SUMMARY KEYWORDS
happiness, people, talking, realise, podcast, thought, book, human, feel, conversation, steps, word, person, life, happy, called, point, nature, moment, meditation
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Jake Mackenzie
Martin O'Toole 00:28
So, last time you and I spoke, we talked about recovery, didn't we?
Jake Mackenzie 00:37
I think that was a bulk of our conversation.
Martin O'Toole 00:39
It was a lump with
Jake Mackenzie 00:40
that was a lot of derivatives from that particular subject.
Martin O'Toole 00:43
Yeah, well, it's a it's a big subject to discuss and unpack,
Jake Mackenzie 00:47
neverending subject
Martin O'Toole 00:48
quite well. And so today, I wondered how you would feel about helping me unpack one of the worlds or one of life's greatest mysteries, in under an hour.
Jake Mackenzie 01:00
I'm shivering in anticipation.
Martin O'Toole 01:02
Well, I thought we might discuss the meaning of happiness. And I'll tell you for why. I was talking to a man very, very sweet man, a beautiful soul in his 80s for one of our recent episodes, and he said, that he felt that he might be one of the unhappiest men in all of creation. So, I tried to talk to him about happiness. And we happened upon of course, the idea that there are many different perspectives of what happiness is, this chapter master meditator is a farmer and a meditator was not farmer anymore in 83, I don't think maybe does still do some farm stuff. So he is very contemplative and aware, and spends a great deal of time. Meditating enjoys his silence, but he still questioned the idea of happiness. And then I realised we've got this podcast called How to die happy. And I don't think we've actually touched on this subject enough just yet. And then I thought, right, who can I talk to, you can have a chinwag about happiness with and then the cosmic whales slash cosmic sage surfer. Jake McKenzie popped into my head.
Jake Mackenzie 02:23
I appreciate the thought.
Martin O'Toole 02:24
So thanks for having me.
Jake Mackenzie 02:26
Thanks for having me. You've come in and set up quite an extraordinary setup here in my office.
Martin O'Toole 02:33
Well, that's why that's why I'm thanking you for having me. I appreciate it can be rather interruptive. Where on earth do we begin a discussion about happiness?
Jake Mackenzie 02:43
Good question. I mean, the first thing that popped into my mind is the idea that Burma as a country has a National Happiness Index.
Martin O'Toole 02:55
What
Jake Mackenzie 02:55
Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 02:56
I didn't know this.
Jake Mackenzie 02:56
Yep. So they don't base they don't base the level of success on the country on the GDP. Or how many tourist dollars come into the coffers, but on the general happiness of the people. Now I'm sure there's warts there as well. Yeah, cuz we're humans,
Martin O'Toole 03:13
no doubt.
Jake Mackenzie 03:14
But I instantly go there. And then I go to the Buddhist philosophy, you know, of life is suffering. You know, and then Buddha talks about how to alleviate the suffering. The Four Noble Truths, which I'm not going to quote right now, because I can't remember them how to relate. I've got the written down. And so Burma or not Burma, Bhutan, I said Burma or Bhutan,
Martin O'Toole 03:40
you said Burma,
Jake Mackenzie 03:41
I meant Bhutan, excuse me, okay. And for the not Burma at this point in time, big neural, but Bhutan
Martin O'Toole 03:48
and for the listeners who aren't particularly geographically educated, where is Bhutan?
Jake Mackenzie 03:56
It is in the Himalayas. It is northeastern India. I think it borders China, Sikkim, Assam and Meghalaya. And it's also a mountain kingdom, Buddhist. I think they follow a specific type of Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism, I think is prevalent there as well. So yeah, Himalayas, Eastern.
Martin O'Toole 04:22
Okay,
Jake Mackenzie 04:23
beautiful country,which I haven't I haven't ever been to, but it is on my list of countries to visit
Martin O'Toole 04:28
and actually, not that I wish to digression or divert what you're about to tell me. But I was listening to a podcast with Joe Rogan and Sadhguru the other day, right Sadhguru was talking about a mountain called calash.
Jake Mackenzie 04:42
Eyelashe
Martin O'Toole 04:42
eyelash. Yes, you are you do you know anything about that
Jake Mackenzie 04:45
place? You've been there? I have not been there. Well,
Martin O'Toole 04:47
he was he was saying he's had some inner sacred, credible, otherworldly entity experiences on the top of that mountain. Yeah, around 230 in the morning.
Jake Mackenzie 04:59
And then he also talked about that a mountain I believe in Wyoming yells peak or whatever it's called weather Close Encounters of the Third Kind was,
Martin O'Toole 05:06
which is obviously no coincidence now not in the stand.
Jake Mackenzie 05:10
But yeah, Kailash is a very sacred mountain. The Buddhists and Hindus it's were not mirage or Shiva resides and dances on top of Kailash. It's a very sacred mountain and it's got Lake Manish wire at the base of it. And it's, you know, it's like Mecca. Yeah. How the hajis go to Mecca at least once in their lifetime. Yeah, that in essence, they say it's Kalash, with Buddhists and Hindus. I would love to go there. Well, I grew up very big calling to go there too.
Martin O'Toole 05:37
Same here. Yeah, let's I think we should do a little drifter pilgrimage, or drift up there to Kerala. Slowly but surely. Anyway, I digress. But it's a conversation. That's what happens. So you were telling me about the happiness index of Bhutan?
Jake Mackenzie 05:53
Yeah, I just I think that's a starting point on some levels of, you know, the, so from a national perspective, that the kingdom of Bhutan, putting their citizens Happiness Index, first and foremost, and supposedly, they are the happiest country on the planet. So we take it from the larger perspective, what does that mean? And then instantly, I think about that, quote, unquote, the Native American quote about, you know, man, strives for this, and that, you know, once more possessions and once more renowned and fame and fortune. And, you know, the, when the Americans first came to, to, or the settlers first came to America, the Indians were, like, living not all tribes, but many more symbiotically with nature, you know, they were, it would only catch what they needed. They were fed, they were housed, they respected their environment, they were, you know, used the resources at their disposal and then moved on. So they weren't impacted on the on such. Now, obviously, it's a different story for today, because there's so many humans, but the quote goes something along the lines of You know, and you're striving for more and more, but the simpler lifestyle that we had, that you've replaced, was a much happier, you know, life. Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 07:23
yeah. Yeah. Well, I, that's wisdom, isn't it? And it's truth. I was thinking about my pursuit of happiness before this conversation. And I don't mean, in recent times, I mean, as an alcoholic and drug addict, workaholic and sex Holic and, you know, all the holics
Jake Mackenzie 07:44
a lot of it all into one
Martin O'Toole 07:48
that tram smash. And I suppose, chasing the idea of happiness, while actually running away from my sadness, as it transpires. But this was this was the nature of this conversation I was having with this chap, John, that so many people see happiness as, as a material, or a list of material gains, as milestones, you know, destinations, I've got to get to that destination. I can't do this until I do that. And then once I've done that, I'm going to go on to that I'm going to go on to that. And of course, it occurred to me that we spend, or many of us spend so much time focused on the destination, never just taking the journey
Jake Mackenzie 08:30
being present. And being here now.
Martin O'Toole 08:33
Right. And that was tick, not Han, who recently died. Bless him who said, happiness, there is no way to happiness. Happiness is the way that guy knew a few things.
Jake Mackenzie 08:49
Yeah, yeah, that's nice.
Martin O'Toole 08:50
Yeah. So I suppose the conversation then becomes this the meaning of happiness, about the about focusing on the journey, rather than the destination? Is that what happiness is,
Jake Mackenzie 09:05
you know, I was I was sent a video this morning from a friend and it was a video of, of our mutual friend Tommy, who passed away last year. And he was playing guitar. In drifter. One night, he was playing I think Donovan Franken rider song. I won't try and sing it right now. And he was just singing it. And he was being himself completely himself, because that's who he was. He was, you know, just a really humble dude. He just I think he got invited up onto the stage. And the guy was like, Can you play? He's like, Yeah, I play a little bit of rhythm guitar, and he ended up singing a couple of songs. They were killer. And I just started thinking about Tommy, and about him passing away. And how much of a good friend he was. And then us talking about thinking about what a good friend is and And he was always willing to give up his time, no matter what. And he was also very generous with his skill sets. You know, he's amazing photographer, and he always willing to take photos with the kids or with a lot of trips, you know what I mean? And he was a very generous human. And although it's not necessarily the topic of happiness, because we're going to dive deep into that, I was just current for me, because what is a good friend? You know, that ties into the subject? How will you have service to people around you? Because I think that has, that's the big secret actually is like, are you? What are you doing for other people? Yeah. Because when we get out of self, and out of our little machinations in our mind, and our agendas, and our, you know, the plans that we have, and start thinking about other people. I think that is a part of the bigger formula for happiness. Yeah. You know, and that ties in what you're saying to Martin about being obsessive about accumulating external stimulation. You know, and I think it's been proven, certainly to myself, you know, I love surfboards, and I'll get a new circle. And I love it. And I'll really appreciate the tool. And it's a tool to into to enjoyment and happiness, but it is not happiness. It's like the finger pointing at the moon. You know, the real happiness I get from something like that is sharing waves with friends. And even prior to that, and kids and my family, right, but part of that is being in the right headspace to really appreciate being present vailable for the for those moments. And, you know, I struggle with that for sure. Like, I'm human, and we all do, but being present, being available. And then you start getting more abstract, you know, yeah, you can start really going down that road. It's like, okay, not not being triggered by the traumas, and not having the expectations, all of that stuff that adds to us being out of the present moment,
Martin O'Toole 12:20
the fractal facets of happiness
Jake Mackenzie 12:23
me out of the present moment. Right. And you are the present moments like, yeah, so could you just go back to the Tommy definitely the case would be he was giving, giving and generous of his time and his his skills and of his heart. So, you know, talking about recovery, once again, in the light, you know, that for me, that's kind of my spiritual foundation of the 12 steps talking about, you know, being of service and giving back what was given freely to you? Yeah, without renumeration. You know, and for the right reasons, whatever that means, you know, I mean, with the right intention, maybe that's probably the better word. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's all kind of there's a few points there, right.
Martin O'Toole 13:15
Well, there are, but perhaps we can train on pick them because something you said that reminded me of Alan Watts, I mentioned this before on the show, because of course, the show's called How to die happy. So expect we have touched on this, here in there. But he wrote a book called The meaning of happiness, which may or may not have bought from your shop, I think we did have that title. And he, that wasn't his original title for the book. The original title that he wrote for the book was the anatomy of acceptance. And the publisher, obviously didn't think it was gonna sell. Nobody was nobody wants to accept anything you're talking about. This isn't going to sell any books. So they renamed it but that got me when I read that if you've read you've read what somebody Yeah, but I've read some what Yeah, yeah, I that book, and you presumably heard him love Him speak because I have to say it was a much better. I don't know, that's not the right word. He was a much more accessible orator to me than he was a writer. I think sometimes I get lost in his in the incredibly clever way in which he wishes to dissect something because he really goes into it, doesn't he? But I really enjoyed the book. But the main thing that stuck with me was that the idea of acceptance and and the idea that we don't accept a great many of us don't even really understand the concept of it. Not not on a It's not when you start talking about presence, genuine presence, genuine mindfulness, right. And the idea sprung in me and I don't know when this was it was probably about the same time I was I was grasping the concept of impermanence, which all of which wasn't all that long ago, by the way, a couple of years ago, three years ago, something like that. When my dog died, and in learning to accept that everything was impermanent, I developed a new sense of calm, peace. Peace, peace, peace with the world. That's quite a big thing to say, right? Don't get me wrong. I'm human to. Yeah, I know, you know, what's it all? Exactly. And I got that I got the temper that comes out every once in a while, especially on the Balinese roads. That's my that's my gig. Now. It's my mission is to learn to constantly try to just let it all go. So that's, that brings me happiness.
Jake Mackenzie 15:52
Yeah, I think that the the topic and title of the podcast how to die happy. The word die, in a sense, is taboo for many people. People don't like having that that word death in their psyche. But then you look at you're talking about impermanence, like, there are sex in India, let's say or, you know, who the college devotees who are constantly being reminded they drink out of skulls, yeah, etailers, Gaza, I'm getting a bit macabre here. But there is a purpose of this. And their reason is, we will die. There's no way around that one. You know, you might talk about these people in the Bible live for 1000s of years, or, you know, the Kings, the Melchizedek, whatever, okay. But the reality today is that we are not immortal, physically anyway. And that we will die. And so therefore, I think when you fully accept that, then there's a different bent on, like, you're talking about impermanence. And so the impairment of your dog dying, you know, with that framework of what am Why am I doing what really makes me happy? This is not the dress rehearsal. This is the real deal. What do I need to adjust? What do I really want to do? What do I really love? What do I really want to spend my time doing? To be happy?
Martin O'Toole 17:22
Nice. I like I like everything you just did there? Yeah. Do you think there's a process to that? And do you think there's a, obviously, we're all different? We all have to go at this the healing process in our own ways, right? Because we, we all got broken in different ways as well. But do you? Do you think there's a set process that one could define?
Jake Mackenzie 17:45
Have we met the nature of humanity? Right? We're also different. Yeah, that would have to say like, if you look at anyone who talks about passing over to the other side, and coming back, or having that white light experience, or dying on the operating table and being revived, maybe not all, but many people talk about this, this incredible wildlife expert white light experience, where they, they some people talk about hovering over their bodies. And you know, I didn't have that experience, but a similar thing where I had a motorcycle crash. And I had this really strong knowing that I could have left Yep, that there was like a portal there for me to leave. And it's a welcoming portal as well. That's the thing it was wasn't wasn't there was no fear there. You know, so you talk to people who've had that experience. And that is a profoundly life altering point in life, where the reality of like, Oh, God, there are no guarantees. I'm going to be alive tomorrow.
Martin O'Toole 18:46
But also, we're going to pop into a whole other territory now we're gonna crack open the worms about crack open a can of worms and discuss life. Worms, let's crack open some worms. Fast as I cracked worm, I because I've had the same thing I've had to situate my and now body experience just in in in the night once. That's a whole astral travel and as a kid, I think, and also as a young adult, but I had a near death experience. Same thing happened to me. And I think what that experience also does for one, not just presenting the the finiteness of it all, it also gives you some evidence that hang on a minute, there's life after death. And isn't it others something you know, actually, I'm not just my body. And I because we actually we're going to do an episode on near death experience. I've been talking to some some folks. And some they've all got phenomenal stories today.
Jake Mackenzie 19:38
I love hearing those stories,
Martin O'Toole 19:39
me too. But the lions will all of them 100% of these people. The lion's share of them, we're not lion's share and a lump of them were non believers. Atheists are not spiritual in any way, shape, or form. And then they've come together to join a forum to basically say, Whoa, what what happened there? Then, I mean, what did happen then because I'm pretty much guaranteed that I died slash almost died. So now I'm questioning the whole meaning of life.
Jake Mackenzie 20:08
Beautiful,
Martin O'Toole 20:09
right?
Jake Mackenzie 20:10
There's a fantastic book that I would recommend, I might even recommend it last time I was here. It's called many masters many lives. I don't think he did so many masters many lives. And I have happened to have it at the drifter bookstore in anytime.com, but it is brilliant in the sense that it comes from a very renowned doctor psychologists has all the PhD MBAs or that after his name, and he started researching through hypnosis, Ken became a hypnotherapist as well. These people who would regress to different lifetimes and they would would go there was one particular person who was super impressionable under hypnosis, hypnotic suggestion. And she went back to many, many different lifetimes and different bodies. And that in itself was fascinating. It's very hard to corroborate that there are certain ways to do it. But the really amazing thing was he the doctor started to experience with some of these people that he was regressing the in between states, when they weren't in body they were still disembodied or, or in spirit. Wow. And often times they would go after a lifetime. We'd go sit in this council of beings, call them whatever you want guardian angels or spirit guides, and reevaluate the lifetime
Martin O'Toole 21:38
a defrag interview, so totally like, Okay, how do you think that went? Yeah,
Jake Mackenzie 21:42
exactly. and then, even more like, down the rabbit hole. At some points, these really intelligent advanced beings would start speaking through the person on hypnosis, just giving a little bit of information to the doctor about the nature of the universe, or the nature of life.
Martin O'Toole 22:01
And this is all in his book.
Jake Mackenzie 22:02
It's all in this book, calorie bandit, those that's like the little golden nuggets in there because it's great. Yeah, it's it's reincarnation and the idea of karma and you know, checks and balances, and you reap what you sow. And it was in effect, you know, but then to go to the other dimension, where you many people report about seeing loved ones and friends greeting them as they're exiting or entering. And no fear and love and light and this incredible experience. But But specifically, familiar faces coming and greeting them. So this in itself takes a step further where they're like, actually gone to the next stage, after we pass on to this defrag session bit like here with very writer. Yeah, but it was pretty bright in here. Very advanced beings who are there in love and support. And that was the thing that was takeaway for me in the book. These beings were just like, emanating just positive vibrations and love.
Martin O'Toole 23:02
Were they familiar to the folks? So when they got put when they popped into this room and had this debriefing session, did they or did they know one another? Was he like room is a construct? Welcome back?
Jake Mackenzie 23:15
Yeah, you have to read the book.
Martin O'Toole 23:17
I gotta,
Jake Mackenzie 23:17
I don't remember the exact details. But that's what kind of clicked off for me, you know, just having this conversation. So back backing up again. So yeah, there we are. We're gonna die. We've, we've died before we're going to be reborn. Unless you have you know, your liberation and you don't even need Ranger comics. incarnate on this planet. And so how do we live? Are we really living the fullest? Are we living someone else's dreams? Are we doing what makes our heart sing? Follow your heart, right? Follow your bliss. So he said. So that's there in Okay, so what is that? What? That goes back to the question, What is happiness? Yeah, and that's to everyone, everyone's gonna have a different answer. I have a very distinct memory in my mind, of one of the happiest times in my memory. And that is in Sri Lanka. At this beautiful Point Break, I'm not going to say the name on the eastern side of the island, right next to a national park with my family and some friends, and we're just doing laps of this beach of this wave and particularly just just joyous like we are. I recollect the Sydney moment being just in an almost an exalted state of happiness. Just like content, bellies, full hearts for you know, surrounded by friends and smiles and all your needs met. And for me just watching all my kids And my wife and friends, or having an amazing time. I think of that as kind of like the pinnacle little memory and I've got a few of those, like, a lot of them revolve around being in the ocean for me
Martin O'Toole 25:13
you're a Waterman.
Jake Mackenzie 25:14
And so chasing happiness, right? That's the next thing.
Martin O'Toole 25:21
Well, it is but just unpacking what you said, Actually, you didn't have to chase that. Yeah, there was prayers being being present. It was actually the simplest of days with beautiful people who are close to you, the ocean and, and some daylight
Jake Mackenzie 25:38
and moments. This is a snapshot moments, you know,
Martin O'Toole 25:43
do you think? Do you think sobriety puts a better lens on moments like that?
Jake Mackenzie 25:54
For me, definitely.
Martin O'Toole 25:56
Me too.
Jake Mackenzie 25:57
Like, you know, I could quite easily I was in a country with his fair bit of hashish smoked a joint or whatever, you know what I mean? And for me, what it does is it kind of dulls my senses. Yeah. Okay, that's we're not we're talking about not necessarily sobriety. But it'd be the same thing about a beer or your ski shot. Whatever thing for me personally. Yeah, absolutely.
Martin O'Toole 26:17
Yeah, I agree. And I think I've had, I had many of what I thought were incredibly great, happy experiences as an alcoholic and cocaine snorter. Damned if I can remember any of them.
Jake Mackenzie 26:36
There you go. It's like, so it's, for me that was definitely rooted and real. And, you know, not fleeting. It was really it was profound. No, wasn't like doing a hit of acid and having these incredibly profound, like, cosmic visions and understandings then forgetting everything and not having a grounding with it. Yeah. Yeah, it was very much based in I don't want to say real, because what, who defines real but a very much a real experience of like, in communion with other people, and sharing energy with other people. Yeah. And, and being enjoy. And in the moment, because really, if I look at it, if I break it down, it's like, I was needing nothing. I had everything that I would need, and I was in my body in the moment, enjoying the light. And, you know, that the moment and people and that the fellowship,
Martin O'Toole 27:36
yeah, then that connection. And I think what you just said there is worth diving further into, and that is needing nothing, we've sort of come full circle, haven't we, in as much as, I don't know whether or not some people are just fortunate to have been born, never needed anything. Never went off on a particularly crazy path, hit rock bottom to then realise the true value of the simple things. And, and, and the value of minimalism, actually, you know, I'm going to use the word minimalism. Try saying that, and I remember when I, when I had a lot of stuff, you know, we spent years successful in business buying stuff, and I thought the stuff defined me and thought that furniture defined me in the art defined me in the watch, define me in the car in the house, you know, all of that stuff. Clothes, spent a lot money on clothes, when I came to live in Bali, and I was already a year sober, as, as we've discussed, and on another podcast, and what we're gonna do with all this stuff, so I ended up just selling it or giving it all away, which was actually an incredibly bizarre yet ultimately cathartic experience, letting go of, you know, things that I'd had for maybe 510 15 years things I've thought I really loved as well, you know, a lot of sporting gear and all that sort of thing. And in the end, there was just me a bagel and two bags. And then off, we popped to barley and got Telly Jake and that's that's that was a moment for me. It's a different kind of happiness. But it was the freedom, the sense of freedom, having cut all of these energetic ties to all of these, these things. And I was thinking about don't know why I was talking to somebody the other day, who would essentially said, or they were talking about Bali, I wish I wish I could go and live in Bali, you can well, I can't you know, I've got this and I've got that and I've got that. Okay, and I'm seeing the anchors, the energetic ties, and of course I'm not there's no judgement there because some people are just tied to stuff I get it. But at the same time, the more things that we tie ourselves to the less free we become. And certainly personally speaking, I realised how unhappy all of those things were making me So that's another aspect. Well, now we're talking about unhappiness. Is it? Is that an angle to come up? Is it better to talk about unhappiness in order to define happiness? I
Jake Mackenzie 30:11
I think that's the nature of it. The Yin and the Yang, without one is like, experiencing hell in spirituality, to realise that's not the direction you want to go in. And, and then going to the flip side and being like, Yeah, this is this is who and where I want to be. But yeah, that makes sense. To me. That's a great analogy, man. And I can relate, you know, it's definitely a case in this. This world we live in that there is so much emphasis put on accumulation. Yeah, I mean, I think we suffer less of it here in Bali. We do, you know, and I. But yeah, I would say happiness is very good discussion point. And we could probably, you know, depending on what kind of mood you're in, we could talk about unhappiness for let's do it, as long as like, it's clear, you know, it's like, so painful for me. I want to be able to put my head on my pillow at night, and sleep peacefully. And if I've said something, done something left something undone, needed to apologise, make an amends for that it's gonna get in the way of a good sleep. Can I look myself in the mirror? Can I look you in the eye? Can I look at Rent? Do I have any reason not to be able to walk down the street with my head up? You know, a free man. That's the question, right? And I think that's, in a sense, like, the 12 steps of recovery, talk about these 12 steps to get free to uncover discover, discard. It's almost like you need to, like you just said, process word and yeah, unburden and get rid of all that stuff. Which, yeah, which calcifies around us. And, you know, we're, we're trained and programmed to think that's what being a successful man is or not. I mean, I absolutely,
Martin O'Toole 32:05
yeah, it's I always resonates with me. But actually, you just you just hit back to a question I asked you earlier on. And actually, the 12 steps are a workable process. Yeah. We might have had this conversation on the last podcast we did with you. And incidentally, if you're enjoying anything that Jake has to say, at present, as much as I am, you want to check out episodes that was in the last quarter of season one, wasn't it? I can't Yeah, maybe 10 or 11. It was a great episode. But we episode on the beach. Yeah, yeah, the sound of the waves in the background. But I was talking about Russell Brand's book recovery. And I don't know if it was him that suggested it. Perhaps me suggested it after reading the book, but it occurred to me that all humans ought to do the 12 steps regardless of your sobriety scenario,
Jake Mackenzie 33:00
and then the wonderful thing about the 12 steps is it takes you back to helping other people told me that doesn't matter what your particular bent is or what your angle is in life. It goes back to that place of in essence 10 is take a daily inventory so basically be a wet be mindful Lebanon's have a practice of prayer meditation, be mindful, be present. And then 12 is help other people service so it's applicable to every single belief system and religion on the planet,
Martin O'Toole 33:35
isn't it and regardless of what you're consuming, can you can you just list out the others? Yeah, from one to one to 12
Jake Mackenzie 33:43
Yeah, yeah. So admitted we were powerless over place hold any word in a one alcohol drugs sex shopping, we events were powerless over and our lives become unmanageable came to be the power grid and ourselves could restore us to sanity made a decision to turn our will and our lives over the care of God as we understood him or her or whatever you want to you know,
Martin O'Toole 34:10
whatever you do in this day and age or your energy clarity,
Jake Mackenzie 34:13
yeah. What was that three or four or four or either searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves? Yeah, right so the house cleaning and that doesn't even mean sharing it yet you're just doing a thorough Shadow Work and honest inventory. medicine isn't shared with another person so yeah, basically shared your story on the spot because there's a lot to remember that's fine it's fine. It's just like you know getting the words in my mind became willing to sorry six is humbly ask him to remove our shortcomings. Sorry that seven six is became became willing to have God removed these defects of character, humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings. made a list of For persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them or continue to take personal inventory when we were wrong promptly admitted it. Having had a spiritual illness to have continued to participants was. So 11 is sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him until he had a spiritual awakening. As a result, these steps continued to practice principles offence, and essentially helping others to
Martin O'Toole 35:27
work with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, what, why aren't we all doing
Jake Mackenzie 35:32
it to God and ourselves the exact nature of our anyway, I'm thinking step five. Now, basically, step five, is sharing with someone. Step four. Yeah, because I admitted to God and another person the exact nature of our wrongs, that's what it is,
Martin O'Toole 35:47
which is spot on. So there is a process there, which I suppose we, many of us are following in different ways. You know, I didn't do the 12 steps, but I did retrospectively go back and do the exact done the internal stuff in a different way. Yeah, as you know, the external things I did feel like I needed to do. So I spent a great deal of time making amends. And we'll talk about that in a minute, actually, because I was wondering whether or not you ever stopped doing that. In terms of there being Sleeping Dogs, you know, actually, are you causing more damage by reaching out to people who, who you may have upset 20 years ago? And actually, do they
Jake Mackenzie 36:30
recommend such people except when to do so would injure them or others?
Martin O'Toole 36:33
Exactly. Andthen how do you know, how do you know that? You know, how do you know whether or not you are I suppose, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm a writer, so I wrote a lot of my amends, there were emails and that sort of thing. I was very, very careful to accept full responsibility for my behaviour, having done the shadow work, having seen that guy and realise what he did. But no, but provided no mitigating defence, which I think was the most important, but
Jake Mackenzie 37:04
I think there's a living amends portion of it. Some amends, you can never make, really, but you can you, you know, striving to be a better human. Yeah, yeah, repeating the same mistakes. And then there's the basic tax, if you want to call it the basic tax of recovery, of one of the fellowships, has very clear indications how to deal with individual situations. So there's actually a it's, there's guidelines, you can choose to follow you don't have to their suggestions, actually, yeah, that can save your life. So important suggestions
Martin O'Toole 37:37
that you might wish to check out
Jake Mackenzie 37:39
to engage with? Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 37:41
So there is a there is an opportunity for a process here. So I'm now going back to now, John, the chap I was talking to he's definitely not the the absolute target audience because this chap meditates for two hours a day. And he's you know, he's, he's, he's very connected to source. Yet he still feels that he was one of the most unhappy people are really, really interesting. I do. I know, we didn't quite crack it. We didn't miss just so many other beautiful things to discuss. But I find that really interesting because on the one hand, you are present, you understand you absolutely understand the epitome of presence and what it brings me this chapel talk about just watching a bird in the tree or, you know, the sheep in the field. And, you know, it's got an ASMR voice, by the way, you know, the auto Sensory Meridian Response device. I was in I was in a, I was in an altered state of consciousness doing the podcast with him because it had the headphones on. So even just in my ears, it was beautiful. I'll send it Yeah,
Jake Mackenzie 38:42
I would say that. The idea of mimicking others. So if you see someone who's happy, who intrinsically is a happy person, who emits you know, whatever you want to call it positive vibes on, you know, happiness. What do they do?
Martin O'Toole 39:00
Yeah, what are they eating?
Jake Mackenzie 39:01
What's their secret? Exactly? What are they eating? They can see, what are they consuming?
Martin O'Toole 39:07
Well, that's a good word.
Jake Mackenzie 39:08
Yeah, how they feed their mind.
Martin O'Toole 39:09
Absolutely. And their eyes and ears,
Jake Mackenzie 39:12
or lack of consumption. You look, I always would go back to this party line, because I think that's what it is. But I think it's rock solid. And I was listening to Joe Dispenza. talk the other day to have an abundance. Yeah. And he said twice in the in this talk about serving others. That's the key people and then he wander off and start talking about everything else and he come back. It's about being of service to others. And then he wander off and you know, that to me, I think is a very powerful way to get ourself out of my you know, so called problems and dramas and dramas when when the perspex To put on, and even. And, and I'm taught, even when I don't want to, especially when I don't want to like, I was listening to a girl the other day talking, she's a Russian girl from Moscow, in recovery, a longtime hardcore, Russian scene, and then she's talking about being in Moscow in the middle of winter, and being bummed out about something. And she spoke to her mentor, and they said, go and feed a homeless person. So she did, she went out to the streets, found a couple of homeless people, she's like, What do you want? She was like, pissed off. They're like, oh, we need some some credit for our phone, and, you know, maybe some medical stuff, shocking, I got a free and cheap wedding, even though she was begrudgingly. And afterwards, she felt bad, I felt the difference. And she was much more available and present, you know, when we I suppose that's part of it to the compassion and empathy, of those around us are putting in perspective, I am enough, I have enough. That doesn't stop the natural human of wanting more,
Martin O'Toole 41:07
no, it doesn't. But if you if you combine that with the ability to be present, and to check in to that, and this, that's the point, we'll probably get back to that in a second. But if you can check into presence, whenever you need to, then you can have that conversation. Okay. I don't know, when I when I first started meditating, it was a few years ago, actually. But I was still very new to it. And so you know, I had a lot, I had a lot of work to do. And I was still quite broken. And somebody talked to me about gratitude, gratitude, gratitude is not about that. And I had no concept of the concept of gratitude. And of course, fast forward to April 2022. And for me, it's all about gratitude. I mentioned Joe Dispenza. He does some wonderful guided meditations. And one of them, he expressly invites you through the meditation, to take a moment to put your hands on your own chest. Just take a moment to be grateful to yourself, for bringing yourself to this meditation for you bringing yourself to this present moment. And it's something I do many mornings actually that do prefer different types of meditations about it. He that the way he tackles that it's got Isochronic tunes as well. So you've got the right frequencies hitting you up, hopefully my heart every time you just get that beautiful, bursting feeling just from being grateful to thing, isn't it? Yeah.
Jake Mackenzie 42:38
It's attitude of gratitude. Yeah, I get a gratitude attitude, an attitude of gratitude. I
Martin O'Toole 42:43
wonder whether it's, I wondered whether or not that was a utility. You know, we like to talk about practical utilities on this podcast. And I wonder whether or not that was a utility that people might be able to utilise a utility to utilise a utility that people might be able to put into play when they're feeling low on the happiness front?
Jake Mackenzie 43:05
Definitely, I tell people I work with write a gratitude list. Okay. And then another one that I think is also a nice one is Emmett Fox, has this beautiful prayer called the golden. What does it mean? I think it's golden prayer or the golden, not the golden mean. It's golden prayer, let's call it that. And he talks about just surrounding the so called problem, or obstacle, or situation or relationship, whatever, in a sphere of golden light, and then sending it off to whatever your understanding of higher power is, or Spirit of God is and sending it off and knowing that it's already been taken care of. It's a visualisation exercise visualisation. So you've surround this, let's say it's a person who's irking you, who's causing you pain and suffering. And you, you send them off in this ball of light, and give that person to God. Whatever name you choose, and have a understanding and knowing that God's already taken care of it. I've got this. Yeah. past present future. And then anytime your mind goes back to this situation, person, continually just No, no, doesn't. I'm not letting in a habit, any part of my mind my psyche, you know, easier said than done if you're seething with rage or you're homicidal. Yeah. But you know, like you say, utilities tools.
Martin O'Toole 44:32
Well, I'm a big fan of that. I'm, I've always been very pragmatic in spite of everything else. And I when I first started to do therapy
Jake Mackenzie 44:42
at the Golden Key, sorry, ultimately golden golden key.
Martin O'Toole 44:45
Now check that out. Thank you. When I first started in therapy, after my mom died, I went to see this therapist and said to him, I tried therapy. It didn't work. I'm sure I'm sure he hasn't heard that. Before I said to him, but I'll tell you what might work. He said a couple of things. And I thought that's interesting, you know, he's already sort of giving me because a chap I went to see before, he's never said anything, just sat there, right and shut down. And I said to him, do you know, I think you've got an idea if you can explain the science behind some of this stuff, as we're going along, as I'm prattling on, about, you know, having an affair with this woman, or doing this or drinking alcohol or fighting, or whatever it was, this might work. And so we did. And actually, by giving me these, these, these observations, I was able to then walk with Him and say, right, so that's what I'm doing. Yes, because you're in fight or flight mode. Ah, okay. Right. And that was when we start talking about neural pathways, and yada, yada. And actually, for me, in learning about that on the job, so to speak, on the job of healing, I was able to then put those utilities into into practice. So I'm a big fan of and it might not be, might not be for everyone to try and create I don't know if it's the former business person in me or, or what but on other former narcissistic personality disorder sufferer who needed process, and systems and you know, control in order to, to do that, but it works for me. And it's certainly something I'm super keen to always share in here. What would you, what would you say? Is your go to if you're, I'm assuming you do occasionally feel a little bit down? Or of course, yeah. So So what's your go to to fix that?
Jake Mackenzie 46:41
Drugs? Drugs, drugs, like Ringo Starr drugs now? Good question. First thing thought that comes to mind is the ocean. Yeah, I'd say nature actually, too. Yeah. Yeah. And depending on the situation, reaching out to a friend, or, you know, a friendly ear, heart. Good question. My go to I feel fortunate, it's passing. I have, you know, like problems. I hate to say like, this sounds pretty arrogant, but like, I have quality problems today that aren't manufactured out of fear. Yeah. You know, I think that's one way of describing it. So I'm able to process pretty quickly today. In the sense of, I've got, I've got tools by which to deal with angst, fear, anxiety, right? That's what we're talking about, like feeling down depressed, not not worthy, vulnerable and loved, right? Let's talk about all these negative frequency vibration, emotions, shameful, guilty, you know, I don't suffer from that. I do suffer sometimes from like, I shouldn't have said that. I shouldn't have done that. Or like, you know, having issues with the wife or whatever kids. And just feeling down for whatever reason. So I would say the tools by which I would use would also be reaching out to someone, you know, maybe reaching out to someone less fortunate than myself. You know, and offering, you know, kind word, or reach out to someone who I need to, to an ear to talk to. It's good question, Martin. It's like it's a really good one. But definitely, I would say the ocean and nature is a really place to recharge. Yeah, I and food. Oh, I'm just joking. I mean, chocolate. Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 48:56
there are certain Well, the waggon wheel that you do in World Cafe with a little bit of the chocolate mousse on top, so that's my bad. I don't eat that when I'm feeling sad or down. I just, I just likey everyone's
Jake Mackenzie 49:09
Why not love yourself?
Martin O'Toole 49:10
My hearing you saying that. She's made me realise actually, you know, I'm in I feel like I'm in that place as well. And I never thought I would be able to say that I was I was the victim I was. I love the Drama Triangle. So I was always claiming the victim prize number one pole position for why why is this happening to me? Why does it always happen to me in it, you know, these days? I'm fortunate enough to be able to say the same as you. Yeah. It's, for me, it's about having those practices. Yeah, those things that that you know, you can you can do and is either reaching out to someone to your network of care as if you like, or is meditating, or is moving. You know, nature for sure. Jules, always says to me if I'm in alignment environment if she can ever, you know, she's very energetically attuned. So if I'm, you know, maybe buried in the work, for example, you know, it's getting a little bit growly first thing she says is come up, get up to move. Let's do three sun salutations. Yeah, you know, so we just do some yoga, literally two minutes a yoga. So you're talking about utilities
Jake Mackenzie 50:23
now? Yeah. And so I straightaway will be like, okay, so if you break down the day, so for me, I definitely feel like movement, exercise. Meditation. At the sun, some degree, if you want to call it work, it's just shifting energy is a key component to me being fulfilled during the day, sleeping better. So like I wake up my general schedule is I wake up around six, sometimes earlier, sometimes a little bit late. I meditate. I do a 20 minutes, sometimes a 3040 minute meditation just depends. Most mornings, I'll go and train recently I've got into a good rhythm. And then I'll jump in a nice bath and a sauna. And a hot hot pool. Some biohacking. Yeah. And then our have been making a smoothie. And then I will generally respond to emails and data. And then I'll get on my way to the office or whatever, whatever day of the week. But I would have to say, I am. I'm proactive in my life. Definitely. Yeah, I'm definitely about being not being slothful or lazy. Being proactive. And I think that's probably a utility right there. I agree. Getting the chemicals going. I like I do little a few weights. I do physically, I surf often. I'm physically active and fit. I've got the male chemicals running around. And I think that's really healthy. Good food. Yeah, right. Absolutely. Feeding the brain, assuming good material. Being around good people. Yeah. vibes, vibes, good vibes, you know, I have pets, I have four dogs and three cats.
Martin O'Toole 52:02
That's not enough
Jake Mackenzie 52:04
to not keep rescuing and then we've got cats in the shop as well. So I think that's another thing I think you might find there might be a correlation with people who have animals as well, I reckon. So possibly, you know, and I was also going to say like thinking about like, just going back on our conversation. I speak for myself, but I would say the audience can probably plug into this one and relate or not relate depending, if you're doing what you feel you're here on this planet to do. And you and align with that in your heart. And only you can answer that, then I think that you're in your step or 12 ahead. And I think that is key. And that takes stripping it back even further would be like you've already started dealing with your traumas. You've already acknowledged your shadows, you've already started on the journey of not doing less harm and creating less karma. And you're also here on this planet, engaging in your purpose, purpose, for lack of word word, then that also would be a part of the recipe for happiness. I
Martin O'Toole 53:15
completely agree. I think purpose is the right word. And I think purpose is another word that we we possibly miss construe. back along the track. Yeah, I thought my purpose was to create an independent marketing agency, and that was going to be my legacy. And then I think backing on I'm not dissing anybody who genuinely does feel as though that's a legacy for them. But for me, when I look back, I sort of realise seriously, you invested all of that energy in that not crazy shit into that business is your legacy. And I think it's probably a nice thing for for to be able to say that a business is your legacy or a brand is your legacy, but it doesn't actually I realise, realise to me, it doesn't actually mean anything. It's not it's just a thing. It's a job. It's and it wasn't really a job I was enjoying either as it transpired. You know, that's the funny thing. Usually sometimes we just get so invested in these things dealt with and we really decided I'm going to I'm achieving that I'm getting to that milestone. And it's only when you get to the milestone you look back and go that was I really hated every every aspect every one Earth was doing but now I'm here so no, gotta go to the next one. Next one, the next one. So perhaps being a Yeah, so something you said there about unlearn or you didn't but it reminded me to talk about unlearning. I think that's another part of the process for people to consider when you're doing this shadow work is to is to be fully prepared to unlearn what we've learned through social conditioning and through family and through our own life event. It's some of which could well have been traumatic, for example, that's a big step all on its own. I think, did you have to year to do this you had to do and you had to go through an unlearning process, presumably? Yeah, you weren't always a cosmic pixie know travelling the world on a bike with a didgeridoo in
Jake Mackenzie 55:19
the NAM had a nomadic adventurous spirit for sure, but just I think, like programming of what society expects, and what you know, the right path is, is a very strong one. And I'm on unlearning the matrix programming, and unlearning the what we're taught to regurgitate in schools and unlearning. Yeah, I think that stuff is intrinsic to every human. And in the sense of like, once again, I was fortunate, I hit the drugs hard, and recovered at a young age, or put a plug in the jug at a young age, and started on this kind of spirit, not kind of the spiritual path of recovery, which has taken me to all kinds of places that has enabled me to learn a different language and a different perspective. And understand spirituality in that way. Look, I wanted to say to Martin, I'm 48. Right? I'm still a young man, I may live another 48 years. So what I knew about happiness today, will change will change. And, you know, and I may not, who knows what's around the corner, you know, but as far as it goes, as, as of today, sitting here with you, you know, I would say I am I happy? Could I be happier? Is that? Is that the dilemma of the human experience? Could I be happier?
Martin O'Toole 56:56
Well, that's part to your, your wins in our small problems, isn't it? I suppose. So if you if you were told you had five minutes left to live now? Would you would you know you were going to die happy? Or would you have a long list of regrets?
Jake Mackenzie 57:16
No regrets. That don't shut the note. Don't regret the past nor wish to shut the door and that's alive. You know, it's like everything for me that has taken me to where I am sitting right here right now as a part of the fabric of my character, life experience. Yeah, I like the analogy of the father, who constantly berates his son. Right? And every time he breaks his son, it's like, banging a nail into a wall. And then he realises at some point that it's just a incredibly negative damaging way of speaking to his child. And he starts speaking nice words. And every nice word he speaks, he pulls a nail out of this wall, but there's still a hole. Yes, you may pull all these nails and it's like, in a sense, so that's, that's kind of in a negative, positive. But I think that's real, too, in the sense of like, yeah, look, I don't have regrets. Would I have changed a few things? Yeah. If I had the wisdom and the experience, will I do them again? Possibly. Hopefully, not. Hopefully, I can pause. When agitated, I can take a breath and, and not not say that what I was gonna say or or send that email or react.
Martin O'Toole 58:41
Yeah. You know, really not allow emotions to to get the better of you. Yeah, no, I think that's fair enough. Although at the same time, I've had that whole conversation. I spent a great deal of my life regretting really regretting to the point of suicidally regretting things, you know. And in the deep, deep, dark, well of real depression. Also fantasising about having some sort of time travel capabilities, you know, to be able to go back and undo that because it was so shameful and so regretful. Because there, it might be, it might be the young who would say, Ah, don't regret anything. And it's probably worth pointing out as a different way of saying no regrets. And that's not what you're saying. You're saying, I'm just gonna do it. Fuck it, you know, no regrets. The point is, I think not to put words into your mouth that every one of those experiences made. Jake made the joke story. And made JQ Jake is now in April 2022. The sum total? Yeah. And without those all those versions of Jake, in that store, you wouldn't be where you're at now. And I
Jake Mackenzie 59:57
think that's the same for all people, but you can't regret And then you go back to the anatomy of acceptance. Yeah, the acceptance of that. Okay, I can't change that. You know, and
Martin O'Toole 1:00:10
what can I change,
Jake Mackenzie 1:00:11
courage to change things I can and the wisdom know the difference? You know? So that's Yeah, I think it is there. We're talking in a lot of big circles here, Martin, that has come back to the same place. Right?
Martin O'Toole 1:00:23
That's it, I think, well, I'm finding that's what happens in a podcast. But also, when you when you do a podcast about life, death, and everything in between, you tend to find that you you come back in circles, I sometimes I wonder whether or not these these discussions are in any way helpful for our listeners, because we do unpack a territory and have a little dance. Yeah. But then perhaps mindful of time, or just because we saw, we're enjoying ourselves, then we unpack another territory and have a dance around there. And it's like, well, hang on a minute. Can you go back to what you were talking about 10 minutes ago? Yes, no, maybe? I don't know
Jake Mackenzie 1:01:06
societal. I liked what you said before going back to a previous subject about unhappiness. So we take take the context out of individuals, and then we look at society like the Bhutanese Happiness Index, you look at the the opioid epidemic in America, or the violence epidemic, or the suicide, you know, you can, or the obesity are not just America, but globally as Australia. I'm sure the UK and other countries self in very similar numbers. I think America probably leads it. And that would be a national unhappiness index, your, for lack of a better word that is a representation of a national psyche. Yeah, so it's like this, this dream has been sold. But the dream is fundamentally rotten. It's like, you know, you watch the Superbowl and you see, you know, that whole pantomime theatre, and then all the ads is like, recently, I don't watch TV, but I we got a fire stick and we watch the Australian Open Tennis I like watching but a tennis every once in a while. And in between the ads were all pharmaceutical companies, right? or life insurance and insurance companies, right? Fear. And I have been unplugged from that to seeing it was really apparent to me. But if you're in that system, and you're constantly bombarded, it just becomes normalised it is, you've got this, this national. I'm making a mass generalisation here, because people may or may not agree with it. But this idea that it is propagated this consumption and this mass, you know, usage of societal resources, whatever you want to call that consumption, consumerism,
Martin O'Toole 1:03:03
I think consumption is a great word. Because it's a it's a catch all, isn't it for him for many things. And as you alluded earlier, you're not just talking about what we eat. What we drink is what we read what was once on the TV, it's what it's what the adverts say it's what the music we listened to all of that it's the people whose energy and space that we share, that's consumption with us all coming into us. And I think certainly, personally speaking, I had no idea about that. Until a few years ago, this was a huge lesson for me. But I think I think you're right, it's it's, it's safe to say that is statistics are saying the suicide rates like this, or the obesity rates like this, or the self harming rates like this are the addiction rates like this in a country compared to many others, then that has to be a metric that you would
Jake Mackenzie 1:03:52
the dream being sold. Yeah. That the dream is to whatever that dream is to be to look like that movie star on the screen, to have that house to buy that new Prius or whatever car to have those clothes to have all the ornaments and all the you know, stuff paraphernalia of success is broken. Yeah, it is absolutely. soulless. And I think the sooner you know, and that's the whole system. Word. Yeah. The whole system from the top down. That's a whole other podcast.
Martin O'Toole 1:04:29
Yeah. Because then we get into the the analysis of the matrix that and and money and tax and government and the the illusions that are wrapped around all of these.
Jake Mackenzie 1:04:44
You know, let me just just break that down into what we're talking about with happiness when doctors prescribe to help sick people. They prescribe drugs that make them sick, that make them sicker or just don't allow VA fundamental symptoms, they just cover them. You know, it's like this whole system we have that does not support like, wholeness and holistic healing like what you're, you know, you I've heard you say a few times Martin this, this this self self healing and the the idea that we can as a sovereign human don't need external stimulation to be Hall need, you know, society to tell us we're good. Okay, now we're getting abstract or I'm getting abstract again, but that, you know, going to the doctor, and the classic is your you need anti depression medication.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:39
I'm glad you mentioned that. Yes. Carry on, you know, or
Jake Mackenzie 1:05:43
you're, you know, you're a drug addict and you're told to practice moderation. Yeah, whatever it is, it's like a, you know, you could pick a topic, but basically, the system is not supporting.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:54
It's not it's almost feeding it. It's prolonging it. And I don't wish to sound like a tin hat wearing conspiracy theories right now. But well, let's talk about the pharmaceutical industry for a moment, since we're there. It's not in the interests of the pharmaceutical industry to cure anyone.
Jake Mackenzie 1:06:14
Lose, they lose their consumers,
Martin O'Toole 1:06:16
is it? Like, let's face it, you know, there's that they are in the business of sick of sickness. So this is a conversation I've had on on this podcast before talking about that. I'm not going to pop it doctors, I'm talking about the system. The system says, Okay, what's the problem? Well, I've got this symptom round, tell you what, well, I've got a drug for that. And as you say, it'll, it'll, it'll get rid of that symptom or alleviate it, or it'll tell your body that it's not happening, which is another bizarre thing about drugs and pharmaceuticals. But is it still happening? Yeah, it's still happening. But just switching off that part your body so your body doesn't really not affecting your body. Awesome. And understand all our wholesome, it'd be fine. It's all it's fixing symptoms. It's it's not fixing the root problem. And of course, you could talk about many things in within the matrix that do that. And there seems to be less little encouragement for one to to look at the root problem. Rumi. Rumi, well, we never Rumi Rumi said, maybe you're searching among the branches for what may only be found in the roots, which I thought was relevant to our conversation about happiness as well. But there are symptoms, and there are there are root problems. And and if we are in a society that is essentially telling us knee teaching us in schools, yeah. In situations where all the authorities are telling us something better, that we ought not to worry about that we're just we are just to try and fix these, these symptoms, when are we ever going to do the work. And know sometimes I feel blessed, and cursed living in Bali, in that regard, because I'm surrounded by so many people who, who, who have who've had for whatever reason done that work. And the energy of this island and the energy of the people and wonder that Bali is provides this, this incredible bosom for healing and, and it encourages anyone to do the healing journey, doesn't it? And then often think about those on the other side of the world who don't have that environment. And, you know, that sort of community around
Jake Mackenzie 1:08:39
Yeah, I think these last few years, have been challenging for everyone, I think, no doubt, the world has, you know, collectively experienced this incredibly powerful change and really challenging point in our history. And for myself, I have definitely come to a few conclusions in my own self happiness. And one of those is to not be divisive, for the sake of being divisive. And I say that, in the sense of like, I definitely am not afraid to speak my truth. And what I feel and what is in my heart, that is is garnered from my common sense and also my I don't want to say research because you know, sounds too scientific, but the the inherent inconsistencies and untruths and brainwashing and so I'm, I'm all for open dialogue and discussion, and definitely feel strong enough as a man to be able to say no, I don't agree with that. I think that's very important. have, you know, to not feel like I just have to go along with the flow because it's easier to do. But to be strong enough and have enough self love to say no, I don't agree. And be okay with that whatever the result is not in the sense. And I say that not not to be divisive or combative, but simply to be true to myself. And, and I think that's important, because I think that for me, there's a, there's a line that I can step over where I become, I can become quite thorny in the sense of like, wanting to pick a fight or wanting to create division. And I've been learning that more and more about my personality type that that doesn't actually serve me, well, no, really does not bring me happiness, I get this, the fleeting sense of satisfaction, but in the for the bigger picture. It's not good for me, it's not good for anyone else, actually. And so that also brings me to this point, I was told by teaching many years ago, a couple of things to go by. No gossip. So when I engage in gossip about another person or whatever, it's of low vibration. Yeah. And does me no good. Does them no good. Is not positive. So I can catch myself in them. And I do sometimes catch myself and go okay, no, I'm not going to talk about that person. You know, these are these are highfalutin, spiritual ideals. No judgement. Yeah, no blame. Yeah. I mean, there's just a couple right there. It's like, okay, big ones. So just to start with that idea of like, gossiping. That's a good one. He's got a lot of people do totally, we all do. We all and then some people more than others. And I've been catching myself being like, No, I don't need to engage in that, we get that that's a discussion to itself, but they're bringing it back to this sense of happiness. So I just I just said, like, I can use the platform of social media, to sow seeds of love or seeds of division. I can use any platform for that matter in my family life, the better platform or in my business world, or whatever, to what message? Do I put out to a follow do I live by? is it authentic? Am I who I say I am? Do you know when you know where I'm going is totally
Martin O'Toole 1:12:29
get it and actually use the word sovereignty earlier on. And I think there's the there's a lot in that. It's not as you say, it's not about being divisive. It's about having the self love, self respect, self awareness, and, and the sovereignty to say, what's on your mind. Now, I can't believe I'm going to quote Rumi twice in in five minutes. But if you remember a few quotes here, they're a walk in prose book. But really, no, this was a good one for me. Rumi said before you utter a word, send it through, I think he says, pass it let it pass through three gates. Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? Yeah. Wow. Imagine if that was on the masthead of Facebook, you know, or Twitter, or any other toxic social media platform for that matter? And that was great advice for me. Now, the utility actually, just as before, before we go to that, no, actually, okay. It is true. It may be necessary. If it's definitely not caned, for example, I'm quite a straight talker. And I believe in authenticity, I struggle with insincerity and lack of authenticity. So I just say what's on my mind, but of course, I often forget that the other people are perhaps more sensitive than i. Therefore, if it doesn't meet all of them, it ought not to be or not to be altered. And I think that's a wonderful way of considering how to how to interact.
Jake Mackenzie 1:14:07
Yes. I've got to say difficult things. Well, you do. And sometimes you don't have to say difficult things.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:14
No. Well, sometimes actually, more often than not, we'd have to say anything. Yeah. And I think that's probably the that's where I'm trying to get to and this is a guy with a podcast who is pretty famous amongst all of
Jake Mackenzie 1:14:25
this new this new fad and podcasting is just called silence will silence the Ramana Maharishi for an hour podcast.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:33
Silence maybe just the occasional cough or scratch
Jake Mackenzie 1:14:36
Yeah, just you know, throw a word out every once in a while, like, yeah,
Martin O'Toole 1:14:40
I might try it. Try it. Literally try there. Maybe next time we do a chinwag. We have three words each. We just drop them in over an hour and that's it.
Jake Mackenzie 1:14:50
Subliminal product placement.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:55
Not understood about Yeah. Well, as always, I knew we were gonna go Over time, but I have really enjoyed I love talking to you about this stuff.
Jake Mackenzie 1:15:03
Yeah, well, this is it's meaningful conversation about meaningful subjects. I reckon, you know, we can go in any direction with this, which is the great thing is like, what a huge one. What is happiness? Yeah, it's not happiness.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:17
Well, maybe we maybe we'll come back to what is happiness next time around? I perhaps I ought to try to to pick smaller topics we can nail in an hour or perhaps not. And perhaps this is the right way to do it. I don't
Jake Mackenzie 1:15:31
know topic. Could you nail in an hour only a topic you can now I'm interested to hear what you're thinking
Martin O'Toole 1:15:36
about life? Yeah. Well, I suppose you could be very specific, couldn't you? So let's, let's say we're talking about how to interact with one another. For example, we could get really specific about how to interact with a person, we could get more specific how to interact with a person in a certain situation. And I suppose then we keep the the topic for about five minutes, we keep on point when
Jake Mackenzie 1:16:01
we ought to not give a fuck. Like I think as a book, good revenue, just thinking straight up, I was thinking, how to motivate your children. Nice. Okay. I sat down and spoke to someone who had a son who was 23 or 24. Now, and I was having some issues with my son, and it was just a total random conference. He said, you know, what? Why don't you try incentivizing things for him? Financially incentivizing it, like if you want him to help you with the dogs? Once you offer him some money? Look, if you and I did, and it worked. Well, they offered Flynn my son money to take the dogs, one particular dog for a walk minimum three times a week. And it was beneficial for him. You know, and the dogs had the dog. And anyway, I'm just bringing up one topic, because actually, that was very beneficial for me. Yeah, that's so yeah. Anyway,
Martin O'Toole 1:16:57
well, we might we might also attempt to do that. Well, I might consult you off Off mic. And I don't know right now. We're just we're RAM we've been billing and we're rumbling around. But that's part of the point. i As long as people are enjoying the conversations as well, I hope so. And as I said to
Jake Mackenzie 1:17:14
be three people that might listen to it's a few more than three.
Martin O'Toole 1:17:18
And actually, all three of those people have listened to your podcast. The last one. You're ranking fourth in all of our podcasts. Fantastic. Yeah. So
Jake Mackenzie 1:17:27
it's still off the podium.
Martin O'Toole 1:17:30
Or you are off the podium, but let's see how five you let's see how we'll do on this happy nature. We'll never know.
Jake Mackenzie 1:17:35
I really appreciate you coming here, Martin. And the topic was, I was not. I was not advised. Here's what we're talking about, which is probably best way of doing it, I reckon. Thank you. Thank you.
