, Yeah, I actually I did do that. And I've been going through that process. For a number of years, I think I'm done. Now, I actually I made a couple of attempts actually, just a couple of months ago to a couple of people who used to be very good friends, who both of which both of whom I wronged and one of them shut me down. And the other one completely ignored me. Which, which was, of course, absolutely fine as well. That's, that's if they want to hold on to it. It's up to them. It's kind of, you know, all I can do is say, look, I want to make amends. I've I realised what I did I not offering any mitigating argument or defence, I just want you to know that I realised now what I did. And I feel as a result of that realisation that you deserve an apology. And actually, that's all you can do, I think, you know, the, actually, as part of the 12 steps programme is making amends, I think is Step eight or Step nine, and it's a real big deal. You're not supposed to just leap into it, which is why it's quite far on into the programme. But actually, Russell Brand, wrote a book called recovery where he talks about this, and I certainly don't wish to steal Russell Brand concept here. However, I certainly came to this conclusion as well, having analysed the 12 steps, and that is, you know, what, regardless of whether or not you have a drink or drug problem, everyone on this planet could do with going through the 12 steps. programme. Yes, it's common sense. And it's it's good mental health work for yourself. And for those around you.
Ryan Loftus 47:17
Yeah, there's someone in my life at the moment who's, who's on his way through that. And we were speaking recently about that, like it, was it step seven or eight, about going back through these people? And yeah, making amends, which I would imagine to be incredibly diff difficult. Yeah, because you're also all of those feelings are, again, coming back to Cymatics. This, they're in the these experiences are kind of coming up. And you're feeling them. So it's, it's really not easy, but incredibly satisfying. And regardless of whether, I mean, again, coming back to whether someone is going to hold on to that, I mean, I guess that is one of one of the themes, maybe in this podcast, but you had, you would approach someone and they they kind of reboot it basically review. And I had a similar experience a while back now, but I got back in touch with a sort of ex ex, ex girlfriend or girlfriend from quite a while ago, who I who I really felt I needed to apologise to in a way that I hadn't done before. After having a realisation and, and the perspective is is a wonderful thing in in that instance, I think because to be able to get somebody else's perspective. Like you were saying earlier with your, with your experience, how you'd manage to sort of see it from their perspective. When I had that. I felt as though that was my my cue to then get in touch but it didn't feel as though it like if anything, it sort of felt the response felt a little prickly, maybe an a bit a bit kind of damning in a way, which I really didn't expect. And it and it was kind of a more of like, well, yeah, I mean, these were, you know, I'm paraphrasing now, but the kind of thing was, well, you should be sorry, basically, which again, is completely fine. And whatever the response, even if there was no response that would be fine, because I've said what I needed to say but it's It can be that yeah, you've got varying degrees of whether someone? Well, that's where someone accepts your apology, I guess. Yeah. Which is completely up to them? Well, it
Martin O'Toole 50:09
is. And she, you make a wonderful point because ultimately, this whole dance, in my opinion, it really comes down to choice. We have the choice to, when we're faced with an event, whatever that event is, of course, there's a, there's a, depending on whose perspective you observe, it's a good event, or it's a bad event. But whatever the event, we have a choice and the choices to either ask ourselves, why is this happening to me? Or if we really can, through an exercise of awareness, flip the script and ask ourselves, what is this teaching me? Then we have an opportunity to completely and utterly reframe that event. And I'm fully aware that what I'm saying sounds a little bit too simple, for many, and I'm also fully aware that we as a species are, frankly addicted to suffering. We just are the nature of, of the ego, and detachment. So it isn't that easy. by a country mile. However, I can absolutely attest to the fact sitting here right now in November 2021. In spite of all the madness, that's the I've co created all the suffering that I've co created. All of the drama that I've co created. I can now wholeheartedly say that when an event occurs, yeah, of course, I might still have a moment of frustration or anger or upset, I'm human. But I can now very quickly recenter in and ask myself, Okay, what's the lesson here, then? That in itself is is can be fun times, because sometimes you can go can't see the lesson. Where is the damn lesson? Not seeing the lesson. I'm just seeing whatever it is, but but but I can absolutely assure anybody who might be interested to listen, that there is a lesson in all of it.
Ryan Loftus 52:39
Yeah, and even in some ways, I found when, on a personal level, even to understand is there a lesson in if someone has has done something to me whether that lesson would then be in turn something so rudimentary is to, you know, do I want them? Would I like them in my life? Or do they want me in their life or to be able to? You know, think about it like that sometimes can even be quite helpful, I find?
Martin O'Toole 53:11
Yeah, well, I think that's a great point. Because ultimately, sometimes people do things that that they face you with an opportunity, again, a choice. And actually, more often than not, when you see somebody doing something, or saying something or behaving in a certain way that that that you deem is not good for you. I think you said this, right at the beginning of that conversation, no longer serves me or doesn't serve me at all across, you're being presented with a wonderful opportunity to check out and break away from that toxic relationship. Funnily enough, Tupac said a pretty cool thing about forgiveness. Just because you lost me as a friend doesn't mean you gain me as an enemy. And bigger than that, I still want to see you eat. Just not at my table. Well, legend,
Ryan Loftus 54:03
yeah, that's brilliant. That the air and I remember hearing that and actually, it kind of, like feeds in to expand on that a little bit more of commerce I was literally having last night or the night before, with my friend, Chelsea, and we were saying that there is there is a state in between liking someone and disliking someone. It's not that binary, which I think maybe Tupac was kind of getting is that, you know, I'm just I don't dislike you. And I don't put maybe particularly like you at this point. But that doesn't mean that you know, there's any ill feeling or where you can exist in a state that is neither liking or disliking. There's almost like an indifference. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 54:50
Yeah. Well, I think he's saying that but I also think he I think he might have also been saying when he said I'm bigger than that. I don't know. Perhaps he was. You were saying I'm not going to I'm not going to carry negative thoughts about you. I'm not holding on to a hot stone. So I'm letting the I'm letting you go. So that that means our our contract if you like is ended, our energetic tie has been cut that said, I don't wish ill for you. I don't want to see you staff. But you're not sitting in my table for dinner things. And I totally vibe with that. Certainly, we're certainly where I got to now.
Ryan Loftus 55:33
The idea of him using Tintin's as a phrase
Martin O'Toole 55:37
he could say, I'm not sure to pack would say didn't didn't he was a bit too cool for that. God rest his soul but but I think there's a lot to be said for being able to get to that point. I've got to that place now where I can say, You know what, okay, we do not resonate. So love and light to you. I wish you all the best. I certainly don't wish any ill will or any any ill feeling for you. But at the same time, I can't have you in my life because your toxicity affects me. So I'm not judging you for for your behaviour. Because I see some of the reasons why you do it. I might actually be able to relate perfectly to your behaviour because I used to do those things or I used to say those things. So I'm certainly not going to judge you. I'm not going to judge you. But I definitely can't have you in my space. And I think that's a pretty grown up way of being able to, to sever toxic ties. that keep you well, that keep you happy and keep you healthy.
Ryan Loftus 56:46
And keep you off to Tupac's dinner table wonder what may be happening. Ham, egg and chips
Martin O'Toole 56:55
It's just no I've seen like barbecue ribs. I don't know why. I mean, I don't know. I don't know anything about packing in reality. Yeah, but I was wondering what to pack we would be eating at that particular table. For any listeners who fancy themselves as aficionados of to pack please do get in touch and tell us what to pack would likely regularly after dinner attendance. Well, I've very much enjoyed our little chinwag Ryan.
Ryan Loftus 57:30
It's been brilliant. Thanks for having me on.
Martin O'Toole 57:33
And thanks for coming in, mate. Yeah, it's been good to get to have that chat. And I suspect if you enjoyed yourself, we we should do it a bit more often.
Ryan Loftus 57:43
I think that would that's I could see us maybe delving into what other historical figures might be eating of an evening. Amongst other sort of, you know, psychological and spiritual matters. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 58:03
Yeah, we could, we could really do a deep dive into what they had for dessert at the Last Supper. But I'm sure we could cover some more profundities surrounding it or not limited to know, up to but not limited to. Excellent. Well, I'm gonna let you go.
Ryan Loftus 58:25
Thank you very much. Well, enjoy your day Martin and I've Yeah, it's been really nice to chat to you. And hopefully, I'll speak to you soon.
Martin O'Toole 58:33
You will. Thanks for coming on the show. You've been a wonderful guest. Thanks, Martin.
