SUMMARY KEYWORDS
love, jules, women, thought, point, conversation, feel, bali, people, podcast, relationship, romantic, realised, great, absolutely, healthy, question,
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Chris Siracuse
Martin O'Toole 00:00
Well, this is a miserable rainy Tuesday morning, isn't it? Chris
Chris Siracuse 00:31
Intense last night she hear that?
Martin O'Toole 00:33
How long was it raining for last night?
Chris Siracuse 00:34
Like all night? Was it?
Martin O'Toole 00:36
I woke up in the dark? For my probably my three o'clock bathroom visit.
Chris Siracuse 00:45
Martin, you're getting old man.
Martin O'Toole 00:48
I am. I need to do some more work on my prostate I think Oh, buddy. So yeah, and my pond is full. This morning. Your pond is full. We have an empty pond. I didn't know you had a pond. Yeah, we have a pond.
Chris Siracuse 01:02
Well, it's not a pond until it's got water in it. So it was not a pond. Until last night.
Martin O'Toole 01:05
We had an empty tiled and concrete hole in the ground.
Chris Siracuse 01:12
Okay, that's better.
Martin O'Toole 01:13
And now it is a pond. So I'm actually thinking, Do you know anything about ponds?
Chris Siracuse 01:18
I don't know. I use to fish. So maybe. What do you need to know?
Martin O'Toole 01:23
Well, I'm thinking about getting sufficient. Oh, yeah. filter in it. And you know, doing fishy stuff.
Chris Siracuse 01:28
Oh, cool. Yeah, I love that.
Martin O'Toole 01:31
It's because it's all set up. It's just the there are two like holes where you're supposed to put the filters.
Chris Siracuse 01:37
It's preset
Martin O'Toole 01:38
buy a filter and I need to buy some fish and some lily pads or something. Yeah. But I was thinking because it's quite a big pond. And we've got a lot of mosquitoes now at our place. Because it's obviously rainy season. You can get fish that eat mosquitoes. I mean, I know all fish need mosquitoes, but you can get certain fish that that have a proclivity leaning toward the mosquito.
Chris Siracuse 02:05
Yes, I have heard this. I don't know what they are. But
Martin O'Toole 02:09
that's what I'm interested in.
Chris Siracuse 02:10
I was I was hoping that your palm story was going to lead us into today's topic. I was like, wow, what's he going to do here with the palm and love fish? I don't know.
Martin O'Toole 02:22
Well, did you love to fish?
Chris Siracuse 02:24
Yeah, I think there was a time where I love to fish.
Martin O'Toole 02:27
We're not talking about that kind of love away.
Chris Siracuse 02:30
We're not no, we're talking about romantic love
Martin O'Toole 02:33
romantic love so so I'm intirgued of any trade since since we decided we're gonna have this conversation because you chose this topic. So I was intrigued as to why you want it to talk about romantic love, but I thought first thing we could do is a little game.
Chris Siracuse 02:51
Cool.
Martin O'Toole 02:53
song names with love in the title.
Chris Siracuse 02:58
Oh, wow. And only needed love Cyclopedia Don't tell me you love me.
Martin O'Toole 03:06
Stupid Love.
Chris Siracuse 03:09
Love. Love Boat.
Martin O'Toole 03:13
Love me do
Chris Siracuse 03:16
love shack.
Martin O'Toole 03:19
I will love you forever.
Chris Siracuse 03:23
Modern Love.
Martin O'Toole 03:27
Love me. I love me.
Chris Siracuse 03:30
Love is a battlefield. I don't know if that's a it's song lyrics. I don't know if that's an title.
Martin O'Toole 03:36
Well, this is a song title game, Chris.
Chris Siracuse 03:39
Well, I'm sorry.
Martin O'Toole 03:40
crazy little thing called love.
Chris Siracuse 03:42
Nice. Can you good? See? Everyone should know that Martin did not prep me for this.
Martin O'Toole 03:47
No, I didn't prep me for this. Just I just thought it'd be a good idea this morning.
Chris Siracuse 03:52
It is a good idea. Like, I'm just trying to think I can think of a lot of song lyrics with love.
Martin O'Toole 03:57
Well, I think we should just perhaps end the game on a tie and invite our listeners to add as many songs with the name love in the comments as you possibly can.
Chris Siracuse 04:10
Yeah, that sounds good. Sure.
Martin O'Toole 04:12
So yeah. Romantic love. What inspired you to alter the conversation about romantic love, Chris? Well, you texted me, and you put a little bit of the pressure on. Chris, I want to want to have you on the podcast. I was like great. That's awesome. And then you said I want you to tell me what you're feeling.
Chris Siracuse 04:33
As far as the topic The first thing as you remember the first thing that came to mind was minimalism. Yes. Because you know that's I think you know this about me that's a pretty big thing for me.
Martin O'Toole 04:43
I actually didn't You didn't know that. And it kind of is for me. Yeah. as well. Although I say kind of because I bought all of this equipment for the podcast and actually feel like I'm cheating on my on my minimalist foundations.
Chris Siracuse 04:58
I don't think you are I think this is all this necessity. Yeah, so that was the first thing that came to mind. And then I thought romantic love because we're in Bali. And it's it's a thing here. It's a thing everywhere, but I think it's a thing especially here.
Martin O'Toole 05:13
Romance,
Chris Siracuse 05:14
Romance Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 05:16
In what way?
Chris Siracuse 05:18
Well, you know, Eat Pray Love.
Martin O'Toole 05:22
I am familiar with that movie.
Chris Siracuse 05:24
Have you watched it? Or are you just familiar with it?
Martin O'Toole 05:25
I've watched it like a million times. I watched it two weekends ago. I love that film.
Chris Siracuse 05:30
Okay, that's awesome. I'm only asking because I didn't watch it up until about two months ago. Well, I know I had never seen it. Remember the scene when she's with the young like curly hair. Blonde Ozzy, dude, I think yeah, that's a cringe worthy, super, super cringe. But he takes his shirt off and he starts yelling at her is like, everybody needs to have a love affair in Bali.
Martin O'Toole 05:58
wasn't a bad Australian accent.
Chris Siracuse 05:59
Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't going for the Aussie accent. I was just just trying to get the line. Right.
Martin O'Toole 06:03
Everybody needs to have a good love affair in Bali.
Chris Siracuse 06:06
Yeah, something like that. Yeah, yeah. Well, that kind of stuck with me. Because there is there's something there is something about this fantasy life here in paradise that I think pushes people into that space of romantic love. Hmm, it just causes some things to fire in our brains in our body that makes us more susceptible. I say susceptible. Because I do think that it's love is a dangerous thing. And actually, you are vulnerable and susceptible. Insert feeling those things. So yeah, I don't know my thoughts. I don't know. Where do you want to start? Man? I have a lot to say about it.
Martin O'Toole 06:44
Well, you've already created a can of worms that requires an opening I think I yeah, I suppose. I suppose I can see where you're going with it. So is this more about? Is this about people on their holidays? Or is this about travellers? Is this about transients. Is this about a transient refer back to the battery Pray Love for a moment. Yeah, she was for anyone who hasn't read or read the book or seen the movie? I doubt there are many people who haven't read the book or seen the movie. But Elizabeth Gilbert great writer, takes a year off her job as a writer to go and find herself right. It's fair to say. And so she eats in Italy. She learns to pray in India, and she finds love in Bali. And he's over a year. So I don't know. I haven't read the book. I've only seen the movie about 55 six times. So I don't know how transient that plan was for her whether or not he actually she could have extended it or my point being that if you know you go into a place for a few months, only a few months and then you returning to your life in America. UK, Finland, wherever. Finland but if Finland. Finland. Have you ever been to Finland? I haven't.
Chris Siracuse 08:14
I meet people from all over the world I have yet to meet anybody from Finland.
Martin O'Toole 08:18
It's very strange that Finland just popped out there now I must Minister I've got to make a mental note of that. I was channelling something that I want to get to know why. I feel a strong calling to Norway to me. I'm not sure if I've got my might have some some of my Viking roots that who knows.
Chris Siracuse 08:32
Anyway, we digress.
Martin O'Toole 08:33
I definitely digress there all the way to Finland. But the point being if you're on a if you're on a trip like that, I guess you would you say to yourself one thing I'm not going to do is fall in love.
Chris Siracuse 08:50
I don't know it seems to be the opposite for the women I meet here in Bali that are coming here and doing the Eat Pray Love Julia Roberts thing because obviously that movie had a huge impact on the culture of well, Western culture, but also Balinese culture. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was talking specifically about Western culture, but it inspired I think it's safe to stay safe to say that it inspired a lot of people to go and find themselves. Yes, exactly. And maybe it was just kind of the modern example of that, of course has been going on for a very long time. But you So you asked the question. If you were going to go on a trip like that, do the Julia Roberts go find yourself thing would you would you open yourself up to romantic love? Or would you intentionally say no, I'm finding myself I'm cutting myself off from romantic love. The ironic thing is that man or woman, it seems to me that as soon as somebody does that says no, I am concentrating on myself. I am this is for me. I'm exploring myself. As soon as they do that they immediately become way more attractive. It's somebody's like, No, you're not. I'm going to, I'm going to make sure that I get that get you, you know, and I'm going to I'm going to fall in love with you, you're going to fall in love with me because there's something attractive about that somebody is saying no, this is about me. So that's, I guess what I would say that's the ironic thing and I don't know the answer to that question. I know that my experience with a lot of the women that come here to Bali and I'm talking specifically about women because that's I'm heterosexual man so that's I don't know how it is to fall in love with a man Yeah, I feel like they very much leave themselves open to falling in love regardless whether or not they're doing the Julia Roberts Eat Pray Love thing.
Martin O'Toole 10:38
So you think a lot of the women coming here are leaving themselves open to No, that's that's probably a sweeping generalisation. So I'm summing up what you said. accurately. I mean, it could be a sweeping generalisation.
Chris Siracuse 10:53
Okay, we could do a survey. Aren't you doing surveys now?
Martin O'Toole 10:56
Yeah, although love that you're doing that I always forget to do it. Yeah. Well, you should do one for this. Okay, we will do a q&a, which appears on Spotify. Yeah, if you're listening to this podcast on Spotify, and you have an opinion, Chris is potentially incendiary comments. Please do engage there.
Chris Siracuse 11:18
Definitely potentially incendiary, engage and engage as you will with our q&a on subject. Yes. Well, I think you're right. I think it probably is a sweeping generalisation. Maybe he's, he's backtracking. They're kids. But I don't know. Okay, back, let's see the results of the survey will say, man, or maybe maybe it's just that regardless of what your intent is, that being here and the process of finding yourself in that process, it is it is highly likely that you will, at least like I said, attract someone that's going to find that very attractive that you are, quote unquote, finding yourself, or that that's part of that's part of the exploration, I mean, that you could make the argument that finding romantic love, and starting a family, you know, all of that stuff is kind of the ultimate in the human experience. One could say that I'm not saying for sure that it is. But if that's true, then when you do the Julia Roberts Eat Pray Love thing, then of course, that's, that could be part of it. Because I don't know, I take issue with the whole finding ourselves thing. I think our generations my generation has taken it way too far. I think your generation has been a little bit more balanced with it. Because you're still kind of connected to more of the stability of the old world. And you're not so egocentric, narcissistic, like my generation is. My generation has taken this whole find yourself bullshit and just taking it to the extreme. Yeah, for sure. And then that makes it hard. The reason I bring it up in the context of this conversation that makes it hard to find romantic love or lasting romantic love, but jumping in their mind. Yeah. Wow. You just said so many things. I need to know. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm just like, I'm on one this morning. Well, while you were talking, I did also think of the movie The Beach. This has got nothing to do with romance because actually he doesn't that's not a romance stories, but there is a romance in it. And there's always some romance and every Hollywood movie, but but that was another for me from my generation. My generation was probably a little bit when was that the 90s Wasn't it? Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 13:32
but that was another epic movie that came out that sort of I think gave people an awful lot of that travel that wonder last ya know that different kind of wonder last we have another cover Ye man because you can
13:46
13:46
13:46
Martin O'Toole 13:46
do it like
13:51
subscribe. We will fly. Follow you will fly if you lie and subscribe if you follow us. Subscribe if you follow?
Martin O'Toole 14:14
So might we suppose that people who go to UN mountains doing air quotes, find themselves the air quotes are appropriate for saying that so yeah, doing it. Obviously, we all go and do these things for different reasons. So I don't think we can create a sweeping generalisation in this particular topic. But I think what we can say is a lot of people soul search elsewhere out with their traditional environment because they don't feel as though they're getting emotional, or intellectual stimulus, the nutrients you like that they need to grow. And quite clearly, if we are going to spend all of our time in the same environment, we're only going to have you always did what you If you always do what you always did, then you're always going to get what you always got. Right? And then, of course, travelling to the Far East, for example, because that's where Bali is in Indonesia, and everyone, just in case you didn't know,
Chris Siracuse 15:13
it's surprised how many people don't know, I know.
Martin O'Toole 15:17
I said it just even though
Chris Siracuse 15:18
people are like, or they're like multiple islands and Bali, which actually there are, but
Martin O'Toole 15:21
Well, yeah, but Bali is one of Bali 47,000 Indonesian islands. But we digress. Again, we digress. But this is the how to die happy podcast, this is what we do. Where was I? So when people come to a country like this for an extended period of travel, I suppose one of the things you might be interested in doing is healing or growing your heart. And what I mean by that is, often we have a closed heart. Because of the emotional damage we've had. Somebody has many people hurt us. Actually, we've been hurt since we were born. And every other relationship we've had since then has been I don't want to say toxic, but there would have been some toxicity in it. My point being that they might not be particularly healthy relationships, thanks to our own our own pathology, right, our own psychological pathology. So there isn't this, this idea that we have a closed heart. And if we've got a closed heart, then come into a place like barley is is more often than not likely to crack that if you do some of the work. Certainly, that's what happened to me. You know, I opened my heart in this on this beautiful island. And I learned to love my self on this island, and it was and it was through doing that work. That then I realised Oh, wow. Okay, this explains a lot. This is why I've actually never been able to have a successful romantic relationship. You didn't love yourself. You're dingbat. But you're so lovable. Makasi bro
Chris Siracuse 17:10
Well, you just Yeah, you said it in a much more elegant. Thank you. eloquent and elegant. Eloquent, elegant, eloquent. Oh, nice.
Martin O'Toole 17:20
I mean, you could be do you want I think there the same? Yeah.
Chris Siracuse 17:23
No, but which designs you like you have the one can I have this one?
Martin O'Toole 17:26
That one you are the fleur de Li and I love the four leaf clover.
Chris Siracuse 17:32
Yeah, that was a very, very nice way to put it Martin. Love your way with words. excuse that is very visual. Very spot on very poetic, but also very practical. You have a gift, my friend with those words.
Martin O'Toole 17:47
You are too kind.
Chris Siracuse 17:49
That's true, though.
Martin O'Toole 17:50
I love you, Chris.
Chris Siracuse 17:50
I love you too, buddy. Romantic but not. I mean, maybe romantic. I don't know.
Martin O'Toole 17:54
I've got a little bit of love for you
Chris Siracuse 17:56
a previous life. I don't know, not in this current iteration just because of my biology and yours.
Martin O'Toole 18:01
But who knows in a past life. Perhaps we were lovers. always made me laugh. It's hard to make me laugh early in the morning. Usually, I'm just like, No.
Chris Siracuse 18:12
I know that. Yeah. Listen, I know it's your golf cutter.
Martin O'Toole 18:21
Well, also, all I was going to add to that was if we have lived in a certain way for a long time. And it's been through for a lot of people probably in fight flight, or freeze mode, right. And suddenly, we have a spiritual or emotional or energetic experience in a place like Bali, which happens all the time that suddenly just goes boom, and then the heart chakra pops and we're going for HVAC, whoa, I'm vibrating. You know, I feel love. And I can see why for a lot of people. Then the next obvious aspiration is to turn around and share that. And I can see how for a lot of people that might not be healthy. Or it might perhaps it's too early is the way to look at it. Right, right. No, because suddenly you're experiencing all these new feelings and I bet lots of people in Valley have had similar Oh, who were on similar journeys to to that which you mentioned earlier. I came here I suppose for that. Not to find love. But to Eat Pray and love. This is a little sidestep that apparently, after that movie came out, and Balinese tourism skyrocketed. Yeah, and the place was very quickly overrun. Apparently, they were selling T shirts and vests that said Eat Pray Leave on them
20:00
Chris Siracuse 20:01
Yeah, see, that's, I can get behind that you pray. Oh, wow, that's gonna be my new pray get out of here.
Martin O'Toole 20:10
If we pray, make like a leaf and get out.
Chris Siracuse 20:12
Yes, I love that. I love that.
Martin O'Toole 20:15
Anyway, another digression but
Chris Siracuse 20:17
but that's a good one though.
Martin O'Toole 20:18
So what do you think about that? Does that make sense?
Chris Siracuse 20:21
It makes so much sense. And actually next time I'm explaining to somebody, this phenomenon, I'm gonna take that clip of you just describing it and I'm gonna play it for them because you captured it so perfectly and so beautifully. I don't think that I can say it any better, I may be able to add a little bit to it. A little personal flavour without giving too much away
Martin O'Toole 20:42
a little peppering of Chris
Chris Siracuse 20:44
little pepper and of Chris Yeah, it makes complete sense. And I as you were talking, I was just I was imagining myself, I was imagining other people that I've met in Bali, and seeing that kind of story play out over and over and over again. And not really ever been able to put my finger on it the way that you just did. But knowing intuitively like there was something going on. I think that's the a great way to put it you crack the heart open. That heart chakra stuff. I don't know I you know, a little bit limited with the spiritual lingo?
Martin O'Toole 21:16
Well, the reality is we don't need to it doesn't need to be a spiritual conversation either. Ultimately, it is just this. It's a transformational place where people undergo transformational experiences. You name it, it's on offer here. You could do yoga, you could do Kundalini yoga, or kundalini awakening, and suddenly go, what was that? Excuse me? Or sound healing or meditation? Or a great many other things. The point is that for everybody, it's a different transformation experience, isn't it? But for many, there is a moment where suddenly you know, the angels sing and people go, Oh, geez, wow, hang on. Yeah. And what's happened to me, and then all of a sudden, the there is an opening here, pointing at my chest. If you're not watching the video, you're sending out this newfound energy. But of course, then you're open to new energy as well. And sort of playing to the point you made about, actually, it's ironically, more attractive. Yeah. Yeah. I think I had not really thought about it that way. But I suppose yeah, many people would be attracted to the idea that someone is actually self realising.
Chris Siracuse 22:30
Yeah. And turning on and tuning in, as Timothy Leary would say,
Martin O'Toole 22:34
but not dropping out
Chris Siracuse 22:35
and not dropping out. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there's a couple things if I, if I may, please. So because of this, I call it a phenomenon because it's, I think it's the best way to, for me to describe it right now. Because of this phenomenon. I have been very, especially over the past six months or so, since I've been here longer. You know, it's been almost two years since I've been here. I have been more sceptical about this, when I sensed this from people, whether it's, I mean, from women. It was Yeah, from women. Because I see this and I'm like, okay, it'll pass. Right, like I I met this girl. Sorry, just to interrupt you. What? Just for clarity. So yeah, thank you for clarifying that. The feeling that feeling the feeling that they're in love? Yes. You know, no, not with me necessarily. I met this girl a couple of weeks ago, and she was telling me about this guy that she met. And like, she was just a friend of a friend. You know, there was nothing romantic between us. But she was telling me about this guy. And she had a conversation with him for about 20 minutes. And she was just completely smitten. So much so that she was trying to get me to track him down. She didn't know his name. She just knew his nationality. We connected. Yeah, I tried. I actually did know somebody that had this exact mix of nationalities, which is kind of a unique mix. I'm not going to say it on the podcast, I don't want to blow lower spot up. But what she's like, and I'm not like this, I That's what she said, just like I'm not normally like this, but I just I had this conversation with him. And I just immediately I saw, I saw little babies with him and I saw a future together. I was like, that's cool. Yeah, it'll pass though. And I just kind of laugh because it's not I'm not laughing at her, but just knowing that this is what happens. So my point is that I have been very sceptical of that feeling. I want for myself, like, if I feel that or somebody feels that towards me, I just think, okay, you're in Bali, you're on vacation, or you're here for a couple months. Once you live here. You get used to that and you realise like, Yes, this is an incredible place that does, like you said, open people up and increases that, that vibration in our hearts. But it's also a place where people live and we just, it's, you've got everyday life and all the things that come along with that. Yeah, and the practical side of it. So this gets to the other point I wanted to make about out the what, what you think love is what any of us think love is because there we talked about, or you said that you don't want to, we don't have to make it clearly spiritual. But you could when you talk about romantic love or any love, but we're talking about romantic love, you can talk about the biology, you can talk about the spiritual element, you can talk about the the psychological element. And something that I kind of struggle with, I think, is, is deciding or determining or understanding what proportion of each of those is influencing my behaviour when it comes to love. For instance, I could say, well, I feel love towards this person because I'm driven to procreate, right? That's just pure biological, biological element of it, saying like, maybe maybe there's no spiritual element to it. I'm not saying this is the case. But you could one could make the argument like a very scientific minded person could say, there's no spiritual element to it. It's pure biology, pure mechanics, you're driven to procreate, it floods your body with all these, these hormones, and it confuses you, it basically tricks you into thinking that you need this person because your body wants to procreate, and that's beneficial for the species and for the family unit. So I'm curious about your thoughts on this? Because it's some I struggle with it. I really do. And I, because since you know a little bit about my last serious relationship with Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 26:37
Lady,
Chris Siracuse 26:38
a lady. I mean, that definitely fucked me up is what I'm saying. So now,
Martin O'Toole 26:42
it was a toxic ending. Is that right? Is that safe to say?
Chris Siracuse 26:45
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was
Martin O'Toole 26:47
you can talk about if you want to talk about it on here,
Chris Siracuse 26:49
we can talk about it. Yeah. I mean, it was yeah, it was not healthy. And I did a lot of thing. Was it in? Was it an unhealthy relationship, though? Or was it an unhealthy break? Not always,
Martin O'Toole 26:57
with hindsight, actually, was the relationship?
Chris Siracuse 27:02
Yeah, I mean, it was rocky foundations. I think so. I think so. Yeah. I mean, I was I, I was pretty fucked up. Yeah. And we did not, we did not bring out the best in each other. Because of that. I think I've gone really far down this, like, biology. It's biology, it's fine. And now if I feel that, I just think okay, it'll pass. This is just This is, this is just the body this is the biological processes doing their thing. Let it pass. And that makes me sad. Because I also very much believe there's a spiritual element to love. Of course, it is absolutely there.
Martin O'Toole 27:48
Absolutely. It's union, isn't it? I don't know. Well, again, a fine can of worms. Gratitude for your presentation, of the aforementioned love is, is a different flavour for everyone, I think. And I think and that's primarily down to who we are, from where we came, and where we are right now. If you'd have said, you'd have asked Martin version 1.0. In his early 30s, what love was, it didn't really have a clue. Although he'd already been married and divorced.
Chris Siracuse 28:26
What do you think you would say? If you asked Martin 1.0? That question
Martin O'Toole 28:30
I think he'd have I think you'd have a much more basic idea of it based on what he thought it should be.
Chris Siracuse 28:37
So what did you think it should be? 30 years old?
Martin O'Toole 28:40
Well, I think I thought it was about, about stability, finding the right person. Having stability, settling down with that person, absolutely. appreciating the fact that yeah, you may well be completely different. Arguments are totally normal. Falling Out is normal, being unpleasant to one another is normal. being dishonest with one another, is perfectly acceptable. And why is that because there's just certain things that you can't be open about. That's what mountain version 1.0 used to feel. Exactly. So, so mountain version 1.0 kept a lot of secrets. And I dare say his partners did too. Now, if you ask me and I mean, just for the record, podcasting listeners here, I am no expert on romantic love. I got two ex wives 2x y 2x y. I was only one both of which are mistreated in one way or another. Don't get me wrong. It's a co creation and CO responsibility. I'm ashamed to say that I was a sex addict. So which I've already discussed on the podcast, I slept with hundreds of women. And I was constantly seeking intimacy through sex. So this plays to your biology conversation as well, I guess a little bit. So my perspective of what love was, was totally and utterly warped. Actually, through a great deal of therapy and a lot of work since I realised that all of these women I was sleeping with, there was there was a process of sounds awful. And I suppose in a way it was it was almost it was a game, it was a play, it was playing games like fishing, we spoke about fishing earlier, I was playing a game, it was casting the line out there and seeing who I could attract. And then as soon as I had a bite, there was a game between us. And then ultimately, I'd win that woman over, we would do whatever we were doing. It was either, you know, sex for one night, or it was maybe sex a few times, or maybe it was a micro relationship. But the point is, when I as soon as I caught the fish, and I hasten to add all of my divine goddess queens, listen to this show. That's not my perspective. I don't see this. This is not how I feel about this stuff anymore. It's definitely not you're so respectful. And I appreciate that you actually hold me back from like, being my worst. So no, I mean, it was the thing is, I think it's important to to use the language that the I know, people use now. Yeah, in the context of this stuff, even though it's not me anymore, because it's, I think it just highlights the issue. Which, incidentally, fundamentally, I think, is a psychological issue. But we can come on to that. So So you're saying so then to keep going with the fishing? Well, one side, one side, one, my prize, I've very quickly become disinterested on any level or another, right. And so and it was only a matter of time before that thing was gonna dissipate. Now, there were many women in that whole madness, who we're doing exactly the same thing. You know, we were, I wasn't a sexual predator. This was a, this was a two way thing. But there were also there were also lots of women who, who developed a love or a strong feelings towards me, and I wasn't interested. And I now know, I probably wasn't, I primarily wasn't interested because I didn't actually know what love was. My perspective of it was what twisted. And so I tried it with various relationships, I did have several serious relationships as well, but, but they never quite worked and, and we were often I was attracting a certain type of woman, and she was attracting a certain type of man, Martin version 1.0. Bad Boy, naughty, cheeky bit of money, some nice shiny stuff. We had, you know, we did nice, fun stuff. And actually, quite a few, quite a few women tried to change me. Yeah, which is an interesting thing. And all the while I was trying to I think, failing, but trying to change myself because I was trying to fit this, you know, not, not geometric shaped mountain into a, into a round hole. If that makes sense. It's not quite a square peg, because the cones are all smashed up. You can follow me on that metaphor, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. And because I thought that that was what it should be. I want a round hole. And here's the other thing by the way, my mum and dad were my mum and dad didn't have a healthy relationship. You know, my mum was have talked about on several episodes was an alcoholic palesa. So that I had that in the background. And this by the way, this is not me talking about me on the podcast is hopefully you can follow that. This is about our pathology. It's about our psychological mythology. So what is love to everyone? Well, depends on your background. Because when you've got two parents who are having a loving, healthy relationship, and there's a weird drama going on over there that you witness day in day out as a small child, that's that's what you learned about love. That woman is your female role model that man is your male role model. And they're teaching you what union looks like. Bearing in mind, the very small painting I just, I just did for you might give you an idea. I didn't get the I didn't get the best idea of what a healthy relationship was. And then I took that with my closed heart, which was actually locked inside the chest insider Citadel inside several Castle like buildings.
Chris Siracuse 34:56
They have moats around was a moat with sharks ash
Martin O'Toole 34:59
sharks and alligators with flick knives
Chris Siracuse 35:04
and lasers on their head lasers.
Martin O'Toole 35:06
Yeah, no turtles with lasers. So powers reference Yeah, lasers. You think about thinking about Lord of the Rings, castles, you know they're built so you're really not getting in. And so that was personally speaking that was my heart. That was my closed heart. That's what a closed heart looks like, by the way.
Chris Siracuse 35:25
But yeah, keep going. But it's something interesting that I want to keep going.
Martin O'Toole 35:28
Well, I so I'm rounding back to ultimately. I didn't know what love walls, and I didn't love myself. And I know it's a some I've seen people criticise this and call it a cliche, and I've still not. And I've still not seen a legitimate argument as to why anybody would have a problem with this expression. But if you can't live your love yourself, then how can you love anybody else? Moreover, if you can't love yourself, why would you expect anybody else to love you? Yeah. And I've seen that knocked down a couple of times. And but as I say, I've not seen a legitimate argument as to why what so what is the argument you hear though? If you can't love yourself, you know, we're all we're always trying to love ourselves. Okay, that's your truth. totally appreciate it. What I'm here to say is, I spent 44 years not knowing what it was to love myself or other people, not the truest sense of love. Now I do naturally, my realisation was that it's not about a relationship. While it is It's about relationship with yourself, and the happier you are inside yourself. This also plays to becoming more attractive I think as well because that's a radiance that people's sense the more likely you are to attract that the similar energy you're looking for, in my opinion, now, I can only say that speaking from personal opinion, as everybody knows, you listen to the podcast, I wasn't open up opened up to love that is to say I was I found myself if we're going to use the expression here, and I was vibrating super high. Yeah, wasn't looking for a partner. And then I went for a coconut with this English woman called Julia Malcolmson. And I fell in love over a coconut with Yogi Bear didn't plan it wasn't even looking for it. And within 48 hours we lived together and and we've been together nearly three years and that and I've never ever had a relationship like this nor will I ever have a relationship like this again. I'm completely in love with Jules but in a healthy way.
Chris Siracuse 37:53
Yeah. And that's you are you and Jules are one of the few couples I know. I know lots of other friends actually. Makin Lisa Lisa's birthday yesterday shout out to them they've been together for about three years shout out Yeah, but you them I can think of like one other Rishi and Carl Curtis. I call him Carl. But I don't know your long story. He's not one of these days. No, no, I mean it is now but like, I appreciate ya know, they're they're great people but it's like the three the three couples and what's interesting is that there aren't many couples here but the three that I know and I'm really thinking I only know three that are like close friends right? Very stable. They it's it almost seems like if you're going to have a relationship and Bali like it better be stable it better like you better like you said love yourself well for for we get too deep into that. The Yeah, everything you just said completely onboard. I definitely recognise that with you and Jules, there is this I mean stability. For sure. There's a stability there's a comfort there's an ease there's a genuine appreciation for one another you know that I met Well, of course you know this but for the audience, maybe they don't know this. I met you through Jules. I remember the first time I met Jules she was when she's friends with Marta and my friend. We were at the sound healing thing at the yoga barn. And like right after I met Jules, she started talking about her partner. And that was my first introduction to Martin was Jules talking about her partner. I was like, Who is this dude? I wonder what I wonder guy this this chick dates.
Martin O'Toole 39:41
Well, that's pretty funny. She said that because I think a lot of people think that and then when they meet me, they go, you are not what I expected.
Chris Siracuse 39:52
Well, yeah, you're you're not what I expected. No, but that's one of the beautiful things about the relationship that Jules and I have. I think it's
Martin O'Toole 39:59
You know, I used to be in relationships with people with whom I fought a lot of, not physically, I hasten to add. But there was a lot of aggression, and a lot of unpleasant language and shouting and yada, yada on both sides. And I don't know, I was thinking about this the other day, and I don't know why I wondered whether or not you know, because people say, well, that's normal. That's perfectly normal. And, and actually, if you think about most of the TV shows and movies that we watch, well, yeah, I mean, it has been normalised by culture. But then interestingly, and you'll know this as a screenwriter, you are encouraged to to introduce conflict in every scene to keep the audience engaged. But actually, I do wonder how much of that has been subliminal programming for those who have grown up watching TV shows and movies and just constantly seeing that this conflict was normal, isn't it happens everywhere. Anyway, another minute digression. No, that's, that's interesting, though. Yeah. It's just an observation I had recently and I thought, actually, yeah, I suppose you could be. You could be forgiven for thinking it's normal. You know, now if I watch a movie, that's just all conflict, all shouting all swearing at each other, I turn it off. I actually can't watch it. And this is putting a dent in me. This is not how we it's not how we communicate. But I appreciate how few years back the environment I was from and the people I knew, and I'm not saying this has nothing to do with those people in particular, I think this is just life in certain places. It is normalised conflict is normalised in relationships. But the point is Jules and I are ying and yang very much so she's super calm, super, super caring, loving Yogi Bear. And I don't know what am I a ball of energy, I suppose is probably a polite way of putting it.
Chris Siracuse 42:03
How did I describe you early on? We met he was one of the first podcasts we did first one and how to die happy. I think I said like a Tasmanian devil. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, that and I think there's still probably a good, good analogy, although I don't. Yeah, although then I'm probably because I was always a Tasmanian devil, I think but I mean, more in the energy not Yeah, not that you're actually satanic. No.
Martin O'Toole 42:29
Energy. Well, and that is my energy. And I don't think it's an interesting thing, when you go through any sort of transformation, which we all do, and can any day of the week, because we're all subjected to the universal law of impermanence. Actually, throughout my entire transformation last few years, that's one thing that's not It's not disappeared, my energy, my enthusiasm, my, my passion, if anything, actually, it's, it's amplified. Now I have this insane gratitude for life. You know, you know this, when you're, when you're two minutes from, or two seconds from suicide, we've been there. You're about to end it all. And then you fast forward to a different emotional state and a different location Valley in our instance, then you do have a newfound sense of gratitude. When you're when you're right, a rock bottom. And you managed to drag your ass out of that in some way. Or you're helped out that then you can't help but have more gratitude, which incidentally, also comes from the heart.
Chris Siracuse 43:42
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, yeah, man. Just letting all that soak in Passover may pass through me. I was just thinking, as you were talking, that when I observe you and Jules, that you she has this way of kind of helping you channel that energy. I feel like like, she doesn't dampen it. No, even though maybe sometimes. It would be beneficial for the rest of us. Yes. I'm kidding.
Martin O'Toole 44:11
No, you're right. You're right. You're no,
Chris Siracuse 44:13
but she has this wonderful way of helping you, I think in the subtle sort of way. Channel that Yeah. And, and direct it.
Martin O'Toole 44:23
She does.
Chris Siracuse 44:23
And it's like very subtle. Jules is so subtle, but so powerful. I appreciate that about watching the two of you because I feel like you respect her boundaries. And that not just her boundaries between the two of you, but the boundaries, she seems to put up for you. I'm not I'm saying this, like your child or something. But I don't mean it like that.
Martin O'Toole 44:45
But everything you say is absolutely spot on. And I think we all need that. It doesn't matter what age. We all need that from our partners, but but I think it's the differences when it's done. Not in an attempt to control it. Not in an attempt to manipulate but it's almost to push a few buttons to get the best out of your partner, I think that's maybe the way to put it. Jules has this incredible way of just tweaking this and turn that on me. And then I'm optimised again. Yeah. And vice versa. You know, I do that for Jules Because, you know, one of us is up, one of us is down the other way around. So, but I think, you know, this opens up a whole other conversation about relationships, relationship dynamics, and what's healthy and what's unhealthy. We were having a conversation the other day, Jules, and now she's going to go away for five weeks for Christmas, really where's she going? going back to the UK.
Chris Siracuse 45:44
Oh, wow. You're not going, I'm not going.
Martin O'Toole 45:46
So she's gonna go and hang with the thumb. And, and she has, as always 5,000% of my support for such a thing. She's really missing a family specially a little nephew. She wants to spend some time with him because she's already missed a couple of his years, his younger years. I have no desire to go back to England. So I'm staying here and
Chris Siracuse 46:08
probably best for everybody.
Martin O'Toole 46:10
And well, I also do you know what, I shouldn't have a Christmas Day on my own just, I actually enjoy Christmas Day on my own. It's a good opportunity to play King's College choir Carols full blast all day, with nobody criticising it. I can do some roast potatoes, and like barbecue of fish this time. The dogs are going to enjoy it. You know, we'll watch some movies, yada, yada.
Chris Siracuse 46:31
I'm gonna come over and bug you
Martin O'Toole 46:33
know, fucking with my Christmas. Tree Christmas has been lying to people outside the house. Have we heard all about what you had planned for Christmas Day? That sounds awesome. We brought some fish by herself for me. I didn't even think about this for a moment. But y'all said, you know, it's, I just want to let you know that. It's, it's really cool. How you support me when I want to go off and do this sort of thing. You went away for five weeks? And I said, Well, what else am I supposed to? Do? You know? That's, that's my job. Yeah, babe. I'm cool. Yeah, I'm super cool. But But actually, as you pointed out, a lot of partners would have a real issue with the other half enough to another country for five weeks. And that's interesting. Because that then the obviously there will be lots of reasons for that. But ultimately, they're going to boil down to only a couple of things out they insecurity, mistrust, sense of loneliness. sense that you can't live without that other person, which is codependency. So I realise these are all very normal neuroses. And I'm not suggesting that everyone needs to, you know, should be Zen overnight. But But I would, I would wager that they are fundamental issues that aren't healthy. And they're actually more about the partner that staying than the partner is going. Yeah. And, again, that is a sweeping generalisation. Perhaps you've got a reason to mistrust that partner, perhaps they did cheat on somebody a year ago or whatever. But then you decided to stay with them. So you know, you've got core responsibility for whatever happens now. So I think the fundamental point is, and this comes back to the whole beginning of the question a little bit about how that happens. Somehow, if you are feeling those insecurities, that neuroses, whatever it is, you're and you don't trust your partner to go away for a few weeks, then, are you aware of it? If you aren't aware of it? Do you want to actually, do you think that's healthy? Do you want to address it? And then do you want to do some work? Because ultimately, that's about loving yourself? It's not about your relationship with that person. Yeah. 100% I think I mean, I, as I said, caveat, I'm no expert.
Chris Siracuse 49:02
I think you're right. I think you're spot on. i Okay, but my time pack here. Want to get back to something you said and this is kind of related to what you just said. I say that because I'm going to talk about Alan Watts now and if you like watts, like Krishna Murthy, Aldous Huxley, ROM Das, Timothy Leary. We talked about that and what's what so
Martin O'Toole 49:33
and what's well is Chris's podcast.
Chris Siracuse 49:35
Yes. Yeah, I should probably say those of you that don't know what the fuck he's talking about right now. Like what?
Martin O'Toole 49:41
Well, yeah, it's a great podcast, by the way.
Chris Siracuse 49:43
Thank you. So Alan Watts talks about how in the Chinese philosophy is that existence, the universe is a great drama. He talks about the difference between the Western religious philosophy and Generally speaking, Judeo Christian, where there's a there's kind of a controller that's God and it's more mechanical, you know, it's kind of hierarchical, hierarchical, hierarchical higher. I got.
Martin O'Toole 50:13
I got you. Yeah.
Chris Siracuse 50:16
So I think about that sometimes. Because if that if there is something to that, to the existence being a drama, then maybe what we're what you're describing here, with relationships between a man and a woman, that is an expression of that great drama played out just an individual level, maybe that there is there is something to that conflict, something to that drama. Because what else would we be doing here? If everything was hunky dory? And everything was like, say, I mean, to use the example you just laid out? You're in a relationship three years, your partner goes off for five weeks? You're totally cool with it. It's like, Alright, cool. End of story, right? I mean, every great story has to have drama. Yeah, otherwise, it's a short story. Otherwise, it's a short story. So if existence and the universe really is a great drama, like the Chinese believe it's, it's a dance, it's music, it's just, it's just flowing. It's this rhythm papapapa on and off, on and off, on and off, on and off continuously. Then what happens when we do reach that place? We're just like, everything's cool. I don't care if my heart
Martin O'Toole 51:34
What a beautiful question. We would all I think disappear from planet Earth and we'd rise from third densities to fourth density. That's the short answer, often density. So the great drama you refer to is called samsara. That's, that's what the Indians do believe that the Buddhists believe that we that we live in a chaotic cycle of suffering and rebirth, life suffering death rebirth, life suffering death rebirth, that samsara I can say, I'm sorry, we are samsaric citizens, you and I, but samsara isn't all there is? It is. It's the plane is the construct, I think is the better way to put this. Yeah, because if see a might feel chaotic, but it isn't actually it's by design. And it's a playground. So you obviously we're moving a little bit off off topic from romantic love here because now we must talk about reincarnation for a moment. The premise behind samsara is that this is why I call this place Erskyll I believe in reincarnation folks. Hang on, let me rephrase that. I know there is reincarnation the difference between believing something intellectually knowing it and literally knowing it, and I literally know it that's probably for another conversation. Maybe we should talk about reincarnation at some point but the point is that then samsara exists for us to recycle into to pop back into and the idea is of course that you forget your past lives so then you can relive more drama, more adventures more hero's journeys. Yes, the point, right. Yeah. And the premise is actually that the learning this is where it gets a bit more complex. We're all expressions of a larger consciousness the one where individual expressions of that one and we're actually uploading all of these this data back to the one why well because the one one day being the one that could do anything said What am I and that's how this whole thing began. But that's a whole other conversation. It's interesting though because then okay, I I'm completely on board everything said I think it's very well put. So where does romantic love fit into that? Because you great question. You could say that the the attraction to love the dynamic between a man and a woman is in some ways the ultimate expression of that at this physical level of that frequency of that frequency. Yes, it is. Yeah, yeah, it is. Sorry, no, no, go for it. Well, okay, so what's love to me now? I suppose was was love to mountain version 2.0 baby Don't hurt me
Chris Siracuse 54:41
Don't hurt me. No more. Such a great song living getting thing got you.
Martin O'Toole 54:47
I don't know what age it was when I was in tufts nightclub in New York dance into that but what I what I can tell you about that was it was was one pence to get into the nightclub before nine o'clock and it was one pound per paint. On October
Chris Siracuse 55:01
super cheap right one Pence is like a penny.
Martin O'Toole 55:03
Yeah, exactly. So like a cent Exactly. So you so you could go to Tufts nightclub on a Thursday night with 12 pounds, get absolutely shit faced drunk and buy a kebab, then the night and dance to word is love. Because that's another just another facet of love. Isn't it romantic love going to a nightclub and sort of this bizarre tribal arrangement where all men stand around looking women dancing and you know, there's anyone even market we can certainly talk about that though we should talk about that in a moment. So what is love? I think it's a frequency. It's, it's, it's a vibration. And and that frequency is oneness. It's union. It's harmony. Love that. I love it. And I think that's the mission. If you could suspend any belief about afterlife on you know where we're from, and yada yada. For a moment, I'd tell you what, I know that we've come from a place of unity consciousness, where everything is love. And I've been there. I've actually been back there on a couple of plant medicine journeys, and I can't wordsmith that I am I can't possibly quantify the feeling that you have when you're in this place.
Chris Siracuse 56:28
Yeah, well, words can't describe it words, no limits when it comes to No,
Martin O'Toole 56:33
I mean, you need a symphony to describe it. And that's an energy where everything is connected, interconnected. What are we doing here in a realm of separation? Well, I believe we are here to learn to love. I think I've talked to you about this before on the podcast, where I had this experience with meditation when in my 20s, and I met my higher self, what's one of them? And my highest self, I asked my highest self a question. And my higher self, I said, Why am I here myself said you're here to learn to love. And now when all right, cool, thanks, do. And then I came out of this meditation and went, what the fuck was that? And then spent, you know, thick under 20 years as a high functioning addict, and on some degree, or other and then it was only in the jungle in Bali, when I was invited to do a meditation to turn love on myself that suddenly boom, I got it. I realised I in a minute. Yeah, that's the mission, isn't it? So we come from unity consciousness where everything is love. And surely, the toughest mission we could give ourselves is to live in this place. Planet earth realm of duality, where there isn't just loved as hate, but there isn't as light light as light and dark. So if we can learn unity in a place that that with a constructional design that doesn't necessarily support unity, then we are on an incredible hero's journey towards emotional, spiritual or whatever word you want to use. Advancement. So that's what love is to me.
Chris Siracuse 58:14
That's dope. Super cool. Wow. Okay, damn. I say all these things. I'm like,
Martin O'Toole 58:25
what? You got
58:27
just
Chris Siracuse 58:27
walk away now. Anything else do that? No. Okay, well, okay. Yep, yep. Yep. So,
Martin O'Toole 58:35
as a matter of interest that resonates with me. Yeah. Very different life experiences.
Chris Siracuse 58:38
Right. So 100%. It really does. And as usual, thank you for your beautiful illustration and your insight. So this kind of gets back to our last. Was it your last episode too? For How To die happy? Yeah. The one before it was so worth the suffering that suffering. Yeah. So because, incidentally, yeah, we've been terrible at putting out podcasts. That's okay. You've been busy writing the book. Can we talk about the book? We can? Yeah, yeah. How to die happy books. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully have that finished in the next I'll finish writing it in the next four weeks and then need to get it in front of an editor. But she's taking up all my time at the moment.
Martin O'Toole 59:17
So that's okay. That's my my number one creation. So awesome. Talk about a lot of this in the book, by the way. Yeah, yeah. Check it out. How to die happy. Anyway, elbow and paperback. Maybe How about two? Let's see. Hopefully, I'm gonna do an audio version as well. i Sorry.
Chris Siracuse 59:33
Are you going to narrate? Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 59:35
I just we're really sidetracking now but I whenever I listened to a book, there's been narrated by the author. I feel like I'm I feel like I'm really getting it the way they intended it to be received. Really? Do you know? Yeah,
Chris Siracuse 59:51
I think that's so cool way
Martin O'Toole 59:52
they know again, sometimes most of the pity I'm not dissing anybody who does voiceover work for audio books, by the way. jolly well, On, but there are some some audio books because I listened to a lot of audio books. And sadly they're sort of tarnished by the by the narrator. Yeah, I could see that my experience of the of receiving that information. So they'll be like, yeah, yeah, this is like an mindful isn't mindfulness exercise, but your voice and your intonation is sort of taking me a little bit. Yeah, I
Chris Siracuse 1:00:22
can see that well, but if you do need a voice for your American English speaking audience, because you know that a lot of people won't be able to understand. You should hire me to do that. You want?
Martin O'Toole 1:00:36
No, I'm joking. I think you're absolutely right. And I think you'll do a phenomenal job. I've always loved your voice. I remember we first met here at Shala. We might hear each other. Oh, yeah, shout out shout out. We are Chela, by the way thanks to Marcela. Who if you hadn't word today owns Chela. Yeah. The incredible restaurant in Berlin is technically being vegan, for sure. Absolutely. That's where we're recording and filming. Diego's over in Chile. So hey, Diego.
Chris Siracuse 1:01:06
That's wonder I sent him a text saying happy birthday.
Martin O'Toole 1:01:09
Yeah, he's gonna see his fam in Chile. So we're recording from ceclor this morning.
Chris Siracuse 1:01:14
Now shout Yeah, shout out to them. Okay, so, coming back. Well, it is low. So, again, connecting to the last episode about suffering. Everything you were saying before, that beautiful whatever, not a story, but it was kind of a story. A universal story. The whole Everything is love. This is what I want to talk about. Yep. Okay. And I think we talked a little bit about this and the suffering podcast, I can't remember. But I think so if you if you equate in you or any of anybody, not just us specifically, if we equate love with creation. Yep. And this is again, kind of getting back to more understanding of love in a biological sense, or when we're talking about physics and
Martin O'Toole 1:02:06
what it also has a metaphysical
Chris Siracuse 1:02:09
slant to it as well, doesn't it? It does. Yeah. So below in that regret, because he's because love is a creation is is arguably the best, most profound example of love, right? Yeah, exactly. And, yes, so if that's the case, which I think we can agree it is love is creation, creation is love that, that that driving force that pushes all of life here, and maybe life elsewhere, is what we described as love that we do know that love and creation we'll talk about creation since we've already established the connection between creation and love. Creation needs, not only needs creation is the other side of the coin from destruction. So this is this is what I want to talk about. And I'm in no way trying to, like, bait me poke holes or bait you I'm not at all I'm just I'm very curious about this. And you don't do this, but I hear some people say this, they're like, well, everything is love. Right? Everything is love or everything needs to be love. I think a lot of people that are on the spiritual path, so to speak, that I've come across here in Bali, the obedient type. Sorry, I'm not trying to be derogatory. You know, you know how I am? Sorry, I can't help it. I can't help it.
Martin O'Toole 1:03:29
We all judge Chris.
Chris Siracuse 1:03:31
I know. I'm sorry.
Martin O'Toole 1:03:32
We all judge Chris. calmer, Chris.
Chris Siracuse 1:03:36
We all judge Chris. Because Chris is an asshole with a comment. He's talking to you about the ingredients. See the important punctuation? I'm like, looking around make sure there aren't any. Well, there probably are. There probably aren't. But okay, let's so the problem I have with that. Or I think the challenge I want to say a problem and not what you're saying. I think the way you say it is so perfect. And I just I wish I had you there like all the time just recording so I can just play it. Like this is jotted in your pocket. Yeah, yeah, you should we should do that. That would actually be super good. Advice. Yeah. Cuz it's so much it's got something Martin's got something for that.
Martin O'Toole 1:04:12
I am honoured.
Chris Siracuse 1:04:14
Yes, no, I absolutely mean and I'm not just flattering you because I'm like, taking a shot at the love is everything Everything is love thing, because I see what you're saying. Because the way that you're saying it is that there is a there is a place so to speak maybe a metaphysical place, place a different realm where everything is love but in this existence in this plane and everything is not love. Everything is not love so I guess what I'm getting at is that when you What do you think when you hear people say this because again another thing I really appreciate about you is that you do exist in that that world you know that kind of quote unquote spiritual world, but you're so grounded. I can have a normal conversation with you. You're you're down to earth in a way that I think is very rare for me. People that are so deep in that. So what do you hear when you hear people say that you just just take like, and I'm not trying to judge you? I'm just for the sake?
Martin O'Toole 1:05:09
Well, I suppose if somebody said to me what everything is love, I need them to, I would say in what way, because I need them to explain their point. I think I as, as I've expressed on many podcast episodes with you as well, the thing I'm trying to work on the most now is judgement. And I suspect I'll be doing it for the rest of my life, because I'm human. And as discussed, we live in a realm of duality, where judgement is just part of the construct. But if someone were to say something like that, I suppose I'd want to know what they meant. Because to say everything is love. It sounds nice. It's a sound bite. But what's what supports that point, because everything isn't love and playing back to your point, we live in samsara. This the cycle of life, death, suffering, and rebirth. So suffering, as we discussed in that last podcast is part of the construct. And actually, as we also discussed, so incidentally, if you've not listened to this episode about suffering, you might want to skip a couple of episodes back or maybe the last one, I don't know which one it was. But the point is, if we accept the suffering is part of the game. dukkha, they call it the Buddhists suffering is dukkha. And we also, we also accept that impermanence is part of the game, which is a Nietzsche. We can accept these two things as part of the construct in which we live. Now, we can accept acceptance, we can accept anything, and we can stop pissing and moaning about it. Maybe that was a bit judgmental. But my point is she you can we can just, we can surrender to it. We can accept it as part of daily life. And through doing that, well, is the thing. When I accept something that's causing me suffering, who am I loving?
Chris Siracuse 1:07:27
As a is it yourself?
Martin O'Toole 1:07:31
It is myself? Yeah. Right. So because if I'm, if I'm constantly Pom Pom Pom, pushing, banging my head against that wall, pushing my pushing my way against the flow, then I'm the only person I'm hurting is me. So actually, by accepting, and by moving with the flow, and by moving beyond whatever that obstacle is, or through that obstacle, I ought to say remember where that conversation it's not about getting over something, you've got to go through it. The obstacle is the way as the stoics would say, Ryan Holiday shout out great book. Then actually, I'm loving myself. And there is an alchemy to this, I must, I must admit, there is a there is a an alchemy in this place this thing called Earth, and I can't quite explain it to you. But when you do start to do that thing. Accept, forgive, receive and understand the concept of impermanence and flow anyway, and give yourself love and give other people love. In spite of the fact that we're in this realm of suffering. Well, conflict exists, you know, it's normal for adults show each other. Respect that truth. But there is another truth where you don't have to do that. Then there's an alchemy that happens and suddenly, life, I don't know, can't explain it, life gets a little bit easier. Things look a little bit lighter. Things sound a little bit more beautiful. And in answer to your original question, or way, way, way back, imagine if we were all we all had we all had this, this Zen perspective where we weren't conflicts and so on and so forth. Yeah, I mean, I've been there been to that place and ultimately is not here. So I think the idea is, and you obviously this is my truth. So people either buy into this or not, then it doesn't matter. They don't. But my truth is that we come here to have the tough lessons. And there are probably entities elsewhere amongst this universe are in the multiverse. If you like that gulf kudos to anybody that puts themselves for a tour Erskyll
Chris Siracuse 1:09:40
fuck as far as a crazy
Martin O'Toole 1:09:44
fucking nuts like the Navy SEALs, no Tantra dimensional two dimensional Navy SEALs, right. So actually, there's an argument to say and and you know what, forget that perspective for a moment. Kudos to anybody who is there is there will be no utopia on it. That's not the way people perceive it to be. Because if the word Utopia like that we'd all disappear and go off and learn a new thing, because it'd be nothing to learn here. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, it does.
Chris Siracuse 1:10:44
It makes complete sense. And I think you're getting to exactly what I was, what I was trying to get to. But as usual, my words fall short.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:53
And you do yourself a disservice. Chris
Chris Siracuse 1:10:56
Martin picks him up. And it's like, here we go. Christopher.
Martin O'Toole 1:10:59
Spat coconut water everywhere. How nice to know if I may, for a moment. Yeah, SEMA. But you know, when you're saying things up and mindful of any negative self talk as well, because we're because we I know what you do. You're doing it from it for a joke, but I guess it's probably you provide a great example for the conversation for the audience. Any Nevitt negative self talk is is a creation of internal conflict.
Chris Siracuse 1:11:25
Oh, I got plenty of that.
Martin O'Toole 1:11:26
Right. So and that's not loving ourselves. Yeah. But I also kind of liked the self deprecating humour. No, no, I do find it fun. I love self deprecating humour. And I'm the first one to and I also think it's, it's a wonderful expression of humility as well. It doesn't have done right. Yeah. And also, I need to keep myself in check. But I hear you and I appreciate that. I appreciate you. BM. I can be pretty arrogant. So you're also must a wordsmith and incredibly intelligent and articulate so I think, you know, this is, you know, I talked about self love a lot. And I, when I do it, I think perhaps some people may or may not know what I'm talking about. But it's quite an important point to touch on in this in this in this episode. Because self love isn't me standing in front of the mirror every morning, parenting, you know, checking out my abs, authority abs, by the way. 47 next week, all right. And next month. You know, you know what I mean? You know, I, by the way, I'm not criticising anybody who does that, either. That has apps that has apps that does abs. Now, I mean, I'm not criticising anybody who, who takes who takes that kind of observation of themselves into their sort of self love routine, right? But all I'm suggesting is there's a fine line between healthy love of oneself and narcissistic love of oneself. And it's, obviously it's perfectly fine to have ABS and, and have access to, you know, your spiritual self, you know, your self loving self, whatever. Focused on apps too much there, but that's okay. I'll get some
Chris Siracuse 1:13:14
pretty good May. Yeah, I actually just I go to the gym again last week. So
Martin O'Toole 1:13:19
I'm gonna I'm getting we're gonna get back to it because I realised through writing the book that there are three sections in the book called Zen and the Art of Earth rover maintenance. One section is on consumption. The second chapter is movement, and the third is rest. And I realise, buddy, you're not taking your own advice. You know, you've actually you've taken the foot off the gas on the earth rover maintenance front from a movement and exercise perspective. And hitting 47 As I will do soon, buddy, you know you there's more work to be done more regular work to be done. Anyway, we digress.
Chris Siracuse 1:13:53
We do. But the self love thing. Yeah. So where were we?
Martin O'Toole 1:13:59
Well, we were talking about self love and perhaps the next obvious place to go then is back to the point about having healthy love for oneself. what point is it a sensible time then to allow to open that up to other people? So you think you know you remember your the lady you were talking about the beginning of this episode? Suddenly, someone's found themselves and doing air quotes again. And then they're opened up, they're suddenly go, oh, shit, you know, I've got this whole new vibe, and I want to share that with people. And then of course, you're potentially you meeting these people on Tinder dates or something or I don't know. I don't know if we're talking about actual I
Chris Siracuse 1:14:45
don't know what you're talking about without Well,
Martin O'Toole 1:14:47
let me this specific questions do we have I know so what are you talking about live exam personally?
Chris Siracuse 1:14:51
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah, for sure.
Martin O'Toole 1:14:54
So I suppose the next question then is is these Folks perhaps throwing themselves out into the, into the world for want of a better word. Yeah. A little bit too early.
Chris Siracuse 1:15:08
Yeah. Well, I mean, we can certainly talk about my personal experience with it because
Martin O'Toole 1:15:12
well, yeah, I mean, we talk way too much and actually just FYI, everyone, Chris is like you said, is a he's a prolific data. Absolutely prolific.
Chris Siracuse 1:15:26
Talking about it. Like I'm a well known writer or something. No.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:31
One can make an expertise out of anything. Anyone practices enough?
Chris Siracuse 1:15:34
Yeah, that's true. I mean,
Martin O'Toole 1:15:36
done $1,000 of dating. I reckon so.
Chris Siracuse 1:15:38
Well, let me maybe Dating isn't the right way to put it. I am. Oh, I spend a lot of time with with women. Yes. That is That is true. That's safe to say. That's fair to say. That was a Yeah. Okay.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:53
I'm gonna put you on the spot. Yeah. Put
Chris Siracuse 1:15:54
me on the spot again.
Martin O'Toole 1:15:56
What are you looking for?
Chris Siracuse 1:15:58
Yeah, that's a good question. I hope no woman that I'm actually interested in ever hears this.
Martin O'Toole 1:16:03
Well, perhaps use this as a potential to to put out the best Tinder profile? Ever.
Chris Siracuse 1:16:12
I don't use Tinder that much. Actually. Well, I only have two here in Bali. You know what I do? Yeah, I know what you mean. Just like the Yeah, the Yeah. If anyone was looking to date, Chris, you know, this, this law you're about to say could be, like,
Martin O'Toole 1:16:29
gold.
Chris Siracuse 1:16:30
So what am I looking for? Okay, this is a very good question. I've thought about this recently, because people have asked me this.
Martin O'Toole 1:16:37
Well, I should hope so. Yeah. potential partners as well.
Chris Siracuse 1:16:43
Yeah. Well, you know, what's interesting is that in some ways, I've gotten exactly what I wanted. Being here, spend some time with somebody they leave in a couple days or a couple of weeks. It's perfect, right? It's exactly what I wanted to have something that's non committal. A connection as deep as a connection can be for just a few days or a few weeks. And then they leave, and I go back to my normal life. And I tell them, I tell some of the women that I've dated this, it's like, I have my close female friends. I don't really need you to fill that for me because my close female friends like that's where I get what I need as far as the feminine nutrients. Yeah, right. Energetic nutrients. Yeah, exactly. But if you were to ask me the question, What am I looking for? I would say that I want, I want two things. One, I want whatever it is, to be to be as natural as possible, meaning that I don't want it to feel forced or engineered, which is I want to get back to that point a second, because I think it's really important. And then to I want it to be neutral, in the sense that I want to like somebody as much as they like me, and vice versa. You know what I mean? Because there's nothing worse to me than having than somebody liking me more than I like them. Or me liking them more than they like me. I want that fluid balance. Yeah. So but to the first point about it being engineered, so I was having a conversation with someone. She's very lovely. She, she comes from part of the world where they're more conservative and traditional when it comes to romantic relationships. And English is not her first language. So she may not have used this word and the way that I understood it, but she said that relationships in some way need to be engineered. And I thought about that. And my first reaction was like, Oh, I don't I don't agree with that. You know how I am. I'm very
Martin O'Toole 1:18:45
wishy German. No, she's
Chris Siracuse 1:18:46
Russian. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. She's very, she's lovely, lovely. Yeah, very pragmatic. And but I thought about it and like I said, at first, like I was saying, you know, how I am I'm very, I'm kind of a maximalist when it comes to the hippie perspective, so to speak, just the flow, man, natural, all natural, you know, I very much reject any kind of human manipulation because I distrust the human intellect. When people say engineered, there's immediate distrust in my mind. I don't think that's how she meant it, though. I think that what she was getting out was that it's what I think it's kind of what I was getting out, which it's one thing to have the spark with somebody, you know, especially here in Bali, like we were talking about before the you, your, your heart just kind of turns on here. And maybe that's not an accurate idea of what's actually going on. But really, it's it's when the rubber meets the road, so to speak. And when the practical things come into play with a relationship that things actually do need to be engineered, so to speak. I use this word because that was the word she used. Maybe that's not what she was going for, but I struggle with that because Is there is part of me that wants to believe that it's just, it's a purely spiritual, metaphysical magical connection, so to speak. Yeah. But at some point, if you are going to have a life together, you have to consider these practical things. And that's so I guess getting back to you asking me what I want. I think I at this point, I don't really want to think about that, because maybe I'm just comfortable living in this transient. Yeah, way. Yeah. And just like, oh, just feel that magic for a little bit, knowing that it's gonna go away. Because I have a deep, deep fear and trauma around the the separation. It's always been very, very hard for me this idea.
Martin O'Toole 1:20:45
He's opened a can of worms there.
Chris Siracuse 1:20:47
But it's an important can of worms. That was Diego, I was like, Diego, what are you doing? I'm, like, cool. So because of that, we'll just sorry, I don't know, I'll finish off this thought because I have that. That deep seated trauma or fear of that separation, knowing the the impermanence. I've fooled to deal with that. I think I fully accepted it. And now when I meet somebody, I'm just I'm already prepared for them to live. And that's why this dynamic here in Bali, we're meeting people that are just here for a couple weeks or a couple months. It's so perfect for me right now that a few psychologists Yeah, no, no, no, it's very unhealthy. It's super dysfunctional. This is not
Martin O'Toole 1:21:27
the limit. There's going to be comments and q&a on this one. Yeah, no
Chris Siracuse 1:21:31
way advocating as this is a lifestyle. But I'm just I'm being honest about what I'm doing. And because of that, I'm like, Yeah, fully just just go be free
Martin O'Toole 1:21:40
to I don't know what to start.
Chris Siracuse 1:21:45
Jules is over there
Martin O'Toole 1:21:45
It is. Jules is over there somewhere.
Chris Siracuse 1:21:48
This is my way of kind of
Martin O'Toole 1:21:49
shes just finished a yoga class l You were, you know, you're fully laser. I know, I'm gonna distract you. We're almost done, right? No,
Chris Siracuse 1:21:57
I'm kidding.
Martin O'Toole 1:21:58
There is no time limit on the how to die. Happy podcast. There. Okay, question one. Do you do all of the women with whom you date for want of a better word up front about this? Is this something new, you set out? Do you set out your store straightaway? And say, FYI, I'm not I don't want to commit?
Chris Siracuse 1:22:21
Well, it's implied because they're leaving. You know, I'm always like, Well, I live here. I'm not. So no, to answer your question. No, I'm probably not as upfront as I could be. But that's the beauty of the this. But you're specifically going for transient? I wouldn't say specific. Well, well, another thing I should say here is that this is not just me going specifically for that. That's just what what seems to happen.
Martin O'Toole 1:22:44
Is this a two way thing? And I also I think an important point to is there's nothing predatorial about this, I think, yeah, if you're here for two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, and you decide to switch your dating profile location to Bali. So you're on, you're putting yourself out there. That's, I mean, that's cool. I've got no perspective on that one way or the other. Yeah. But of course, if you aren't doing that, then you are opening yourself up to people like me, Chris, to the predator, and I'm joking, he's not predator at all. But I guess you are, of course, opening yourself up to transit interactions, which, of course, will presumably therefore suit that woman as well. Otherwise, she wouldn't have made that conscious decision. Exactly. So there's no criticism in any of this. But I would say more and I don't know who these people are anyway, so I can't I'm not interested in having an opinion about them. But But I am interested in having an opinion about or at least it or digging deeper into what you just said that because because I wonder now I don't know how you feel about this. But I wonder whether or not this this this speaks of that psychological pathology? We were we were rummaging around
Chris Siracuse 1:23:56
most certainly does. Because let me give you certainly let me give you
Martin O'Toole 1:24:00
at least my perspective of me and how I used to behave because the only way I can talk about this is matrix. Yeah, how to die happy. So, something you said which I think is is worth digging into dig is that that's you this is by design for you. So these transient relationships are by design because you fully aware of the the impermanent nature of relationships, and you are perhaps scared of the emotional damage that impermanence could bring. Or go. You might be there for creating a safe sandpit for yourself sandbox as they were called in tech business so that you can control your environment.
Chris Siracuse 1:25:03
Yep, yep. Damn. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely 100%.
Martin O'Toole 1:25:10
But then that, from a psychologist perspective, and I'm not a psychologist, as everybody knows, but there's some. There are some common traits here for people who have who have experienced emotional injury at a young age. Yeah. And in in experiencing the emotion that you're a young age go back to my castle with a moat and the lasers and the sharks and the Turtles with a flick knivese.
Chris Siracuse 1:25:34
It's a great visual alligators,
Martin O'Toole 1:25:36
boxing gloves. The point is that I had to do that for myself, because I didn't have or for whatever reason, I wasn't receiving the right sort of emotional. Yeah, Mike Hussey, bro, thanks. My Castlevania. I wasn't receiving the right sort of emotional support, or dare I say education, mentorship, that might be a better word. Yeah. Guidance for sure. So then Martin aged 345678, to make it up himself 910 1112 into the teens into the 20s, where, you know, we're all very sexually active and yada, yada. And to 30s, there was still no one giving broken, Martin, any mentorship or advice about this stuff. So I had to create a construct for myself. And it was all about control. Why? Because I didn't want to be hurt, either. I didn't want to have my heart broken. I didn't want to. I didn't want to put myself out there only to be ignored or to be pushed aside. But actually, all I wanted was a cuddle.
Chris Siracuse 1:26:57
I don't want to cuddle?
Martin O'Toole 1:26:57
Well, I think you maybe do know what I'm putting out there. I'll just leave it floating in the ether. But I think there is a perspective here. And it may be that this is your life and what you're doing for yourself, you know, and it's not for anybody else to judge or to tell you fundamentally, I mean, I'm talking we're talking about judgement. So hard for him not to judge. And it's so hard for his not to want to just project some ego onto somebody else, you know, we see people doing things that we don't agree with. Or why don't we agree with them? That's there's a whole fucking can of worms there. I don't agree with it. Because of my life experience and my societal conditioning, my familial conditioning. That's why I don't agree with it. So there's egos in the way already. Yeah. And we don't have it. So I'm not for a moment saying, I think you're doing this for this reason, and therefore you should change and do that. But since you wanted to have this conversation,
Chris Siracuse 1:28:01
and since you know me so well, and you, you know that. Yeah, there's a lot of truth where you're saying, I appreciate that you say it, because you're right.
Martin O'Toole 1:28:11
Yeah. So So I guess I'd invite you just to, perhaps, bet any money, you want to have this conversation about romantic love and relationships, I'd invite a fresh perspective to review them and say, well, actually, what do you get out of them? You know what?
Chris Siracuse 1:28:29
It's a good question.
Martin O'Toole 1:28:30
Is it false relation, I understand that you probably having a lot of sex. I'm not wrong. am I Chris
Chris Siracuse 1:28:41
Moore, matter of fact, way of saying things.
Martin O'Toole 1:28:44
Thank you, Yogi. Yogi, bringing the coffee's .
Chris Siracuse 1:28:48
Now I got the four leaf clover and you got the fleur de lis feeder, Dilly? Dally.
Martin O'Toole 1:28:53
So I understand that you probably have a lot of sex, which of course that didn't,
Chris Siracuse 1:28:59
I can neither confirm nor deny that
Martin O'Toole 1:29:02
is ticking the biology box. Right. But also one must, one cannot overlook the psychological component to that. Because it's not just biology. You know,
Chris Siracuse 1:29:16
I'm not crying by the way. I just got some of my I know. Make that clear.
Martin O'Toole 1:29:22
For those of you not watching doesn't matter, but He's not crying. But there is a psychological aspect to sex. Of course there is and there is there's a there's a transferable transference of energy as well. And there is, I think, from a feminine perspective, distinctly more so a Woman Yeah. A man inside her that that isn't physical and energetic exchange. That is, it's profound and it's often overlooked. And again, you know, I've been very clear and open about my past, so there's no judgement here. But I used to I used to treat sex like it was, you know, just eating. Yeah, exactly like breathing. Yeah. And I was throw my sexual energy around everywhere. And I thought there was a distinct difference. That's just sex. She's She knows she's just having sex. I know, I'm just having sex, it's fine. We're just having sex. No, it's not the way it works. And ultimately, while there are and I'm not suggesting for a moment that that women need saving for men who do this, because obviously, it's a two way decision. But I think I am suggesting that, that a lot of people, men and women under estimate the energetic connection and the spiritual connection of what it is to create a sexual union like that sex sexual union is a sacrament. You know, it
Chris Siracuse 1:30:54
is it is and it's, it is potentially one of the most powerful things humans can do. You could argue that it is the most powerful thing that you
Martin O'Toole 1:31:04
will it is the art of the act of creation, isn't it? Exactly. Yes.
Chris Siracuse 1:31:07
Yes. Yeah, man, I I'm with you, and I completely agree.
Martin O'Toole 1:31:17
But he's, he's inaccurate observation. Yeah, it isn't accurate. And then therefore, but I'll actually allow you to ask the question that I answered for you, even though I asked each of you. What was the question? What do you get from it? What? What does? What are we extracting? Or are we extracting anything healthy? From transient encounters? sexual encounters, I hasten to add
Chris Siracuse 1:31:48
are we extracting anything healthy or beneficial? I guess healthy and beneficial are different in this context, healthy meaning that it's a it's a fair exchange, it's mutually beneficial in a way that's healthy, meaning that it's, it's productive, meaning that it's filling, meaning that it's it leaves both people feeling good, so to speak. I don't like to use that word good, but feeling positive feeling like they weren't neither person was exploited was an equitable exchange. Well, I mean, I would I would say that yeah, every time it is, it doesn't mean that it's healthy though.
Martin O'Toole 1:32:33
No, because I think also people will tell themselves that was an equitable exchange. Yeah, I got what I want. I came he came
Chris Siracuse 1:32:41
Yeah. But then it's very transactional. Yeah, exactly. It's
Martin O'Toole 1:32:46
it's such a terrific it's such a complicated situation complex because to ask anyone their opinion of it you would need to understand their say their psychological pathology. Yeah, well, I
Chris Siracuse 1:32:59
think that such error getting back to the what do I get out of it? Was that the question? Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:33:11
Well, maybe you should answer that question is something profound just
1:33:17
Chris Siracuse 1:33:17
What I do you know I think that I enjoy meeting people. I enjoy interacting with people I enjoy meet perhaps I enjoy this, this drama of samsara too much. Maybe I'm really in a place right now. Where I'm in I'm over indulging in that drama. Not that there's a lot of drama between me and people that I hang out with. Sometimes there is but
Martin O'Toole 1:34:18
well, I got a question for you. Well, there have been times when we've been out and about and we see a noose you know that a woman and she nods at you. And there's it's I dare I say more often than not this case is like a frosty exchange. And I say 10 today and you say another Tinder day,
Chris Siracuse 1:34:40
so I'm not always there. I think the the times that Yeah, I hear what you're saying though. So
Martin O'Toole 1:34:45
why are they why if it was a if it was a healthy Okay, let's meet up. Go to dinner bump uglies, as the youth would say. And then we shake hands thank one another for the transactional Sex and then we part ways with a big smile on our face. And why is it frosty when you see one another again? No, that's a good question. accusation. Oh, by the way, I'm just
Chris Siracuse 1:35:08
No, it's a good question. Well, I
Martin O'Toole 1:35:10
think that I've seen his penis.
Chris Siracuse 1:35:13
Yeah. I mean, that's that's part of it. It's like, yeah, it's, there's, there's something deeper going on there. And I don't mean deeper in the sense that it's a healthy kind of depth. But the pathology runs a little bit deeper, if that's accurate to say it like that. And the reason? Well, to answer your question, the reason it's frosty is because maybe it was it was too much too soon. Yep. And maybe it was under the wrong. I say wrong. It was under the the not healthiest circumstance. Perhaps it was alcohol involved. There was the No, not really actually, that's actually very rare. There's okay. For me, that's like, that's incredibly rare. It's usually just, yeah, that like almost never happens, actually, where I'm really drunk,
Martin O'Toole 1:36:06
or there's a more of a like a sudden crushing it.
Chris Siracuse 1:36:09
Well, yeah, I think getting back to how we started the conversation, that people that are travelling here, people that have spent some time here, the vibrational heart stuff that we talked about early in the episode, leaves you susceptible, like we said earlier, and I say susceptible intentionally, because it leaves people vulnerable to feeling that. And then me being here, me also feeling that me feeling like oh, well, it's it's impossible for me to date somebody here, but I'm human like anybody else. And I want to feel that I feel susceptible. I feel vulnerable. We both do we meet in that place. And then we're like, oh, whoa, wait. Yeah, maybe we should have taken our time with that. Maybe that wasn't a good idea to engage in that. Because we both opened ourselves up. We both felt vulnerable
Martin O'Toole 1:36:59
to the the furthest extent possible, right? And then
Chris Siracuse 1:37:03
we both felt not good about it. And then we both backed away to shame. And yeah, there's some shame. There's some regret. There's some. Yeah, yeah,
Martin O'Toole 1:37:13
absolutely. Well, I get that. And I can relate, by the way, and it makes perfect sense. And correlates with my previous experiences of just having casual sex with people too fast, or diving into things too fast. And then, and then finally catching up and realising, wow, hang on a minute. Actually. Yeah, there was a physical attraction or an intellectual attraction. But in reality, I'm not actually attracted to you. And you're or you're not actually attracted to me.
Chris Siracuse 1:37:41
Well, exactly. And that's, that's another thing. I wanted to say that since I've been here, and since my last serious relationship, my whole idea of what it means to be attracted to someone has, I wouldn't say it's completely changed. But it is I have a much. The irony of this is that I have a much clearer idea now of what it actually means to be attractive to somebody. I may not be practising it. But I have such a clear idea now. Because I mean, you know, there are a lot of attractive people here. A lot of young, attractive men and women. And because of that, I really don't even notice it anymore. I actually have gotten to the point where I'm like, Yeah, I don't care. You know, there's attractive women all over the place. I just walk out my front door, and I see attractive women.
Martin O'Toole 1:38:28
It is an incredibly bizarre place like that, especially where we live. It's very bizarre. It's an epicentre of attractive people. Well, yeah, I think obviously, the sun shining and bronze tan, there's a gym on every corner. And that's fantasy land and surfing. So yeah, I was fit as a fiddle, aren't they? So
Chris Siracuse 1:38:47
everybody's half naked. Yeah. So there's that but, but getting back to what I get out of it, I actually do just to maybe provide a little bit more context and like, give a little bit more to these experiences that we're describing it because I do know that that the people I actually connect with in a quasi romantic sexual way, I actually do feel very connected to them in a way that's not describable. And it's not it's not a completely random thing. The people that I tend to the women that I tend to interact with, there is there is some kind of drama that we're playing out there that feels very much like it needs to be expressed that maybe there is some kind of past life element to it. There is there is something that we know about each other. There is a cat has a cute little the periphery that we know about each other or that we need to that we need to work out, you know, some trauma, some drama, some issue that we're playing out and But maybe that is what I'm getting out of it is that I'm learning these lessons over and over and over and over again. Because either I have to, or I think I have to, or it's just purely physical. I don't, I don't know, I get I get different things out of it. Sometimes Sometimes I really just enjoy talking to people, and it's hard to date here. You know, I can't date in my friend group. Like, that's just not it's just not a thing. Because my friends are too important to me. I don't want to fuck up my, my dynamics with my friends. I love my friends in a different way. So because of that, I have this very, very hard line and say like, No, this is this is my, this is my friendship. This is my friend group. Like you're not gonna get into that if it's a romantic thing. You exist outside of that. I've got the walls up. So yeah, I get what anybody else gets out of it. And what we all want, which is some feeling of satisfaction, some feeling of intimacy, like you said early on, some feeling of connection through Yeah, connection working through these these problems and these traumas. Yeah. And it's, but I don't want that, you know, it's not sustainable at all.
Martin O'Toole 1:41:16
Well, I wondered when you were gonna get to that, because I think that's the that's probably my observation is having done that for many, many, many years. Yeah. And I did. I mean, I was, I did online dating was like, one of the first online dating sites there ever was.
Chris Siracuse 1:41:32
You're a pioneer?
Martin O'Toole 1:41:33
how old I am. I was a pioneer in Buccaneer
Chris Siracuse 1:41:36
you were doing the online dating when it was creepy. Exactly. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:41:39
We had to use a cassette to load up the internet. Anyway, and the world was black and white, but I think, okay, you said some great, great stuff that I just like to have a little pick over. Yeah,
Chris Siracuse 1:41:54
pick it over. Pick it up, pick it over?
Martin O'Toole 1:41:56
Well, the thing is, you're absolutely right. Every exchange we have is an opportunity for a lesson for you. And for that person. It's an event, or it's a story with several events, chapters who you like, and they're all opportunities for us to learn. And in that regard, we're all teachers and learners. I don't believe that anyone's more evolved than another and more enlightened, more enlightened than another we we've just got different experiences. different facets of our experience, make us more experienced in certain areas compared to others and so on and so forth. So we're all teaching each other well if the other is open to learning if they got an open heart and mind so this has to play out this whole dating game business in samsara has to play out as part of the point Burts you he was what they've done is don't say I'm going to paraphrase paraphrase Einstein, he said something like doing the same thing over and again and expecting something to change is the definition of insanity. Yeah. I would say mistakes only mistake if you learn nothing from it. I'll throw in the hat trick. There is no such thing as a mistake of failure there is only learning. Now assuming we come at it, we come at our life experiences our encounters with one another. With that with those little you know, pros on the shelf and we've gotten we've got an eye on him than I think we can we absolutely can take away some some great intelligence, some data from our interaction with one another. But it's if we're not mindful, if we're not self aware if we're not self realised, if we're not present. And then we're just diving into this stuff. Basically, because actually, it doesn't I'm not saying this about you, by the way. I'm just talking about I think a great many people now. We're fucked. We're emotionally broken. For us through no fault of our own.
Chris Siracuse 1:44:14
Yeah, and we're kind of destined to just keep doing it. We're just gonna keep going around in our head against the wall slamming
Martin O'Toole 1:44:19
metaphor Eunice's. You know, things
Chris Siracuse 1:44:25
again, Martin is not specifically talking about me. No,
Martin O'Toole 1:44:27
no, no, no, no, this is a much broader conversation. By the way I'm not I'm not judging anybody for using online dating apps for example, either understand that that's a reality of of life in the matrix now, but I do have to wonder when the hot the entire encounter all of the mystery and the fun. I'm gonna sound like an old person now, right? The mystery of the fun of seeing someone across a room or meeting them at dinner party or you know, meeting them in a restaurant. over a coconut, right? And you've never spoken before, and then you have to open yourself up, and you do that dance. And then there's a, there's a joke and there's a smile. And there's a joke. And there's a laugh, and there's, and then there's a shift in body language and you watch between you. And I'm not saying it doesn't happen in online dating or with apps. But I'm saying there's a hack. With dating. Yeah, there is a dating app. And, and I often, I often wonder how healthy that is, I appreciate that. People will say, Well, you know, the end of the day, I'm just using it because I want to have transient relationships, I just wanna have sex, yada, yada. And I'm not judging it. But personally, I having had hundreds of unhealthy sexual encounters, I can absolutely speak, I think with some experience, and say, with hindsight anyway, knowing, looking at the old version of me with that pathology with a different pathology, it wasn't healthy at all. And actually, all I was trying to do was distract myself, to control my environment, to manipulate, not necessarily consciously, not necessarily in a Machiavellian way, although some of these, you know, some of these things did play out in a Machiavellian way. But all it was all designed to make me feel better. In my sandbox, yeah. And actually had nothing to do with that person. I was learning nothing from them. Although I was ultimately I did. I did learn from them. But the point is, actually, I look back on all of those times now. And I think, yeah, they weren't healthy. Don't get me wrong. And I don't, I don't wish I don't wish them to unhappen. Because had I not done all of that mad stuff in my life, then then I wouldn't be where I am now. So I'm super bloody grateful to mountain version 1.0. And we've had this conversation. Thanks for Thanks for the gift of trauma. Everyone in my life, including him. Thanks. Thanks, buddy. Thanks for the trauma you gave me as well. But all that said, my perspective now with hindsight, is that it wasn't a healthy way to connect. And ultimately, what do we all want? I think we all want connection. And I want to die happy. Yeah, yeah. But we yeah,
Chris Siracuse 1:47:22
we all do want connection, because but no, this is cool. Yeah. I guess it's about how we get that connection?
Martin O'Toole 1:47:34
Well, there's a good question, because does does do we have to go off and copulate with someone that we that we've we've barely now so clinical to connect, you know? Well, you know, I mean, do we do we need the, the absolute sexual connection to connect? I don't think we do. And I And actually, I think, I think if we were to connect if we ask, actually seeking just seeking connection, not sexual gratification or control or, or some fucked up perspective of getting a cuddle, if we are legitimately seeking a healthy connection, and that doesn't necessarily need to involve romance, or, or what's the word? Combination? One night, one night stands here, coagulation. Do you know what I mean?
Chris Siracuse 1:48:27
I do know what you mean. And I think that yeah, ideally, that that would be it. That we would understand that there are many different ways to connect. It's just the the male biology, especially it. Yeah, you
Martin O'Toole 1:48:44
can't blame it on biology. Right? Your body ripe young
Chris Siracuse 1:48:47
age of 37.
Martin O'Toole 1:48:50
This is how you started. You provided the mitigation early on my biology.
Chris Siracuse 1:48:56
Super good.
Martin O'Toole 1:48:58
You can't blame it on my Oh, no, you're
Chris Siracuse 1:48:59
right. And
Martin O'Toole 1:49:00
yes, you've got a monkey suit. But the monkeys we talked about the monkey. Monkey, monkey monkey shouldn't be driving.
Chris Siracuse 1:49:10
Yeah, no, I think about that a lot. Actually. You saying the monkey now and I completely agree. And I'm going to take this conversation. I'm gonna let it simmer. I'm gonna think about everything we're thinking about my very wise friend Martin and his advice and I know nothing. You do know enough. I mean you're right, you know, now that I know now you will always be the way you and I are very similar. And because you are my in some ways, a mentor to me, which I think it's fair to say that you are a mentor. In some ways. I'm humbled by those words. But it's true though. Not just because you're a little bit older and not that much older. Pretty look great, too, by the way.
Martin O'Toole 1:49:53
4647 on November the ninth in case anybody wants to send me any birthday wishes.
Chris Siracuse 1:49:58
Yeah, man, birthday wish shows for sure. Yeah. Because you, you understand me and you know me in a way that I would think it's safe to say that not a lot of people do that I take your advice and your guidance seriously, I take it to heart. I know that you're right. I'm just I gotta, I gotta keep fucking things up for a little bit longer. There
Martin O'Toole 1:50:19
are some people who will be listening to this episode for whatever one hour 42 seconds and gone. He finally said it. Yeah. What about I know that you're right.
Chris Siracuse 1:50:30
Yeah, you're 100%. Right. I, but I your observation is let's not say right. Your observation is is very, very good.
Martin O'Toole 1:50:41
It deserves a rematch, doesn't it?
Chris Siracuse 1:50:43
Oh, it is there's more than a rummage. I mean, it's you painted a very clear picture about what's going on. However, there is the obstacle is the way so this is my obstacle, and no matter what, exactly no matter what you say, to me, I'm well, no, that's not entirely true. I was gonna say no matter what you say, I'm still going to, you know, keep doing what I do. Keep playing out. Yeah, but that's not necessarily true. Because you, like you said that we all are changing all the time, you have the power to change in a way that's more beneficial for
Martin O'Toole 1:51:16
hands down. And just to be clear, you know, I'm a huge fan of that can change its spots, and you can teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah, anybody says, Oh, he's never gonna change. He's never gonna change. Respectfully. That's your truth. But I'm here to tell you that's not the case. Anybody can change their lifestyle direction, in a heartbeat. Any age, anytime, any location, and actually more of as blooming grasp that, you know, and embrace the idea. We, I think we'd be in a different place. So yeah, I want that for you. But because I want to, I want to control the way you're living your life. I just know. I know. What alchemic beauty arises from making such changes.
Chris Siracuse 1:52:03
Yeah, absolutely. And you see, you've seen in experience, things that I have yet to see and experience. And you've you've Blaze this trail, and you're like, hey, it doesn't have to be like
Martin O'Toole 1:52:15
that. Surreal, isn't it? Yeah, it's Choice. Choice is a wonderful thing. And we always have a choice
Chris Siracuse 1:52:21
we do. And I have to say, to give myself a little bit of credit. I've been I've been getting better. I think I think there's a there's an awareness there. I mean, for me, and I think, you know, this about me, and anybody that knows me, well knows that there's never any shortage of self awareness. I'm very, I'm very aware. very introspective. It's just the other side of him. Right?
Martin O'Toole 1:52:45
I'm doing anyway,
Chris Siracuse 1:52:46
I can do.
Martin O'Toole 1:52:48
Yeah, but I suggest be mindful of that, though. Because we can, we can say, and I agree with you, I think you are self aware. But I think we can say that we're self aware. There are degrees of awareness out there, we can say that we're self aware. And it's almost it's it's a whole past, isn't it? Oh, yeah, it means I'm self aware. But I'm still doing it. But I'm doing it with with awareness. Okay. Does that make it any better or worse?
Chris Siracuse 1:53:12
No. Well, when I say I'm self aware, it's just like, Yeah, I know. I know. I know. It's not like to give myself a pass or saying, it's more just to say, yeah, yeah, I get it. Or there
Martin O'Toole 1:53:22
are degrees of awareness. There are absolutely there are degrees of acceptance or agrees or forgiveness or degrees of love. All of this stuff is a journey, you know, and that's why it's called the hero's journey, as far as I'm concerned. So and nothing you do is right or wrong, everything is perfect for you right now. Where you are just as it is for me just as it is for her in her so on and so forth. And this dog and that dog in that cat, but I so we are we're going to have a an incredible being on the show soon. Is a chap called Pak merta . Oh, you're
Chris Siracuse 1:53:59
gonna talk about your add on? Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:54:00
And so and he's one of my teachers. Yeah, I know. And he, he, for the listeners who don't know, is an incredible Balinese healer. This man actually cured himself of liver cancer through using his own meditation technique. And he teaches something called the top a Beretta which is a seven day silent retreat. Okay, so it's like the passionate for those of you that might be familiar, which is, which is the Indian version. That's a prolonged Silent Retreat. And it all is to say, I do wonder how you would get on if you were to completely disconnect because at this thing, there's no phones, there's no music, there's no pencils or pens or paper, no books. There's just Chris in Chris's head. And Chris in Chris's half the seven days, you know II Even even though you're meditating with other people, you know, even to make eye contact,
Chris Siracuse 1:55:03
right? Yeah, I'm familiar. I haven't. Yeah, I would. I'm interested. I've done things. Similar in concept on my own, not for that period of time. But I do very much believe in the power of disconnecting from everything and really letting yourself sit with your own thoughts.
Martin O'Toole 1:55:23
Well, this the obstacle is the way is that idea. Yeah. There. I mean, you know, people use the word Silent Retreat, often. Here they do, obviously, maybe where are you are in America, or England or Finland? They're not using those words. I gotta tell you, I even it through the words around like they were easy to use until I was day three was silent retreat. Yeah, just going on a silent retreat. Like it's nothing. And then day three in this thing. I'm like, Whoa, no,
Chris Siracuse 1:55:51
that Oh, yes. Three days of not talking, no eye contact with anybody. And I've even heard of the completely dark room. Silent Retreat. What's that one called?
Martin O'Toole 1:56:03
I don't know. But you can. Do
Chris Siracuse 1:56:04
you know what I'm talking about? About
Martin O'Toole 1:56:04
doing caves? Yeah. Anyway, perhaps Perhaps that's not for you right now. But
Chris Siracuse 1:56:10
I mean, it could be No, like I said, I've experimented with a little bit of that, but not in such a structured environment where it's actually somebody that's really holding me to it, it was more just my own personal endeavour.
Martin O'Toole 1:56:22
But you're also you're also learning a certain meditation. So yeah, that's the fundamental point. And it's essentially it's called the loving kindness meditation, I don't want to give it all away, because we're going to talk about it in episode with Padma, but it's you are, you are sending love to the universe, you literally Love Actually, the frequency, you know, you're encouraged to say May all beings be happy, which derives from the Sanskrit Lokah, samasta, Sukhino, above and to which means May all beings be happy, free and yada, yada, which we talked about in the last podcast. It talks about how my my actions have an incredible effect on others. So the point is, it's a selfless meditation. It starts with that, but then your directs into self. And then at the end, he invites you to, to turn that meditation in yourself. Anyway, I can. I reckon I'm talking about it because I had such a profound experience myself.
Chris Siracuse 1:57:17
I would love to do it. I would absolutely love to do it. Yeah, it
Martin O'Toole 1:57:21
was food for thought. Want to do it? We have rambled on for two hours.
Chris Siracuse 1:57:28
Already two hours. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:57:30
I know. I always feel like that when we have a conversation. I hope the audience does. Did you turn off after 35 minutes?
Chris Siracuse 1:57:40
If they did they won't be hearing this
Martin O'Toole 1:57:42
so you bloody missed out on some podcast
Chris Siracuse 1:57:44
golden didn't you know, Martin really dug deep, he got me to open
Martin O'Toole 1:57:47
up. Yeah, which is a rarity. So good on Yeah, and actually less what would have been that way. Last one thing I'd like to say actually, all power to you, kudos to you for the vulnerability and for the authenticity, you know, this is not a conversation you can crack and, and absolutely nail in two hours, it's, it's a conversation that we need to keep having, I think, but ultimately, if we are realising who we are, and how we're behaving, we are then exercising some level of self self awareness. And we are opening even a little little gate in the castle, you know, maybe around the back, you know, like sneaky exit out of the whole arrangement, then at least we're doing some work that begins to express vulnerability, that that opens us up to people because that ultimately, in my experience, when we've got closed hearts, that's the biggest, the most troubling job that's opening up. Yeah, I'm not opening up to you, you could hurt me. Because the poor bastard he was on the receiving end of that could be the nicest, loveliest person on the planet and they're grown. I'm not gonna hurt you. I've got good intentions. I don't know you, I don't care. You could be the nicest person on the planet. The reality is, you could hurt me. So what I'm going to do is I'm actually going to act in a preventative way, and I'm just going to stick the shutters up, and then you never gonna be able to, then you're never gonna be able to love me. No, I'm never gonna be able to love you. And am I loving myself by doing that?
Chris Siracuse 1:59:20
Yeah, I dig that a lot. And that's what I really appreciate about this. And then we can let you end the show, however you want to end it. But what I appreciate is that, like I said before, you're one of the few people that can really get me to open up in that way. And you've done a very good job of doing it. Like we feel like we're all alone here.
Martin O'Toole 1:59:41
We are in a restaurant, yeah, only by people.
Chris Siracuse 1:59:44
But we're having a conversation that you and I would normally have between the two in this restaurant in most restaurant, but it just so happens that this is this is gonna come up on the podcast channel and people are gonna listen to it, which is it's very rare. Like it's, I mean, the process of me, opening up has been going on for a while now. But I appreciate your ability to provide a space where I feel like it's okay to open up. I forget sometimes the people are gonna listen to this. And I'm like, oh, five. Dammit, Martin.
Martin O'Toole 2:00:17
Yeah, I'm over that now. When you realise you just you're telling your deepest, darkest secrets and thoughts and everything on a podcast, but I also think I am told and feel and also feel that it's, that's what people are finding so refreshing. Oh,
Chris Siracuse 2:00:34
yeah, exactly. It's beautiful. It's really a beautiful thing. So I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it. But I appreciate you coming on the show again. Yeah, man. No, it's so fun. I love that. We're doing it here at chellah. Yeah. And yeah,
Martin O'Toole 2:00:46
I know. I hope she hope she lets us do more here because it's, it's a really good vibe. Yeah, I would imagine. So I think it's quite it's a nice, it's, as you say that we have these conversations all the time in places like this. So the idea that it's just like you and me having a typical conversation. Yeah, but there are cameras and microphones here. That's what I love about these conversations. Yeah. Staged about this. There's not even there's no agenda. What are we talking about today?
Chris Siracuse 2:01:12
Well, yeah, it's so good. And yeah, the last one looked and sounded so good. So hopefully this one looks and sounds as good.
Martin O'Toole 2:01:18
Well, once I've done the editing, John is crossed my friend. Right? Well, what else can I say thanks to everybody for listening. Thanks to everybody for putting up with a lack of episodes. I fully appreciate that. One of the things as podcasters are supposed to do is is turn up regularly but you know, it's super hard work when you are
Chris Siracuse 2:01:38
writing the book man totally yourself some slack totally.
Martin O'Toole 2:01:41
But I you know, we love doing this and we still get people contacting us to give us phenomenal feedback. So thank you to everybody who listens to everybody who watches please give us a shout out on your social media please like and comment and all that other stuff that helps these algorithms. Give us a bump up and thanks to LIS thanks for listening to how to die happy
Chris Siracuse 2:02:07
Try saying that anything else?
Martin O'Toole 2:02:08
What do you want to say? I should have finished off with like love something to do with love.
Chris Siracuse 2:02:14
What is love? Me, tell me no more. Such a great song because that night at the Roxbury
